KBK said:
Completely irrelevant information in regards(defense?) to my comments on the "Joe Cell".
The "Joe Cell" does not claim to be an energy comsuming hydrogen/oxygen generating device like the welding system you posted. It is an "Orgone Accumulator", that can create energy over unity.🙄
If the below quote seems logical to you in any way shape or form; I suggest you go get your brain checked ASAP..........
Shoog said:
This argument, always offered without any proof, has been used by free energy wackos from the beginning of free energy wackiness. If oil companies truly felt threatened by free-energy technology, with all their money and resources, don't you think they would be the ones developing the free-energy technology? Oh yeah, this stuff is so simple they won't be able to make any money from it, so that is why they try to suppress it. Gimme a break!
How could developing free-energy or "cheap energy technology" not serve anyone's purpose at the moment?
By the way, hydrogen is not a fuel. It is more like a battery- a storage medium. Fuel comes out of the ground (or from other sources) in more or less usable form. Hydrogen is chemically bound to other atoms. You must put energy in to separate the hydrogen from the other atoms. The amount of energy you must put in is greater then the amount of energy you get back when you burn the hydrogen in the presence of oxygen.
Right now I believe electrolysis is the most practical means of separating the hydrogen from the oxygen in water. There are other means that are being researched. Photosynthetic plants split hydrogen and oxygen during the light reactions (see http://www.johnkyrk.com/photosynthesis.html for an easy to swallow explanation of the light reactions). I think this is where we will eventually get the hydrogen to power a cleaner future. It uses solar energy to do the work of splitting the hydrogen and oxygen.
You free-energy folks would do yourselves and the rest of us a service by taking a college physics class. Pay particular attention during the part about entropy.
I_F
PS- your arguments might be taken more seriously if you either learn to spell or learn how to turn on the auto spell correction on your computer.
Actually, guys, I gots a challenge for you. One that requires brains, investigative capacities, logical faculties, and a clear head.
Work it from the other direction.
Firstly, believe that these guys aren't lying or kidding themselves.
Then, go after that kind of technology yourself. The deeper you look, the more you find anomalous considerations.
Once found, try and develop it.
Once developed, try and market it.
Then you will know.
Look at it from the other side of the table.
Someone ranting that such is not possible, or that clandestine (or otherwise) prosecution of people (by various groups and persons)in such fields is impossible, is speaking from a position of total ignorance.
Billions of dollars are spent on screwing the public, corporations screwing other corporations in industrial espionage and the like, and billions are spent on killng people, period. don't kid youself. Look at it clearly, without emotion. Ie, really put in the effort.
Go and get yourself a history book or two. Try to understand the mass or weight of the world and it's 'ways' that are clearly amassed against these sorts of technologies. Or for example, military (and or espionage) amassed against another group or another country. Technological procesuction has been going on in this world since one man whispered a secret to someone - against another. Almost as long as we have been around on this planet.
Bluntly speaking, in clear and concise terms, humbly and without rancor or anger...you have no freaking clue.
I go out of my way to try a given thing from the other person's perspective, otherwise, I shame myself with my own ignorance.
So, instead of whining, try and understand why so many people, so many thousands of people, to their dying moments, insist that many of these things are possible.
Note that a very LARGE number of these folks..that they do not want any of your money. Or that they even remotely seem like that they never will. That alone rings huge alarm bells, that something is not quite right, in the assessment that it is all 'bogus'.
What is obvious, is that, without a full complete and unbiased invesgation on the personal level (building, testing, modifying, investigating), any 'opinion' espoused about these matters is, entirely invalid. It's hard to argue the simple and ovious logic of that.
And to hammer someone about their spelling is ludicrous beyond belief. That is clearly an emotionally based attack, and such a position deserves, and has - no merit.
The world does not bring new thngs to you in easy to understand packages. That is the way it has always been, since time was time, as they say. All new things are at first - difficult to understand.
As they say: lead, follow, - or get the hell out of the way.
Work it from the other direction.
Firstly, believe that these guys aren't lying or kidding themselves.
Then, go after that kind of technology yourself. The deeper you look, the more you find anomalous considerations.
Once found, try and develop it.
Once developed, try and market it.
Then you will know.
Look at it from the other side of the table.
Someone ranting that such is not possible, or that clandestine (or otherwise) prosecution of people (by various groups and persons)in such fields is impossible, is speaking from a position of total ignorance.
