Re: Re: Re: FE167E cabinet?????
Well, I'm a newbie. So, this is sort of like the blind leading the blind. But, I always have an opinion! So here it is.
Yes, the tuning makes a big difference. But I don't think a 50 Hz port will work very well with a 166esr driver in the 167 BR. You won't get any bass. Take a look at where the frequency curve crosses the f3 line -- the frequency is way too high. Here's what I would suggest that you do. Open WinISD and pull up the Fostex 167 driver. Set the volume to 7.8 L and the tuning to 65 Hz. (My best guess of the 167 BR enclosure.) Then, bring up the Fostex 166esr driver and set the volume to a fixed 7.8L. Adjust the port frequency until you get the best match to the 167 frequency curve. A tuning of about 93 Hz worked for me. However, you'll see that there is a dip with the 166esr as compared to the 167. To get rid of that dip, you'll have to also use a smaller volume with the 166esr. This will also reduce the bass a bit.
If you have a high powered amp, I think that the best solution is to build the 167 BR "as is" and fiddle with some series resistance until you like the sound. That way, you could use either the 166esr driver or the 167 in the same enclosure. (In case you wanted to experiment with both drivers.)
If you do build the 167 BR, you might also want to leave the front of the port blank and cut a variety of lengths that would fit. Then, you could tape different lengths in place and compare how they sound as compared to the WinISD graph.
BTW, I don't think that the166esr driver "clashes" with the 167 BR if you use series resistance. It's just that this cabinet produces a small sound. In other words, this cabinet doesn't seem to take full advantage of the 166esr driver. I'd also guess that the Fostex 167E in the same enclosure would also produce a small sound.
Sincerely,
Rich
greenie512 said:
Well, I'm a newbie. So, this is sort of like the blind leading the blind. But, I always have an opinion! So here it is.
Yes, the tuning makes a big difference. But I don't think a 50 Hz port will work very well with a 166esr driver in the 167 BR. You won't get any bass. Take a look at where the frequency curve crosses the f3 line -- the frequency is way too high. Here's what I would suggest that you do. Open WinISD and pull up the Fostex 167 driver. Set the volume to 7.8 L and the tuning to 65 Hz. (My best guess of the 167 BR enclosure.) Then, bring up the Fostex 166esr driver and set the volume to a fixed 7.8L. Adjust the port frequency until you get the best match to the 167 frequency curve. A tuning of about 93 Hz worked for me. However, you'll see that there is a dip with the 166esr as compared to the 167. To get rid of that dip, you'll have to also use a smaller volume with the 166esr. This will also reduce the bass a bit.
If you have a high powered amp, I think that the best solution is to build the 167 BR "as is" and fiddle with some series resistance until you like the sound. That way, you could use either the 166esr driver or the 167 in the same enclosure. (In case you wanted to experiment with both drivers.)
If you do build the 167 BR, you might also want to leave the front of the port blank and cut a variety of lengths that would fit. Then, you could tape different lengths in place and compare how they sound as compared to the WinISD graph.
BTW, I don't think that the166esr driver "clashes" with the 167 BR if you use series resistance. It's just that this cabinet produces a small sound. In other words, this cabinet doesn't seem to take full advantage of the 166esr driver. I'd also guess that the Fostex 167E in the same enclosure would also produce a small sound.
Sincerely,
Rich
tmblack said:
I posted something on page 6, and you can find more data in
the current source amp article on www.firstwatt.com which
shows sealed box and Abbey response.
For an inexpensive full range driver, the response is very benign,
and what you might not like is easily corrected.
Hey guys, one more question on box making for this speaker. Somewhere in this thread (i think) I read that the magnet on this speaker is heavy enought that over time it might bend the basket. So I was thinking I would take a half inch wooden dowl and drill a hole at a 45 degree angle throught the front mounting panel just under the speaker itself and push the dowl in so that the dowl would rest on the bottom of the magent. Than glue it in place and also maybe put glue on the end of the dowl that actually sits on the magnet. Just to give the magnet extra support. Do you thinkg its a good idea or would it cause vibration or sound problems? Its just an idea and I am just looking for some input. Thanks,
John
John
I'd do something a bit more dramatic....
