Hi sbcrx007 sorry about the my use of cultural venaculars. Eating carpet is a referral to armchair activities like web surfing or listening to your stereo.
I prefer the taste of pure wool shag pile myself.
The Tannoys are no longer with me and most likely are out of most punters price ranges @ $25 000 Aussie dollars. The Seas sold for $120 + $25 postage Au so not at all expensive The Philips were 12100 W4 or 8 I forget but were unusual as I found little in reference to the model no as a full range driver anyway. But that was what it was. I also moved these on to a happy customer in Queensland (north of Aust next to the great barrier reef). Funny thing is with the Philips drivers to my ears I didn't miss the extra slam compared to the Tannoys at all. I also made presumptions prior that bigger 12 inch full rangers would not be as good as smaller full range drivers but after modding them with a filter network based on the Troels Graveson blackcone project and Fostex bullet tweeters they stripped away my misconceptions based on theory. Truly excellent and ran happily with a Yamaha P2350 with 175 watts a side @ 8 Ohms. Just had to be careful with the loud dial on the pre amp. These type of speakers will blow you through your back wall with just 25 watts rms power handling.
They are very efficient with low mass cones and rising response with frequency. Don't make the same mistake I did and create theories in my head without actual experience. When I compared the Philips to the high end Tannoys I was not exaggerating or kidding. Yes IMHO they don't give up much aside from Imaging that was like a giant set of high end headphones with the Tannoys (very little equals them in that regard) and bass slam due to a 140-60gram cone vs a 46 or so gram for the Philips. But we are talking about a $200 pair of speakers that can hold their head up high compared with an audio icon and legend. The advice you have received here is solid.
Find a way to audition your prospects so you gain more confidence in which way you wish to proceed.
Cheers Mark
I prefer the taste of pure wool shag pile myself.
The Tannoys are no longer with me and most likely are out of most punters price ranges @ $25 000 Aussie dollars. The Seas sold for $120 + $25 postage Au so not at all expensive The Philips were 12100 W4 or 8 I forget but were unusual as I found little in reference to the model no as a full range driver anyway. But that was what it was. I also moved these on to a happy customer in Queensland (north of Aust next to the great barrier reef). Funny thing is with the Philips drivers to my ears I didn't miss the extra slam compared to the Tannoys at all. I also made presumptions prior that bigger 12 inch full rangers would not be as good as smaller full range drivers but after modding them with a filter network based on the Troels Graveson blackcone project and Fostex bullet tweeters they stripped away my misconceptions based on theory. Truly excellent and ran happily with a Yamaha P2350 with 175 watts a side @ 8 Ohms. Just had to be careful with the loud dial on the pre amp. These type of speakers will blow you through your back wall with just 25 watts rms power handling.
They are very efficient with low mass cones and rising response with frequency. Don't make the same mistake I did and create theories in my head without actual experience. When I compared the Philips to the high end Tannoys I was not exaggerating or kidding. Yes IMHO they don't give up much aside from Imaging that was like a giant set of high end headphones with the Tannoys (very little equals them in that regard) and bass slam due to a 140-60gram cone vs a 46 or so gram for the Philips. But we are talking about a $200 pair of speakers that can hold their head up high compared with an audio icon and legend. The advice you have received here is solid.
Find a way to audition your prospects so you gain more confidence in which way you wish to proceed.
Cheers Mark
Minor misalignment can sometimes be worked out of a rising rate suspension [doped accordian surround] by placing the driver face up [or down or both] in warm/hot noonday sun and driving it with a VLF sine. Did this the other week with a pair of NOS 421-8H that had bottomed out from roasting in the attic too long.
GM
Is there a simple formula to arrive at that 95.5L volume, or is that a result from a spreadsheet or speaker box program?
I'd like to compare the 12lta and Fane 250-tc.
Usable excursion would certainly be nice to know.. that's at something less than 10% thd then, as Eminence quotes 10% @ Xmax. That usable excursion of 5mm could be used in my earlier displacment calc - though you'd need that value for any other drivers to compare fairly with, and I don't see Xlim quoted on the Fane 250tc cutsheet.