Billions of dollars are spent on screwing the public, corporations screwing other corporations in industrial espionage and the like, and billions are spent on killng people, period. don't kid youself. Look at it clearly, without emotion. Ie, really put in the effort.
Go and get yourself a history book or two. Try to understand the mass or weight of the world and it's 'ways' that are clearly amassed against these sorts of technologies. Or for example, military (and or espionage) amassed against another group or another country. Technological procesuction has been going on in this world since one man whispered a secret to someone - against another. Almost as long as we have been around on this planet.
Bluntly speaking, in clear and concise terms, humbly and without rancor or anger...you have no freaking clue.
I go out of my way to try a given thing from the other person's perspective, otherwise, I shame myself with my own ignorance.
So, instead of whining, try and understand why so many people, so many thousands of people, to their dying moments, insist that many of these things are possible.
Note that a very LARGE number of these folks..that they do not want any of your money. Or that they even remotely seem like that they never will. That alone rings huge alarm bells, that something is not quite right, in the assessment that it is all 'bogus'.
What is obvious, is that, without a full complete and unbiased invesgation on the personal level (building, testing, modifying, investigating), any 'opinion' espoused about these matters is, entirely invalid. It's hard to argue the simple and ovious logic of that.
And to hammer someone about their spelling is ludicrous beyond belief. That is clearly an emotionally based attack, and such a position deserves, and has - no merit.
The world does not bring new thngs to you in easy to understand packages. That is the way it has always been, since time was time, as they say. All new things are at first - difficult to understand.
As they say: lead, follow, - or get the hell out of the way.
Sure, right after I decide to believe that nice fellow who emails me claiming to be the son of the Nigerian finance minister and, having heard of my excellent reputation, would like my assistance in moving $10MM out of that country... I mean, after all, it COULD be real this time, and until I expend a lot of time and resource checking it out thoroughly, my opinions in that matter are totally invalid.
I'm still stinging from my part in the Pons/Fleischmann fiasco, so pardon me for being ultra-skeptical.
I get burned from time to time myself Sy. I get up and take another look.
For example, in the cold fusion video, note the reports of excess metals production.
Note the bright light coming from the 'cold fusion' reaction.
Note the lack of thermal aspects.
Note that some experimenters even talk of the reaction dropping in temperature.
Note the lack of UV in the 'reaction', in terms of light output.
Note that in the use of brown's gas while attempting to boil water away, there is a production of excess metals.
Note that browns gas is an electrical flame, partially monatomic in nature.
Note that browns gas, as a point of reaction, sublimates anything.
Note that browns gas will not react with or 'sublimate' anything that has an electrical nature to it, or, that the reaction is severely impeded, at that point, ie, once the material is liquified.
Note that brown's gas reactions produce no UV light.
Note that, with brown's gas, the more resistive and thermally resistant the material, the faster the sublimation. Ie, the amount of energy required to sublimate differing materials..does NOT add up. Ie, tungsten can be sublimated in seconds. Same time period for an identical 'mass' of steel. Now, try that with a regular torch, and sit back and calculate the energy levels required in the 'normal' sense. Note that the numbers..for Brown's gas..do NOT add up, in the same way. To say that such a thing bears investigation, is a serious understatement.
Look again.
Note that Hudson mentioned that momatomics will not show up under any form mass spectral scanning. They literally show up as 'nothing' (once purified as much as possible by chemical {repeated acid reduction} purification) . Some say that his finding that they show up as the 'platinum metal group' at the 200 to 300 second point in a 'burn' in a neutral gas environment (mass spectral scan methods)..these folks fail to remember that the original sample being ...showed up as NOTHING..under any other sort of mass detection system. They claimed it was electron 'blooming', thus marching it's way through the tell-tale signs of being the platinum metal group, one atomic mass after another, failing to remeber that this original sample was undetectable via any other method, as being anything at all!!! Yet, they insist today, that a 15 second burn is enough to detect any substance known to mankind, to detect anything in the periodic table. yet, Hudson's purified samples were 100% undetectable via those methods.
This, within the context of using multi-million dollar cutting edge scanning hardware. The samples cannot be sublimated, or broken down by anything known to man. They can only be detected via the 300 second 'neutral gas environment' burn. Which is why they remained unrecognised for so long.
