Did you get around to trying 11ms in the Frugel XL and if so what's the verdict on the combo?
Have you any plans to do a stacked double Frugel XL/11ms, i.e., 2 11ms drivers per single stereo speaker?
I've got 800 hrs now on my Alpair 10.3 in frxl cabs, liking them just fine, a super value! They don't handle all music equally well, I didn't expect that. I'm asking today if stepping up to the largest Alpair (the 12) and the larger "pensil" cabs to go with it is, in anyone's experience, worth the go? Does it get proportionally better (2x) smoother or is the experience even more room dependant? I've looked at the published frequency response curves but real experience is more telling and I've only got this single datum: frxl 
jdg123,
In my experience wide-band single driver systems do not handle all music genres well. More complex, dynamic, and noisier content usually does not sound as good. The other aspect is that (at least to my ears), these speakers shine more with SE tube amps and those amps have their limitations too...
The Alpair 10.3 is quite a versatile wide-band driver, and plays well in a FH-XL cabinet. The Alapir 12P in a Super Pensil will probably not give you an upgrade vs an Alpair 10.x in a FH-XL - though it is possible that bigger cabinets might fare better. The Alpair 12P in a BIB (Bigger Is Better) cabinet paired with a 300B amplifier sounded quite impressive to me for a single driver system, but same combo with a solid state amp did not sound as good.
In my experience wide-band single driver systems do not handle all music genres well. More complex, dynamic, and noisier content usually does not sound as good. The other aspect is that (at least to my ears), these speakers shine more with SE tube amps and those amps have their limitations too...
The Alpair 10.3 is quite a versatile wide-band driver, and plays well in a FH-XL cabinet. The Alapir 12P in a Super Pensil will probably not give you an upgrade vs an Alpair 10.x in a FH-XL - though it is possible that bigger cabinets might fare better. The Alpair 12P in a BIB (Bigger Is Better) cabinet paired with a 300B amplifier sounded quite impressive to me for a single driver system, but same combo with a solid state amp did not sound as good.
Will do, thx!
BTW, I noticed your location, NE PA, and now I am curious how far away you are from Philadelphia? If possible, I wouldn't mind checking out your system with those FRXL's...
Thanks zman01, that was just the voice of reason I was looking for.
I too am a fan of the SET. I am getting pretty good at building SETs. I am new to single driver builds. I just wondered if I should give a different single driver a go. I'm stayin' put with the 10.3/FHXL combo - with an SET ;-) It is thrilling for singer/songwriter recordings, perfect I'd say. I've got a different system for more complex stuff. I can choose by mood.
Cheers!
I too am a fan of the SET. I am getting pretty good at building SETs. I am new to single driver builds. I just wondered if I should give a different single driver a go. I'm stayin' put with the 10.3/FHXL combo - with an SET ;-) It is thrilling for singer/songwriter recordings, perfect I'd say. I've got a different system for more complex stuff. I can choose by mood.
Cheers!
Zia’s comments are based in his own experience, and certainly shared by many members of these fora, but I think it bears repeating that not all single driver /FR systems are created equal or share the same types/ degrees of limitations. Neither do all SE(T) amplifiers - of which I’ve built /owned probably a dozen - both valve or SS.
Of the many systems I’ve built over the past couple of decades, there’s no question that the least compromised were multi-ways of some sort - mostly 2ways with either conventional passive filter networks with XO points in the “standard” range between 1200 and 3200 that many purists dogmatically oppose, or biamped WAWs, with FR drivers crossed over at least two octaves below the lowest of those and supported by any of a number of type/ size of mid-woofers.
I have two systems as well, the simpler of which is two channels of MTM with old model of CSS VWR126X and MA tweeter #3 (ERT 26), powered by Neurochrome Mod286 - more than satisfying for the room/application. The other is 7.1 rig, where I’ve found MA drivers to work very well with THX default setting of LFE channel roll-off of 80Hz for the front row three (A10.3) and 100Hz for the front height and rear surrounds, Pluvia7 and A5.3 respectively. I’ve only occasionally breached 90dB SPL at the listening position (10ft), and so far have found little to complain about - other than that the stream of new models will always have one second guessing their earlier choices.
Of the many systems I’ve built over the past couple of decades, there’s no question that the least compromised were multi-ways of some sort - mostly 2ways with either conventional passive filter networks with XO points in the “standard” range between 1200 and 3200 that many purists dogmatically oppose, or biamped WAWs, with FR drivers crossed over at least two octaves below the lowest of those and supported by any of a number of type/ size of mid-woofers.
I have two systems as well, the simpler of which is two channels of MTM with old model of CSS VWR126X and MA tweeter #3 (ERT 26), powered by Neurochrome Mod286 - more than satisfying for the room/application. The other is 7.1 rig, where I’ve found MA drivers to work very well with THX default setting of LFE channel roll-off of 80Hz for the front row three (A10.3) and 100Hz for the front height and rear surrounds, Pluvia7 and A5.3 respectively. I’ve only occasionally breached 90dB SPL at the listening position (10ft), and so far have found little to complain about - other than that the stream of new models will always have one second guessing their earlier choices.
