here's a note from 2006 on a notch filter for 12LTA plus a cabinet tweak
https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m....wmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=hug
I don't know if you would get the punch or not - BIB would go low - you need to sim and see the excursion in the 60 Hz region. 12LTA is a good driver for cheap (I paid $39 on sale) can't imagine much "hit" - "maybe" - -it seemed weak in K12 compared to pym1298 (~same as kappa12a) - I could feel a little pit of hit with a 250 watt amp on - you need treble power too. IIRC, 12lLTA's physical voice coil overhang is 0.08 inches, or 2mm - which isn't bad.
here's a video I uploaded a few years back - those Selenium ST324 were great helper tweeters
and maybe a nicer tone than titanium bullet tweeters (at least those from Audax). Lossy capacitors
such as paper in oil can be used to tame some situations
always use headphones when listening to Youtube videos of loudspeakers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpol8RZyvYg
I have that old/hacked diy K12 loaded with pyle pym1298 and topped with a K-tube - its a more intimate sound
than horns - although it doesn't go low, its does some things better in the upper bass than my K-horns or old Peavey FH1 setup with 511B and APT150
https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m....wmessage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=hug
I don't know if you would get the punch or not - BIB would go low - you need to sim and see the excursion in the 60 Hz region. 12LTA is a good driver for cheap (I paid $39 on sale) can't imagine much "hit" - "maybe" - -it seemed weak in K12 compared to pym1298 (~same as kappa12a) - I could feel a little pit of hit with a 250 watt amp on - you need treble power too. IIRC, 12lLTA's physical voice coil overhang is 0.08 inches, or 2mm - which isn't bad.
here's a video I uploaded a few years back - those Selenium ST324 were great helper tweeters
and maybe a nicer tone than titanium bullet tweeters (at least those from Audax). Lossy capacitors
such as paper in oil can be used to tame some situations
always use headphones when listening to Youtube videos of loudspeakers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpol8RZyvYg
I have that old/hacked diy K12 loaded with pyle pym1298 and topped with a K-tube - its a more intimate sound
than horns - although it doesn't go low, its does some things better in the upper bass than my K-horns or old Peavey FH1 setup with 511B and APT150
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Eminence 12lta:
Sd=532.4cm^2
Xmax=3.2mm=.32cm
One-way volume displaced = 170.4 cm^3
Freddi - I seem to recall it being simmed in the BBBIB thread, including excursion, but can't recall numbers off top of my head.. It certainly went low at 1w/1m, but yeah no idea what the "hit" would be like.
I'll check out that youtube link later at home w/ the headphones..
Options for the 12lta could include using it with a heavier woofer to pick up the low end, but it also needs that helper tweeter up at the top... so now we need a 3 way crossover, or line level crossovers and tri-amping... oh boy..
Sd=532.4cm^2
Xmax=3.2mm=.32cm
One-way volume displaced = 170.4 cm^3
Freddi - I seem to recall it being simmed in the BBBIB thread, including excursion, but can't recall numbers off top of my head.. It certainly went low at 1w/1m, but yeah no idea what the "hit" would be like.
I'll check out that youtube link later at home w/ the headphones..
Options for the 12lta could include using it with a heavier woofer to pick up the low end, but it also needs that helper tweeter up at the top... so now we need a 3 way crossover, or line level crossovers and tri-amping... oh boy..
I think the 3.5mm xmax figure was determined by 10% distortion method
70% BL ~ (Lc - Hg)/2 + 1/4(Hg) = x-max (70% Bl). 12lta probably has a 0.375" top plate
70% BL ~ (Lc - Hg)/2 + 1/4(Hg) =
(0.08/2) = 0.04 + (0.25* 0.375) = .13375 inches = ~3.4mm for 70%BL with 12lta
it you want power down low, it might make more sense to keep 12llta's cabinet small then add a powered subwoofer
rather than building two huge speakers. Maybe P10 would comment on making an aperiodic box for 12lta.
proper qts for an assisted B6 bass reflex would be 0.312 - DJK says estimate of Vb at that @Q would be 0.4*Vas. Fb ~Fs.