I know that this is a slightly different subject, but to say that it bears investigation, is the nearly the understatement of the century.
Look again.
For example, in the cold fusion video, note the reports of excess metals production.
Note the bright light coming from the 'cold fusion' reaction.
Note the lack of thermal aspects.
Note that some experimenters even talk of the reaction dropping in temperature.
Note the lack of UV in the 'reaction', in terms of light output.
Note that in the use of brown's gas while attempting to boil water away, there is a production of excess metals.
Note that browns gas is an electrical flame, partially monatomic in nature.
Note that browns gas, as a point of reaction, sublimates anything.
Note that browns gas will not react with or 'sublimate' anything that has an electrical nature to it, or, that the reaction is severely impeded, at that point, ie, once the material is liquified.
Note that brown's gas reactions produce no UV light.
Note that, with brown's gas, the more resistive and thermally resistant the material, the faster the sublimation. Ie, the amount of energy required to sublimate differing materials..does NOT add up. Ie, tungsten can be sublimated in seconds. Same time period for an identical 'mass' of steel. Now, try that with a regular torch, and sit back and calculate the energy levels required in the 'normal' sense. Note that the numbers..for Brown's gas..do NOT add up, in the same way. To say that such a thing bears investigation, is a serious understatement.
Look again.
Note that Hudson mentioned that momatomics will not show up under any form mass spectral scanning. They literally show up as 'nothing' (once purified as much as possible by chemical {repeated acid reduction} purification) . Some say that his finding that they show up as the 'platinum metal group' at the 200 to 300 second point in a 'burn' in a neutral gas environment (mass spectral scan methods)..these folks fail to remember that the original sample being ...showed up as NOTHING..under any other sort of mass detection system. They claimed it was electron 'blooming', thus marching it's way through the tell-tale signs of being the platinum metal group, one atomic mass after another, failing to remeber that this original sample was undetectable via any other method, as being anything at all!!! Yet, they insist today, that a 15 second burn is enough to detect any substance known to mankind, to detect anything in the periodic table. yet, Hudson's purified samples were 100% undetectable via those methods.
This, within the context of using multi-million dollar cutting edge scanning hardware. The samples cannot be sublimated, or broken down by anything known to man. They can only be detected via the 300 second 'neutral gas environment' burn. Which is why they remained unrecognised for so long.
I know that this is a slightly different subject, but to say that it bears investigation, is the nearly the understatement of the century.
Look again.
theAnonymous1 said:
Geez, I thought those needles were really pointy. 😉
I have been involved in acupunture in the past. The nice thing is, it doesn't care if you are a believer or not. It also has it's limitations. I'm sorry your experience was not more rewarding. I can assure you it has been very helpful to me and no, it has nothing to do with placebo.
firenewt said:
Placebo Domingo?
Oops, this has nothing to do with free energy. In fact I have had to use some of my own energy to type this. I think I'm losing the battle.
Put yourself back in the 1930s for a sec. You happen to be a mad genius, waaaaaay ahead of your time, who lives in a cluttered walk-down and only leaves the apt to hit the corner bar and drink away the worry that the world might be right - and you really are nuts.
You're having a conversation with some chums one night and you try to explain an idea thats been humming in your brain that some of the scientific papers you've been reading have helped to gestate. You toss a penny on the table and tell your friends that if it were a similarly sized piece of highly refined elemental metal, a real element that exists around us, and you could find a way to release ALL of its "bound" energy, we would all be in great danger right now.
They smile.
"In fact, this bar would cease to exist. I have a feeling the energy released would level this entire block of the city... maybe even the city itself. "
By now they're indulgently cheering your nuttiness and offering you more beer to keep the nuttiness flowing. Har Har.
A decade later, a bomb levels Nagasaki. Of the kilograms of plutonium that were used in Fat Man, owing to the relatively unsophisticacted design, the amound that released its bound energy, the energy that destroyed the city, was less than the weight of a penny .. about a gram.
There is extraordinary bound energy in everything around us. Radioactive isotopes just happen to be the ones we're able to manipulate into such instability that we can release bits of that energy. It is absolutely NOT free energy. It's very real.
99.99999999 percent of the "free energy" claimants our there are frauds. But I'll bet that most of us would have laughed at that genuis back in the 30s. Who knows what discovery is next? But it'll probably spell the real end of us.