The pic is a detail from a WR125 bipole box... note the cutout for the magnet -- that is meant to fit quite tightly to the magnet (an in this case couple it to the other WR125 -- you'd couple the FE166 to the back of your cab. Note that it is slightly off-centre
dave
The pic is a detail from a WR125 bipole box... note the cutout for the magnet -- that is meant to fit quite tightly to the magnet (an in this case couple it to the other WR125 -- you'd couple the FE166 to the back of your cab. Note that it is slightly off-centre
dave
Attachments
That's a cool approach for more than 1 reason, but I trust
Fostex enough not to worry about it. They seem to have their
maufacturing straight, and I haven't seen any alignment issues,
possible because they use a bigger gap than Lowther, where
more attention seems to be needed. (idle speculation, that - feel
free to jump in)
Fostex enough not to worry about it. They seem to have their
maufacturing straight, and I haven't seen any alignment issues,
possible because they use a bigger gap than Lowther, where
more attention seems to be needed. (idle speculation, that - feel
free to jump in)
kazoo said:
I showed the FE 166ES-R to my Father-in-law who has owned his own machine shop for 30 years. He picked up the driver and chuckled " the only way this magnet is going to bend this basket is if someone drops the whole speaker off a 3 story building" "theres know way a 2.lb magnet is going to bend a 16 gauge metal basket by hanging off it" I'm not a metalurgist but I doubt there would be a problem with a bent basket. Who knows maybe I'll remove my speakers in 20 years and check.JC
fe166es-r
Ive been listening to these for about a month now, I just put them on a couple of 2' x 4' particle board shelves, propped them up on existing speakers and listened. Well, the sound was good right off the bat, and continued to improve, I'm not sure there done breaking in yet. I'd been trying to decide on a bh or twqt, looking at all these threads and where they led me, basically in a state of confusion. I like the dipole sound very much and feel that an enclosure of any kind will kill that effect. A Parts Express flyer made me take a different direction. I ordered two 18 inch Goldwood Pro woofers. I'll mount these near the bottom of the dipoles and crossover at 250 to the fe166es-r, just a simple hipass on the 166. I'll get back when i get the woofs goin.
Ive been listening to these for about a month now, I just put them on a couple of 2' x 4' particle board shelves, propped them up on existing speakers and listened. Well, the sound was good right off the bat, and continued to improve, I'm not sure there done breaking in yet. I'd been trying to decide on a bh or twqt, looking at all these threads and where they led me, basically in a state of confusion. I like the dipole sound very much and feel that an enclosure of any kind will kill that effect. A Parts Express flyer made me take a different direction. I ordered two 18 inch Goldwood Pro woofers. I'll mount these near the bottom of the dipoles and crossover at 250 to the fe166es-r, just a simple hipass on the 166. I'll get back when i get the woofs goin.
My ES-R's are still at play beside me and sounding really nice (Koop- Summer Sun 1 now playing )
I bought 2 sheets of 15mm ply yesterday and built a knockdown cutting table today to put the ply on to cut using a circular saw. Still have to make a new Sawboard and then I will be able to start on the D-168 Swan I plan on building for my ES-R's.
This is how I built my 101 Swans as well, can't remember why though?
I have a new T.S. and no shed / workshop to put it in, Hurricane Ivan took my old one so I started laying out a new workshop today and will be building it out of cement blocks this time.
Now if I could get a week or so off work I could actually get something constructive done
Andrew
I bought 2 sheets of 15mm ply yesterday and built a knockdown cutting table today to put the ply on to cut using a circular saw. Still have to make a new Sawboard and then I will be able to start on the D-168 Swan I plan on building for my ES-R's.
This is how I built my 101 Swans as well, can't remember why though?
I have a new T.S. and no shed / workshop to put it in, Hurricane Ivan took my old one so I started laying out a new workshop today and will be building it out of cement blocks this time.