- an underdamped 2nd order active highpass with Q=2 at Fb would complete the system
Bill Woods made his little 70 liter chamber big vent reflex for 2226, etc to exhibit a bit of "hit" around 110Hz - which can emphasize cello, conga
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=21168&f=HIT-HRN2.gif
here's RCA-Fan with one of his "V-vent" reflex - its more like an Onken than a BVR
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=45536&f=bill_w.JPG
If I could move stuff around then could put 12lta into my 80 liter chamber V-vent box tuned to 41Hz
70% BL ~ (Lc - Hg)/2 + 1/4(Hg) = x-max (70% Bl). 12lta probably has a 0.375" top plate
70% BL ~ (Lc - Hg)/2 + 1/4(Hg) =
(0.08/2) = 0.04 + (0.25* 0.375) = .13375 inches = ~3.4mm for 70%BL with 12lta
it you want power down low, it might make more sense to keep 12llta's cabinet small then add a powered subwoofer
rather than building two huge speakers. Maybe P10 would comment on making an aperiodic box for 12lta.
proper qts for an assisted B6 bass reflex would be 0.312 - DJK says estimate of Vb at that @Q would be 0.4*Vas. Fb ~Fs.
- an underdamped 2nd order active highpass with Q=2 at Fb would complete the system
Bill Woods made his little 70 liter chamber big vent reflex for 2226, etc to exhibit a bit of "hit" around 110Hz - which can emphasize cello, conga
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=21168&f=HIT-HRN2.gif
here's RCA-Fan with one of his "V-vent" reflex - its more like an Onken than a BVR
http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=45536&f=bill_w.JPG
If I could move stuff around then could put 12lta into my 80 liter chamber V-vent box tuned to 41Hz
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
so at the 70% BL point, Qts is about doubled vs small signal. Hopefully that's only entered briefly like on a loud drum or bass transient.
I made a big mistake trying the Eminence 12lta. It is efficient and has a big bold sound but it did not sound remotely transparent. At least the vintage alnico Zenith, Cleveland, etc. drivers had very little coloration. IF I had to go with a 12-inch Eminence, I would clone the Spatial Audio M4 with a pair of the Eminence 12BX.
I guess it really depends on the overall sound presentation that you are after.
I guess it really depends on the overall sound presentation that you are after.
nice thread I have a pair of tang-bang 1772 in a bob brines design(see his web sight) At first I had the fostex fe206 but These always seemed to bright to me and the tangbang go lower They get plenty loud with a lot of thump especially when driven by my pass f6(still only 25 watts) I also have a pair of manzanita open backs with the peerless 830669 12" paper cone and the vifa tc9fd 3.5" full range these are a bit power hungry and I use them for my front L/R speakers( these can be built with all parts and pieces for around 500$ and have many threads here on DIY)
Unfortunately Bob Brines has gotten out of the speaker building and design business as his website (Brines Acoustics) has only 1 page and it states he has left the business.
John
Rock - Here's a big thread on the Manzanita:
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
Freddi - I'm trying to keep up here... what's "BL"? An aperiodic box for the 12lta might make sense.. That's P10's Em-ken I believe..
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/310270-range-build-12-driver-3.html#post5137979
Horizons - send me your old 12lta so I can play with it!
Seems to depend a lot on what you compare it to... My fishers are warm and bassy, with pretty rolled off highs.. so most things by comparison either sound "airy" (good) or "piercing" (not good). I imagine it takes but a few minutes for your brain to adapt and reset your ear's equalization anyway though.