SY said:
I don't have enough experience in that area to argue with you on that point, and won't even attempt to. Mea culpa.
But, I would like to query your brain cells at some point on what you DO know about the subject.
For I think that there is good solid critical information there that can serve other purposes, for corellation of recorded data. That data is useful elsewhere, me thinks. Even a negative is a positive, when it comes to the use of data in such areas of investigation.
Its good to be ultra skeptical (as I tend to be), but don't use it to blanket dismiss all claims to the contrary. I don't think any of the schemes for free/cheap energy which are discussed in this thread are runners. Doesn't mean that all are none runners.
Look at the logic from a corporation and governmental perspective. Every time they sell you a litre of petrol they make a sum of money. Replace that with a power unit that once installed needs nothing but an occasional service. Potential profits are tiny. Over the lifetime of a car the petrol you put into your car costs much more than the engine you put it in. If you can run an electric car off solar then all that profit is gone. Economics is driven by the profit motive, not the good of the people or planet. There is plenty of incentive to surpress research into alternatives. Back on cars, there have been engines around which can do nearly 70m to the gallon, and yet the biggest selling cars in America and Europe can barely do 20mpg. that marketing for lifetime profit.
I am currently researching running my diesel car on Waste Vegtable oil, which I will get for free. My government will argue that I should still pay VAT on something I didn't buy. It shows where their priorities lie on alternative CO2 neutral energy. And before anyone tells me this is wacko - go do your research.
Based on the physics of the situation i think the greatest potential for cheap energy is in the field of "zero point energy". If a tiny percentage of the energy that is everywhere can be tapped, then problem solved. There is lots of conventional research in this field.
Shoog
Look at the logic from a corporation and governmental perspective. Every time they sell you a litre of petrol they make a sum of money. Replace that with a power unit that once installed needs nothing but an occasional service. Potential profits are tiny. Over the lifetime of a car the petrol you put into your car costs much more than the engine you put it in. If you can run an electric car off solar then all that profit is gone. Economics is driven by the profit motive, not the good of the people or planet. There is plenty of incentive to surpress research into alternatives. Back on cars, there have been engines around which can do nearly 70m to the gallon, and yet the biggest selling cars in America and Europe can barely do 20mpg. that marketing for lifetime profit.
I am currently researching running my diesel car on Waste Vegtable oil, which I will get for free. My government will argue that I should still pay VAT on something I didn't buy. It shows where their priorities lie on alternative CO2 neutral energy. And before anyone tells me this is wacko - go do your research.
Based on the physics of the situation i think the greatest potential for cheap energy is in the field of "zero point energy". If a tiny percentage of the energy that is everywhere can be tapped, then problem solved. There is lots of conventional research in this field.
Shoog
bluebeard said:
Possibly. but the real choice you will be presented with will be psychological.
You will have to 'go clear' on your own personal form of internal 'animalism'. You will be forced to become a clear headed, 100% non-offensive 'human'. All your internal issues will have to go, period. Psychologically rebuilt, on the most basic level possible. Hoisted by your own internal petard.
That is the choice you will be presented with. For your neighbour too. All of us. No exceptions.
Can't you smell it yet, coming up on the horizon?
As above, so below. Micrcosims, and macrocosims.
On the purely human level, it's known as a rebirth, a rebuilding of the psyche to a new paradigm. Happens all the time on the internal and personal level. It is always messy, and does not take place overnight.
This is a bigger situation, one that is faced by all mankind. As usual, we both embrace it..and fight it. Nothing new under the sun.
theAnonymous1 said:
That is actually, very interesting. It's piquing my curiousity. I will now investigate the joe cell. For in that mess of strange and bizarre data, there are some real gems, as is usual. They've got something, but they don't know what it is. Fringe phenomena. Flailing about in the dark. Nothing new there, but the incidental and ancedotal evidence or data is very, very interesting.
Thanks for the head's up. Correleates, in a strange way, with the Indian group's experiments with superheating and spinning toroids of liquid mercuy to a vapour state, and achieving anti-gravity.
This particular aspect of a purely atom-to-atom slurry of material, in liquid form, achieving a 'motaomic state' of existence and creating a state of 'anti-gravity' or lowered gravitational influence, has been noted in experiments for as long as experimentation has been about. Hundreds of correleations of that exact point exist in other realms of research, if you care to investigate. Hudson nicely ties them together, to one point of explaination, although he did it inadverdently, and is likely still unaware he did so.