Then, for 12lta:
Sd=532.4cm^2
usable excursion=5mm=.5cm
One-way volume displaced = 266.2 cm^3
What does this mean, "power limit with the above alignment will be ~100 W/30 Hz"?
100w per 30hz? 100w @ 30hz? The latter makes more sense, but I'd like to understand how you got there and what it means..
The pioneers were primarily electrical, mechanical engineers, so finding the 'sweet spot' to acoustically offset driver compliance [Vas in T/S parlance] it was determined that Vas/1.44 was the theoretical optimum, which in turn means that in a closed box, Fs increases by 1.56x, so when calculating Vas using the added mass procedure, then enough should be added to lower Fs by 1.56x to get the most accurate measurement.
Tuning was always at Fs due to the need to optimize bass, tube amp loading, so only an issue nowadays if driven with a SET or similar, i.e. can be tuned per T/S if desired with other amp types.
??? The 5 mm limit will have considerably more distortion, though with 10% being the point where the average person starts to notice it, the mean calculation is the point where one hears an obvious 'flattening'/'drawing out' of the signal, beginning of audible 'stress' in the suspension, so strictly for 'fast' [high amplitude] transients and accept they will be 'clipped', with a true low distortion signal being where the excursion is < ~1 mm.
In this case it means that if driven beyond 5 mm/30 Hz [which Hornresp calcs at 100 W] for any reason you risk either bouncing the VC off the back plate or 'cocking'/dragging the VC in the bore on the compression [forward] stroke.
GM
Tuning was always at Fs due to the need to optimize bass, tube amp loading, so only an issue nowadays if driven with a SET or similar, i.e. can be tuned per T/S if desired with other amp types.
??? The 5 mm limit will have considerably more distortion, though with 10% being the point where the average person starts to notice it, the mean calculation is the point where one hears an obvious 'flattening'/'drawing out' of the signal, beginning of audible 'stress' in the suspension, so strictly for 'fast' [high amplitude] transients and accept they will be 'clipped', with a true low distortion signal being where the excursion is < ~1 mm.
In this case it means that if driven beyond 5 mm/30 Hz [which Hornresp calcs at 100 W] for any reason you risk either bouncing the VC off the back plate or 'cocking'/dragging the VC in the bore on the compression [forward] stroke.
GM
There are so many other ractors in the design od a speaker that that is meaningless.
Yes. The lack of XO up tha high is often one of the attributes that full ranges have that makes them special.
More or less. Without the need to look for hi-efficiency you can probably get away with a smaller box, and the vertical placement of the driver in the EM-Ken is not overlly critical so can be adjusted to suit the height with another box underneath. Do keep in mind, with GM’s definition, the “punch” range is still covered by the Em-Ken, and the woofer will fill in only the deep stuff, and relief from heavy lifting will help the midTop — not a bad thing at all.
dave
Audiopath - No worries mate! 
Local color is great, it'd be pretty boring otherwise!
I'll have to do some reading on that Troels Graveson blackcone project... I'm on a bit of a learning curve here, as you can see.
Not sure how I'd audition any of these... Parts Express is actually in Ohio, but hours away and there isn't typically time for such field trips. I was sort of hoping that there would happen to be a local DIYer that had already gone down this path and had boxes and drivers laying around to try out and listen to.
Scott - I'm trying to keep that in mind as well, yes... That's a real concern if I just run one of the 12 FR as a true FR and crank up the vol/bass. Less of a concern if I use a helper woofer, which it sounds like I probably do, despite all the compliments on some of the TL/Horn designs. I'm thinking of a quote from the 12lta BIB, something like "Subwoofers need not apply" from one fellow who built them... I'm somewhat doubtful of that assessment, though he (Eekatus or something like that) seemed to have room after room filled with large speakers of all sorts...
GM, thank you for further explanation and input. Learning in bits and pieces...