Rock - those tang bands are beautiful, I'd like to just have one on my desk to look at. But Even those (as compared to something like a Betsy) I don't think would rock hard enough down low (for me anyway) to not use a helper woofer. I'm going back and forth on the OB design as to whether it would work for me or not. The requirement for it to sit 3 ft off the back wall is a bit of an issue for my living room - it's pretty full of furniture already, and is part of the "loop" of our downstairs (aka racetrack for the toddler). Thanks for the Manzanita idea though, the more ideas the better
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
Freddi - I'm trying to keep up here... what's "BL"? An aperiodic box for the 12lta might make sense.. That's P10's Em-ken I believe..
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/310270-range-build-12-driver-3.html#post5137979
-- well the room will get a big subwoofer for HT, but it won't (likely) be terribly musical. I'd like to use the juice from the receiver's amp if possible to drive the full range and helper woofer - if needed. 10% distortion (at xmax) sounds like a lot, I'm assuming that's pretty noticeable... As for Qes and Qts, what do you mean? On big hits the Qes goes up so overall Qts goes way up as well - is this a bad thing? Seems that this would help protect the driver by overdamping it, but I guess at that point you lose the "impact" of what was supposed to be a "hit"... is that what you're getting at?
Horizons - send me your old 12lta so I can play with it!
Seems to depend a lot on what you compare it to... My fishers are warm and bassy, with pretty rolled off highs.. so most things by comparison either sound "airy" (good) or "piercing" (not good). I imagine it takes but a few minutes for your brain to adapt and reset your ear's equalization anyway though.
Rock - those tang bands are beautiful, I'd like to just have one on my desk to look at. But Even those (as compared to something like a Betsy) I don't think would rock hard enough down low (for me anyway) to not use a helper woofer. I'm going back and forth on the OB design as to whether it would work for me or not. The requirement for it to sit 3 ft off the back wall is a bit of an issue for my living room - it's pretty full of furniture already, and is part of the "loop" of our downstairs (aka racetrack for the toddler). Thanks for the Manzanita idea though, the more ideas the better
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Eminence's Cannabis Rex might (???) be more "transparent" than 12lta - may be difficult to compare due to adding tweeters to both, and a lowpass for Cannabis.
I had an old Lafayette Japanese made SK58 coax - suspension just about locked from aging - small light coil, small light spider - beautiful midrange -= subjectively better than one of my old Eminence 15cx.
re: BL = "force factor" - interrelated with mass, magnet strength in the gap and voice coil details. According to the equation above, and if Fs stayed the same (a progressive suspension would have some change), then the 70% BL point would almost double qts, making for a mis-alignment, mush, possible boom and compression. I think 12LTA would hit that at xmax.
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_m...linearities–Causes_Parameters_Symptoms_01.pdf
@Horizon's - what is an Eminence 12BX ?
I had an old Lafayette Japanese made SK58 coax - suspension just about locked from aging - small light coil, small light spider - beautiful midrange -= subjectively better than one of my old Eminence 15cx.
re: BL = "force factor" - interrelated with mass, magnet strength in the gap and voice coil details. According to the equation above, and if Fs stayed the same (a progressive suspension would have some change), then the 70% BL point would almost double qts, making for a mis-alignment, mush, possible boom and compression. I think 12LTA would hit that at xmax.
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_m...linearities–Causes_Parameters_Symptoms_01.pdf
@Horizon's - what is an Eminence 12BX ?
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yeah - I like EM's coaxial - have the 12 in 54, 80 and 109oz magnet versions -
the 80oz model is the most sensitive (about 6-8dB moreso than w8-1772 )- ihad an allpass network (12uF/0.5mH - 12uF/0.5mH on one s cxome years ago which seemed to make the CD and woofer "snap" into focus
here's the 54oz model made for a sealed box application
rear of 109oz 12cx - (it sports a rectangular horn like E-V's "CDP" re-entrant speaker) - its only about 97dB
but mms is ~53g - which is good for a 4-inch voice coil with 4.6mm overhang
the 80oz model is the most sensitive (about 6-8dB moreso than w8-1772 )- ihad an allpass network (12uF/0.5mH - 12uF/0.5mH on one s cxome years ago which seemed to make the CD and woofer "snap" into focus
here's the 54oz model made for a sealed box application
rear of 109oz 12cx - (it sports a rectangular horn like E-V's "CDP" re-entrant speaker) - its only about 97dB
but mms is ~53g - which is good for a 4-inch voice coil with 4.6mm overhang
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A short-vent EM-Ken pushes the BR towards aperiodic and will give good output in th erange GM specified for punch at the expense of llooowww bass. Our ap for this is small PA, still looking for a good, efficient, LF support driver.