Now if I could get a week or so off work I could actually get something constructive done
Andrew
Cab construction
Well finally started frabication of boxes, heres a few pics
http://www.greenie512.net/greenie512/html/construction.html
Well finally started frabication of boxes, heres a few pics
http://www.greenie512.net/greenie512/html/construction.html
Re: fe166es-r
I'm curious to hear how your experiment worked out. I hope that you had better luck than I did! Perhaps part of the problem is that I have a very dead room. Anyway, I tried the 166es-r driver in an open baffle with an Eminence alpha 8. The alpha 8 was just what I had on hand. (I was planning on using the alpha 8 with the 166es-r in a BR. I'm no longer interested in trying that! My room is just too dead for the 166es-r in a BR.) I mounted the two drivers on a scrap of 27 by 36 inch MDO and made a little stand out of MDO. I tried the two drivers in parallel without a crossover. I also tried a first order crossover at about 1,000 Hz. (That was the lowest that I could go with the caps I had on hand.) It didn't make a huge difference, but they sounded best with no crossover. But, there was a problem with cone excursion in the 166es-r without a crossover.
In the open baffle, The high end from the 166es-r disappeared. In contrast, the 166es-r in a small BR had too much of a high end without passive EQ. The open baffle also sounded very distant -- definitely not something that could fill my room. The OB had an even smaller sound than the 166es-r in a small BR.
Well, I've done enough fiddling around. It's time to build some horns! I'm going to build the swan D-168. Hopefully the mouth opening in the rear will liven up my room a bit.
Sincerely,
Rich
bilorn said:
I'm curious to hear how your experiment worked out. I hope that you had better luck than I did! Perhaps part of the problem is that I have a very dead room. Anyway, I tried the 166es-r driver in an open baffle with an Eminence alpha 8. The alpha 8 was just what I had on hand. (I was planning on using the alpha 8 with the 166es-r in a BR. I'm no longer interested in trying that! My room is just too dead for the 166es-r in a BR.) I mounted the two drivers on a scrap of 27 by 36 inch MDO and made a little stand out of MDO. I tried the two drivers in parallel without a crossover. I also tried a first order crossover at about 1,000 Hz. (That was the lowest that I could go with the caps I had on hand.) It didn't make a huge difference, but they sounded best with no crossover. But, there was a problem with cone excursion in the 166es-r without a crossover.
In the open baffle, The high end from the 166es-r disappeared. In contrast, the 166es-r in a small BR had too much of a high end without passive EQ. The open baffle also sounded very distant -- definitely not something that could fill my room. The OB had an even smaller sound than the 166es-r in a small BR.
Well, I've done enough fiddling around. It's time to build some horns! I'm going to build the swan D-168. Hopefully the mouth opening in the rear will liven up my room a bit.
Sincerely,
Rich
hi rich
i got the woofers on tuesday and mounted on baffles wed.
still running the esrs full range with goldwoods in parallel lopassed with a 7 mh choke. i have a live 15 x 18 room with a peaked ceilling ( peak runs widthwise ). i have no trouble getting plenty of volume using a 10 watt zen and bride setup. the addition of the woofer balanced things out quite a bit. i only had a hint of bass before. i was worried about the woofer degrading the sound but i dont think that will be a problem, even with the simple lopass the midrange is still quite clear.
planned;
1. i'm going to bi-amp using a marchand xover, zen on top and a dh200 on the woofs.
2. try out the linkwitz transform.
3. deaden panel ( dosnt seem to need it much though ).
4. work on panel shape ( needs to look better)
the swan, oh boy;
i looked that one over, looks as if about an hour of study would determine the sound path, i'm a little slow. quite an undertaking.
are you going to get some photos of your progress, i'm sure all would be interested. good project.
i go thru your area, kinda close on my way to portland, i do this generally twice a year, xmas time and july on bike.
i'll get back when i bi-amp, kinda hard to stop listening, i've done some dire straits, king crimson, natalie merchant, arkingstone, korsakov, and fm. the esrs are impressive.
talk to you later, bill
i got the woofers on tuesday and mounted on baffles wed.
still running the esrs full range with goldwoods in parallel lopassed with a 7 mh choke. i have a live 15 x 18 room with a peaked ceilling ( peak runs widthwise ). i have no trouble getting plenty of volume using a 10 watt zen and bride setup. the addition of the woofer balanced things out quite a bit. i only had a hint of bass before. i was worried about the woofer degrading the sound but i dont think that will be a problem, even with the simple lopass the midrange is still quite clear.
planned;
1. i'm going to bi-amp using a marchand xover, zen on top and a dh200 on the woofs.
2. try out the linkwitz transform.
3. deaden panel ( dosnt seem to need it much though ).