There are gems of wisdom in almost anything. They just need to be ferreted out.
Lots of Over Unity Devices
I've been holding back but I can't resist any longer.
Here's one of the most comprehensive collections I've seen:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/museum/unwork.htm
There seems to be a big resurgence in interest in this stuff every time energy has a bump in prices.
Ted.
I've been holding back but I can't resist any longer.
Here's one of the most comprehensive collections I've seen:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/museum/unwork.htm
There seems to be a big resurgence in interest in this stuff every time energy has a bump in prices.
Ted.
I know that Stan didn't understand how to run a proper experiment outside the area of his professional competence (infrared spectroscopy of electrodes), especially calorimetry. He also didn't understand the physics of fusion very well. But he knew exactly how to work the PR machine, and to this day, I feel somewhat guilty for setting him down that path.
I'd look at waste cooking oil conversions right now more like playing stocks than "going green". If the industrialized world had reached this level of consumption by utilizing waste animal/plant by-products
(arguably what has actually been going on anyway) and found itself with all of the concomitant ills thereby created, someone would surely have "discovered' crude oil underground today and shouted eureka! "Now we can finally give the animal/plant/crop energy infrastructure a much needed break!
Using waste cooking oil is attractive right now because smart people are taking advantage of it in the early/cheap cycle of the market.
A decade ago you could have all the used cooking oil you wanted, practically anywhere on earth! Hell, they'd PAY you to take it away.
It's that cold ratio of cost/benefit. Oil prices make what was (fairly and economically) wasted energy suddenly attractive. When crude was cheap enough, it was literallly not worth the effort to convert cooking oil for diesel. You could have used it in your truck back then, but it would have to have been for genuinely "green" reasons of conscience.
Altruism will always remain in the footnotes of economics. ... or will it? I find myself wondering about the amount of effort people put into the bulk of forums like DiyAudio. There's really an amazing amount of energy put into many aspects of the information and infrastructure of the web. Frankly, I'm cynical enough to have never anticipated it. John K (both of them) Jon Marsh, Troels Gravesen, Tony Gee, et al, so many of you. Designers of freeware alternatives to Microsoft, etc. Remains to be seen of course if such enterprise would ever threaten the "market as we know it" but perhaps that point doesn't matter. It's a kind of "free" or "freed" energy that is really really, emotionally, encouraging. Maybe there's hope for us.
Uh,,,, so what was my point? Sorry for the editorial.
(arguably what has actually been going on anyway) and found itself with all of the concomitant ills thereby created, someone would surely have "discovered' crude oil underground today and shouted eureka! "Now we can finally give the animal/plant/crop energy infrastructure a much needed break!
Using waste cooking oil is attractive right now because smart people are taking advantage of it in the early/cheap cycle of the market.
A decade ago you could have all the used cooking oil you wanted, practically anywhere on earth! Hell, they'd PAY you to take it away.
It's that cold ratio of cost/benefit. Oil prices make what was (fairly and economically) wasted energy suddenly attractive. When crude was cheap enough, it was literallly not worth the effort to convert cooking oil for diesel. You could have used it in your truck back then, but it would have to have been for genuinely "green" reasons of conscience.
Altruism will always remain in the footnotes of economics. ... or will it? I find myself wondering about the amount of effort people put into the bulk of forums like DiyAudio. There's really an amazing amount of energy put into many aspects of the information and infrastructure of the web. Frankly, I'm cynical enough to have never anticipated it. John K (both of them) Jon Marsh, Troels Gravesen, Tony Gee, et al, so many of you. Designers of freeware alternatives to Microsoft, etc. Remains to be seen of course if such enterprise would ever threaten the "market as we know it" but perhaps that point doesn't matter. It's a kind of "free" or "freed" energy that is really really, emotionally, encouraging. Maybe there's hope for us.
Uh,,,, so what was my point? Sorry for the editorial.
Peter, that's true. My abilities in magic only extend to simple coin tricks and mentalism stunts. I would have to have someone with professional competence in illusions examine the process.
SY said:
That gives me an idea for a new show....
'Pimp My Ride(Orgone Edition): featuring David Blaine'
The show would feature David Blaine pimpin' out peoples rides with Joe Cell's and starting them up with his mystically infinite supply of Orgone juice.
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