dave
Hi
I think you are on the right track. I ate carpet and theorized about bigger fr's after auditioning & owning a fair no of smaller fr's including quality time with Coral beta 8's.
Conclusion after scoring a pair of Philips 12 in fr's in 125 litre immaculate cabs with super tweeters.
No contest bigger is WAY better. They equaled and in some ways bettered my Tannoy Canterbuy SE's sounding more immediate or Live with faster transient attack. Initial purchase was $20 +$10 petrol to pick em up. Ok I ended up spending $200 all up for a filter network to tame the the peaky top end of the Philips & replace the T0160 tweeters with S/H Fostex bullets.
They sounded absolutely awesome. Sold a pair of vintage Seas TV 30 12's to a guy in Sydney last week also very happy. They start rolling off around 6KHz but smooth as butter till then in a way most modern incarnations simply FAIL! Add a Fostex bullet for cheap in price but no way cheap in sound audio fun. Under priced and underrated but not for much longer I suspect. Quite a few of my friends earn their living in audio so I know good sound. I should as they use my studio monitors for mastering.
Eminence are 12 LT's are good but I suspect you may find them lacking refinement if your main diet is classical. OK one respect that the Tannoys ruled compared to rest mentioned is bass slam. But the police no longer pay me unwelcome visits at similar volume levels.
The Seas are brilliant and if you get a good pair offer no nasty peaks in the response that make mating with a super tweeter very easy. Check out Troel Gravesons work on the smaller blackcones of the same Seas model range.
Whatever you decide enjoy the music. Cheers
BTW If you want a modern 12 fr the Fanes latest incarnations might be a little easier to work with and a little more refined BUT..... Your Milage May Vary
I think you are on the right track. I ate carpet and theorized about bigger fr's after auditioning & owning a fair no of smaller fr's including quality time with Coral beta 8's.
Conclusion after scoring a pair of Philips 12 in fr's in 125 litre immaculate cabs with super tweeters.
No contest bigger is WAY better. They equaled and in some ways bettered my Tannoy Canterbuy SE's sounding more immediate or Live with faster transient attack. Initial purchase was $20 +$10 petrol to pick em up. Ok I ended up spending $200 all up for a filter network to tame the the peaky top end of the Philips & replace the T0160 tweeters with S/H Fostex bullets.
They sounded absolutely awesome. Sold a pair of vintage Seas TV 30 12's to a guy in Sydney last week also very happy. They start rolling off around 6KHz but smooth as butter till then in a way most modern incarnations simply FAIL! Add a Fostex bullet for cheap in price but no way cheap in sound audio fun. Under priced and underrated but not for much longer I suspect. Quite a few of my friends earn their living in audio so I know good sound. I should as they use my studio monitors for mastering.
Eminence are 12 LT's are good but I suspect you may find them lacking refinement if your main diet is classical. OK one respect that the Tannoys ruled compared to rest mentioned is bass slam. But the police no longer pay me unwelcome visits at similar volume levels.
The Seas are brilliant and if you get a good pair offer no nasty peaks in the response that make mating with a super tweeter very easy. Check out Troel Gravesons work on the smaller blackcones of the same Seas model range.