So maybe a crossover around 150 would net a similar punch here, though at 80 watts a channel I'm not pushing the power that I was with the car system.
Here's some more info and response plots on the Fane 250tc (and apparently it's a double whizzer cone, interesting..)
https://forum.speakerplans.com/fane-12250tc-full-rangers_topic89634_page5.html
Local color is great, it'd be pretty boring otherwise!I'll have to do some reading on that Troels Graveson blackcone project... I'm on a bit of a learning curve here, as you can see.
Not sure how I'd audition any of these... Parts Express is actually in Ohio, but hours away and there isn't typically time for such field trips. I was sort of hoping that there would happen to be a local DIYer that had already gone down this path and had boxes and drivers laying around to try out and listen to.
Scott - I'm trying to keep that in mind as well, yes... That's a real concern if I just run one of the 12 FR as a true FR and crank up the vol/bass. Less of a concern if I use a helper woofer, which it sounds like I probably do, despite all the compliments on some of the TL/Horn designs. I'm thinking of a quote from the 12lta BIB, something like "Subwoofers need not apply" from one fellow who built them... I'm somewhat doubtful of that assessment, though he (Eekatus or something like that) seemed to have room after room filled with large speakers of all sorts...
GM, thank you for further explanation and input. Learning in bits and pieces...
I'd be curious to know more about this - is the power similar to my 80w/ch? How did it sound cranked up, was there audible distortion or oddness to it? Is "loud" rock concert loud, or how loud is it? What are the particulars of the enclosure it's in? Thanks, more data points!
I certainly don't doubt GM's expertise in the subject, but my own experience (again, car audio so not exactly the same scenario) seemed to have that "punch" lower. Back in the day, I had a set of smaller (5.25" maybe?) multiway drivers (and others in the back I can't recall) that did the mids and highs, and the lows were all handled by subwoofers, dual 12"s in a sealed box most of the time, but occasionally quite a few more various subs all jammed in back there.. haha.. At any rate, the EQ on the amp was a simple affair, but the low band was set to 40hz, and it was set to max with the mids and highs set to zero. The subwoofer amps had adjustable low pass filters, and they were set fairly low, though in fairness I can't recall the numbers (or if there even were numbers on the dial).. just "dialed" it in till it sounded good and not muddy. Probably under 150 hz, maybe lower? Anyway, that sucker was "punchy" indeed, and could boom boom a little bit as required, but more thump thump. Very technical.
So maybe a crossover around 150 would net a similar punch here, though at 80 watts a channel I'm not pushing the power that I was with the car system.
Here's some more info and response plots on the Fane 250tc (and apparently it's a double whizzer cone, interesting..)
https://forum.speakerplans.com/fane-12250tc-full-rangers_topic89634_page5.html
You're welcome!
Depends on the band, venue, how far back you are, etc., but I've pegged a calibrated SLM, so over 126 dB many times at college football stadium, racetrack concerts from as much as 70 yds away and again at the Fabulous Fox Theater in Atlanta and was told that the piano smashing there at the end of a Deep Purple concert peaked at 140 dB and I believe it as it was still ear shattering in the vestibule behind closed doors! I imagine a goodly number of those folks inside wear hearing aids now.
Consider that it takes one channel of this 20 kW system just to replicate a single drum kit to see why concerts require so many speakers: 20,000 Watt Home Hi-Fi System
Well, in a car's high acoustic 'room' gain, the 'punch' fundamentals are heavily boosted, so definitely very prominent relative to its harmonics compared to a HIFI/HT system, but to replicate that in a typical room is going to be very costly in equipment and room construction integrity.
I mean my stereo pair of dual HE 15" in ~20 ft^3 cabs can hit the 126+ dB peaks, but can't begin to pressurize the ~16x24x8 ft room like a car can, though the horns and the 15"s upper mids can flatten the ear drums and thump the chest pretty good!
. GM
Dave - That, and theres a chance I'm remembering it wrong, it was nearly 20 years ago.