Your right there I have too many full range single drivers sitting in boxes, knowing that the least of them will sound better than any 3,4,5 way, just because of the crossover that’s there . My first endeavor was the 10 audio nirvana in the 2.8 box and the Cain and Cain Abby made from shelving plank 3/4, both sounded great, much better than I ever expected!!!!
Then I found Bottlhead, and planet 10 hifi, and Blumenstien , and free plans for a funny looking speaker called a frugel-horn, and Decware , little SET ‘s with fantastic sound , transcendent sound OTL kits. Man wish I would have been interested in this 40 years ago , but 2 watt per channel amps and single driver speakers that can’t sound good, wrong again !!!! So here we are now, after spending a whole lot of money and never being happy. To being thrilled day in and day out with small system with excellent sound hopefully younger guys will heads these words!!!!!!
Well, many of the options you mentioned weren't available 40yrs ago, so there's that. I missed the early Dynaco tube era, and didn't get into kit building until Hafler - must have built a couple of hundred of DH200 /220 and at least 3 models of their pre-amps for a local dealer. Wasn't until the late 90's that I ventured into tube designs, and thanks to Steve publishing the full schematics for the original Zen it was easy enough to clone close to its performance on the cheap, particularly using recycled iron from old European consoles. I'm pretty sure those first mono-blocks are still slogging along in Bernie Foucher's system.
After a few laps on the valve carousel - Jolida JD302, Paramours, Foreplay, Eli Duttman El Cheapo, Wright 300B monoblocks, custom Eddie Vaughn 6CA7, TubeLab SPP EL84, it all got a bit much, and I changed direction - but I won't use the expression "dark side"
After a few laps on the valve carousel - Jolida JD302, Paramours, Foreplay, Eli Duttman El Cheapo, Wright 300B monoblocks, custom Eddie Vaughn 6CA7, TubeLab SPP EL84, it all got a bit much, and I changed direction - but I won't use the expression "dark side"
I agree that most of these companies were not around , but the voight ( never get this spelled correctly) pipe have been around forever , 45 tubes, 2A3 , 300B , 807 6cl6, tubes have been around forever.... like Dr. lindgren said on YouTube western electric/ bell labs did it all before anyone else!!!! And most of these modern companies just brought back the old circuits , which is ok by me!!!!!!!
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Kevner - I'd be curious to hear your impressions of the Audio Nirvana 10 in the 2.8 box. I was looking at those not too long ago myself.
I haven't had much exposure to anything but bass-reflex designs, so the Tang Band 1772s that I have live in a ~40L ported box. The FHXL was my first effort at something other than the typical bass-reflex design and I've been REALLY impressed by the horn cabinets for the FHXL. So, now I'm more curious to branch out a bit and lately have been contemplating building a nice MLTL for the 1772s. I've been holding back because the resulting cabinet will be 2x larger than what I have now and then I'll need to find a new spot to put them
Ultimately, something in the single driver family will be driven by a 300B amp that I'm gathering parts for. Another few months of slowly gathering parts and I'll be ready to start a prototype build. I don't really "need" another amp or set of speakers, but I enjoy building things of all varieties.
I haven't had much exposure to anything but bass-reflex designs, so the Tang Band 1772s that I have live in a ~40L ported box. The FHXL was my first effort at something other than the typical bass-reflex design and I've been REALLY impressed by the horn cabinets for the FHXL. So, now I'm more curious to branch out a bit and lately have been contemplating building a nice MLTL for the 1772s. I've been holding back because the resulting cabinet will be 2x larger than what I have now and then I'll need to find a new spot to put them
Ultimately, something in the single driver family will be driven by a 300B amp that I'm gathering parts for. Another few months of slowly gathering parts and I'll be ready to start a prototype build. I don't really "need" another amp or set of speakers, but I enjoy building things of all varieties.
Ok this is based on the super audio nirvana 10 with whizzer ,not the classic ,which I have ,not the Alnico which I might have bought if it wasn’t 3x the price, maybe 4x by now! In the 2.8 box and should maybe have been in the 5.6 box don’t know if the math was correct for these drivers ??? They had shout, they had good midrange and bass! Why? No cross over . Any speaker that has a crossover in my hearing, is not as good , call it a point source, call it anything you want , I just think single drivers are better, period! Like I said the least of the single drivers are better than any 3,4,5 way , my opinion and I’m sticking to it. Mark audios are terrific drivers great tone no shout , and now no spider, ! And the price is very easy on the wallet!!! Would like to hear Feastrex, but too much for my wallet. I have Fostex 126 in my FH3 just because they are more efficient 93db , and sound terrific with my BH stereomour45!!!!!!!
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