Whatever you decide enjoy the music. Cheers
BTW If you want a modern 12 fr the Fanes latest incarnations might be a little easier to work with and a little more refined BUT..... Your Milage May Vary
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It is a wild driver. Took a lot of work to get them sounding OK. Big jumpp when i finally EnABLed them. You can see ours with th ebig whizzer in the Em-Ken i posted earlier. This one of the newer small whizzers for a customer. Prototype plugs made from plumbing pipe with a block of wood in the end to attach screws to.
dave
The discussion of bass is the most critical aspect of fr's. You don't see too many meaningful distortion measurements below 200 Hz with good reason. In most cases its a horror movie. The reality is that most simply don't cut it in this region. The way to go is to find the best compromise balance you can live with. That might be go fr initially with a higher roll off. Then add stereo subs later. Mono sucks even at low XO. Integration will then be a whole new adventure for you.
Everything considered, pros and cons, cabinet size and complexity, choice of driver/price, I think that it might not be a bad idea to build an ML-TL with Eminence 12 lta, just to get the taste of it and see if that approach is worth refining further. At least, it should not cost much, so no big pain even if disliked and scrapped...
Freddi - I like the heavier Eminence CX drivers in theory; a heavier driver to mash out some real bass while the coax compression driver handles the highs, all point source and no doubt could be made to sound good. But the CD can't be crossed low enough to make it a real full range.. so the crossover point is somewhere in that crucial vocal range, which is a bit of a bummer... Is there something lost there then, compared to a full range? I even like the look of the coax drivers, especially that one eminence that has the square horn build in - looks kinda reminiscent of that Altec 604 that GM posted - cool! But how does it actually sound? [Granted, I started this whole adventure wanting to build some Khorn clones or similar, so at that point I had accepted that there would be crossovers in the crucial freq range (or I didn't know any better at the time)...]
Re: Allpass Filter, I'm still reading and learning; this was used to account for the time delay of the CD mounted behind the woofer?
I need a million dollars and a million hours of free time to try them all!
Dave - The Em-Ken still sounds like a nice option, if used with a helper woofer of some kind. Any opinion on how the bass coming out the Em-ken vents would overlap with a helper woofer? Ideally the Em-Ken would sit right on top of the helper woofer enclosure to minimize the footprint, and that would raise the height of the Em-ken driver as well... So the helper woofer enclosure would need to be at least the size of the Em-ken cabinet. Are we talking a simple bass-reflex woofer, sealed box woofer, H-frame OB woofer (3ft from wall requirement may have killed that idea), or other ML/ML-TL/TL/Horn design?
The Fane 250tc 12" does look nicer on paper (at least to my eye) than the venerable 12lta, but I'm really only basing that on the frequency plots.
Audiopath - You guys down under eat carpet often? Never heard that saying before!
I haven't come across any Phillips 12" full rangers in my travels yet.. I assume these are vintage drivers though, possibly alnicos? Not sure how long that sort of period driver would handle a modern (semi-modern anyway) amp, pushing more power than was possible at the time. Bet they sound great on a tube amp though.
Main diet here is not classical, but it is played occasionally; mostly play rock/pop/country/jazz/electronic - most of which requires that "bass slam" you speak of to sound right. To my ears, anyway. Pretty sure the Tannoys are out of my price reach... I suspect the same of the Seas drivers. Looking more into that Fane 12" 250tc, I keep forgetting about it with all the talk about the 12lta.
Vix - which ML-TL design with the 12lta did you have in mind? I'd like to prototype a few ideas in OSB/spray paint to see what I like, but lack the time to do much of this experimenting...
I'm still trying to reckon whether the 12lta (or Fane 250tc) would truly move enough air to provide sufficient "punch", go low enough, and loud enough that a helper woofer wouldn't be required - even in something massive like a BBBIB or that big Maria Chang for the 12". I could prooooobably manage to get two big cabinets like that in the living room without causing marital distress.. but can't add two big woofer cabinets later when it's not enough.. Ha! *(Nevermind the giant HT sub that will be build in the future)
You guys all live too far away for me to have a listen to your setups so I can have something to base a decision on - feel free to move to Ohio, USA, it's nice here
Still Open to ideas concerning what full range driver to run, in what type of cabinet/enclosure, with or without what kind of helper woofer... (and probably passive crossover if helper woofer needed) on a budget.