Though I did note driving home today that whatever aftermarket speakers are in my current car sound okay, but definitely lack "punch". Presumably they go down to the 150hz range, being again about 5" dia. Its entirely possible that this is meaningless, but its all the physical evidence i have to go on at the moment
Gm - thats a good point about the room gain.. so quite different circumstances. I'm not trying to duplicate my old car stereo days in my living room either, but i do like to feel the LF stuff. Possibly my definition of punchy is different than the accepted one?
140 db is pretty damn loud.. I'm not trying to hit that level of concert. Not painful loud, anyway.
What exactly is your setup good sir?
Also, that 20k watt setup is... a lot... Awesome!
Though I did note driving home today that whatever aftermarket speakers are in my current car sound okay, but definitely lack "punch". Presumably they go down to the 150hz range, being again about 5" dia. Its entirely possible that this is meaningless, but its all the physical evidence i have to go on at the moment
Gm - thats a good point about the room gain.. so quite different circumstances. I'm not trying to duplicate my old car stereo days in my living room either, but i do like to feel the LF stuff. Possibly my definition of punchy is different than the accepted one?
140 db is pretty damn loud.. I'm not trying to hit that level of concert. Not painful loud, anyway.
What exactly is your setup good sir?
Also, that 20k watt setup is... a lot... Awesome!
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Looks like just a very large one: https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/sovereign-12-250tc#tab-5
GM
The Fane has a much heavier moving mass [Mms] than the two Eminence.......
The Fane is a drop-in for the 12LTA MLTL I mentioned.........
This will depend on the user........
GM
those dual 15 JBL's have that ability - a single 15 doesn't quite cut it - unless in a Karlson - then it won't go quite as low. It takes good midrange and treble power to punch.. My little K12 isn't too bad as long as loaded with something low in mass and with a strong motor (not "too strong" as 12pe32 is a bit overdamped) - if didn't muck around with so much stuff, 2 - of those dual 15 JBL tent sale bargains per side would have made a great basis for a system. I still have my 2 cabinets, but pulled one 15 out for a small Karlson.
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Hi sbcrx,
Some time ago I had the same questions for my 12" build. I recognize much of the suggestion made here. I ended up building a pair of 114 liter vented boxes for my beloved Philips AD12202.
But then one of them died... So I started searching for a replacement and thanks to input by people like Godzilla I bought the Eminence 12lta. I altered the pipe length of my cabinets, added a Isophase tweeter.
And I am very happy for now...but I think the 12lta can do better. So in search for some wisdom I came across your thread. So I don't know this comment helps.
R.
Some time ago I had the same questions for my 12" build. I recognize much of the suggestion made here. I ended up building a pair of 114 liter vented boxes for my beloved Philips AD12202.
But then one of them died... So I started searching for a replacement and thanks to input by people like Godzilla I bought the Eminence 12lta. I altered the pipe length of my cabinets, added a Isophase tweeter.
And I am very happy for now...but I think the 12lta can do better. So in search for some wisdom I came across your thread. So I don't know this comment helps.
R.
Okay, I had to hook up the equalizer and play around a bit... Searching for the definitive "punch" area. Its a 10 band, so no way to isolate it too much, but still fine enough to get a rough idea. Long story short, it seems to be anywhere from the 30hz band to somewhat of the 240hz band. (Bands are 30, 60, 120, 240, 500, 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k). Seems centered around the 60-120hz area, but the 30hz adds something, and the 240hz band adds a little too.
Ended up w/ 30hz band toned down so i could crank it up a good bit without the excursion getting out of control. And i did hear some distortion with the lower bands pushed up like that. Highs are up to compensate for there being pretty minimal sparkle.. i don't like a lot of highs, seem to be sensitive to them.
Ended up w/ 30hz band toned down so i could crank it up a good bit without the excursion getting out of control. And i did hear some distortion with the lower bands pushed up like that. Highs are up to compensate for there being pretty minimal sparkle.. i don't like a lot of highs, seem to be sensitive to them.
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