4. work on panel shape ( needs to look better)
the swan, oh boy;
i looked that one over, looks as if about an hour of study would determine the sound path, i'm a little slow. quite an undertaking.
are you going to get some photos of your progress, i'm sure all would be interested. good project.
i go thru your area, kinda close on my way to portland, i do this generally twice a year, xmas time and july on bike.
i'll get back when i bi-amp, kinda hard to stop listening, i've done some dire straits, king crimson, natalie merchant, arkingstone, korsakov, and fm. the esrs are impressive.
talk to you later, bill
Re: 166esr Hedlund type horn
The Hedlund & the Fostex horns are diametrically opposed in terms of concept & execution... if you want to do something like the Hedlund, you are best to start from 1st principles...or based on this quote from one of Martin King's papers
you could tweak the Hedlund...
dave
brad212 said:
The Hedlund & the Fostex horns are diametrically opposed in terms of concept & execution... if you want to do something like the Hedlund, you are best to start from 1st principles...or based on this quote from one of Martin King's papers
you could tweak the Hedlund...
dave
The top and neck are just placed on the body in the above pic and of course the head is not yet complete.
In this pic.
I need to get carpet felt / poly fill to place in the body at the end of the neck to kill the highs as they enter the body. I made a boo boo on piece # 9 I think it was, the second to last piece in the rear of the body, put it in upside down and had to correct that yesterday, took about 30 minutes but all is well.
I made the same mistake when I built my 101a Swans but caught the error before I glued that time and was looking out for it this time and still messed it up.
I use liquid nails adhesive with horns so I know the internals are sealed.
Circular saw and sawboard and practice gets me to within a fraction of a millimetre on 95% of the cuts, the other 5 % are usually about a mil over so I sand those. I used yellow glue for the patch in #9 and then silicone on top of that and anywhere else where I did not see the liquid nails squeezing out to my satisfaction.
I cut all the pieces for one speaker last week Saturday and have been assembling
during this week. I have other things to do like work (and two exams to sit and pass by the 20th) which get in the way of finishing my projects.
The sound path is (from the bottom of the pic with the doubled wood) down the neck (from the pic above) and into the centre front where it is divded into two equal paths at the bottom on each side, right and left, over the top of the second piece and then down the bottom of the third piece and then back up and exits at the top of the rear. When the top piece with the neck goes on then the back of the top piece forms the top of the exit.
The carpet felt / polyfill is used along the bottom of the speaker below the neck entrance along the full width of the speaker.
The smaller rectanglar opening behind the neck entrance is usually filled with sand or stones etc.
Depending on your room / likes / dislikes you can also add more polyfill at the rear exit of the horn. I have not measured how long the horn path is but you would be surprised at how long it gets, I guesstimate this one to be 5+ feet.
Andrew
In this pic.
I need to get carpet felt / poly fill to place in the body at the end of the neck to kill the highs as they enter the body. I made a boo boo on piece # 9 I think it was, the second to last piece in the rear of the body, put it in upside down and had to correct that yesterday, took about 30 minutes but all is well.
I made the same mistake when I built my 101a Swans but caught the error before I glued that time and was looking out for it this time and still messed it up.
I use liquid nails adhesive with horns so I know the internals are sealed.
Circular saw and sawboard and practice gets me to within a fraction of a millimetre on 95% of the cuts, the other 5 % are usually about a mil over so I sand those. I used yellow glue for the patch in #9 and then silicone on top of that and anywhere else where I did not see the liquid nails squeezing out to my satisfaction.
I cut all the pieces for one speaker last week Saturday and have been assembling
during this week. I have other things to do like work (and two exams to sit and pass by the 20th) which get in the way of finishing my projects.
The sound path is (from the bottom of the pic with the doubled wood) down the neck (from the pic above) and into the centre front where it is divded into two equal paths at the bottom on each side, right and left, over the top of the second piece and then down the bottom of the third piece and then back up and exits at the top of the rear. When the top piece with the neck goes on then the back of the top piece forms the top of the exit.
The carpet felt / polyfill is used along the bottom of the speaker below the neck entrance along the full width of the speaker.
The smaller rectanglar opening behind the neck entrance is usually filled with sand or stones etc.
Depending on your room / likes / dislikes you can also add more polyfill at the rear exit of the horn. I have not measured how long the horn path is but you would be surprised at how long it gets, I guesstimate this one to be 5+ feet.
Andrew
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