Currently leaning towards the Fane 12" (unless the t/s specs make the 12lta or other driver more suitable), in a box of some kind (since OB requires being well away from walls) which either 1.) provides such awesome full range response at volume=11 that no helper woofer is needed, or 2.) A box that really nails the response from 16k down to the crossover to the helper woofer (somewhere 80-200 hz?), which also puts the driver at sitting ear height whether on its own or stacked on top of helper woofer depending on whether it's needed or not (or all combined into one cabinet)...
The Fane 12" appears to not even need a supertweeter?
Re: Allpass Filter, I'm still reading and learning; this was used to account for the time delay of the CD mounted behind the woofer?
I need a million dollars and a million hours of free time to try them all!
Dave - The Em-Ken still sounds like a nice option, if used with a helper woofer of some kind. Any opinion on how the bass coming out the Em-ken vents would overlap with a helper woofer? Ideally the Em-Ken would sit right on top of the helper woofer enclosure to minimize the footprint, and that would raise the height of the Em-ken driver as well... So the helper woofer enclosure would need to be at least the size of the Em-ken cabinet. Are we talking a simple bass-reflex woofer, sealed box woofer, H-frame OB woofer (3ft from wall requirement may have killed that idea), or other ML/ML-TL/TL/Horn design?
The Fane 250tc 12" does look nicer on paper (at least to my eye) than the venerable 12lta, but I'm really only basing that on the frequency plots.
Audiopath - You guys down under eat carpet often? Never heard that saying before!
I haven't come across any Phillips 12" full rangers in my travels yet.. I assume these are vintage drivers though, possibly alnicos? Not sure how long that sort of period driver would handle a modern (semi-modern anyway) amp, pushing more power than was possible at the time. Bet they sound great on a tube amp though.
Main diet here is not classical, but it is played occasionally; mostly play rock/pop/country/jazz/electronic - most of which requires that "bass slam" you speak of to sound right. To my ears, anyway. Pretty sure the Tannoys are out of my price reach... I suspect the same of the Seas drivers. Looking more into that Fane 12" 250tc, I keep forgetting about it with all the talk about the 12lta.
Vix - which ML-TL design with the 12lta did you have in mind? I'd like to prototype a few ideas in OSB/spray paint to see what I like, but lack the time to do much of this experimenting...
I'm still trying to reckon whether the 12lta (or Fane 250tc) would truly move enough air to provide sufficient "punch", go low enough, and loud enough that a helper woofer wouldn't be required - even in something massive like a BBBIB or that big Maria Chang for the 12". I could prooooobably manage to get two big cabinets like that in the living room without causing marital distress.. but can't add two big woofer cabinets later when it's not enough.. Ha! *(Nevermind the giant HT sub that will be build in the future)
You guys all live too far away for me to have a listen to your setups so I can have something to base a decision on - feel free to move to Ohio, USA, it's nice here
Still Open to ideas concerning what full range driver to run, in what type of cabinet/enclosure, with or without what kind of helper woofer... (and probably passive crossover if helper woofer needed) on a budget.
Currently leaning towards the Fane 12" (unless the t/s specs make the 12lta or other driver more suitable), in a box of some kind (since OB requires being well away from walls) which either 1.) provides such awesome full range response at volume=11 that no helper woofer is needed, or 2.) A box that really nails the response from 16k down to the crossover to the helper woofer (somewhere 80-200 hz?), which also puts the driver at sitting ear height whether on its own or stacked on top of helper woofer depending on whether it's needed or not (or all combined into one cabinet)...
The Fane 12" appears to not even need a supertweeter?
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Yeah, based on published specs, best overall mid-bass 'punch' is ~95.5 L tuned to actual Fs.
Re usable excursion, when Xlim is known, [Xmax*Xlim]^0.5 = ~5 mm for the 12LTA, so power limit with the above alignment will be ~100 W/30 Hz.
GM
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