Cable Geometry has very significant affect upon the Audio signals.
We designed many Cables for audio 1999-2003.
We tested many cables and have charts and cable responses for them
note: all information is my private property and
We offer all our information for free...
FRYA PDF is a four wire balanced design that can answer some questions.
Lady Fidelity PDF has more cable information in it - crossovers - etc.
Enjoy
,
Cj
We designed many Cables for audio 1999-2003.
We tested many cables and have charts and cable responses for them
note: all information is my private property and
We offer all our information for free...
FRYA PDF is a four wire balanced design that can answer some questions.
Lady Fidelity PDF has more cable information in it - crossovers - etc.
Enjoy
,
Cj
Wow Curtis, that's some great stuff, thank you for sharing your research. You're not the first cable expert who has stressed the imortance of geometry, and I've been told by a few people whose opinions I highly respect, that L.C,R is only part of the picture, and not a reliable way to gauge performance. I need to spend a lot of time with your info, most of it is over my head, but I'm going to try. Also find it interesting that you use a square configuration in the Frya, which is how I believe my Requisite Audio ICs are made, and they're really really good. I think Danny uses 4x28ga in those. Very clear cables, plenty of extension in both directions.
"Ugh" is understandable when graphs are shown to "prove" a point but carry no dimensions whatsoever so they actually mean nothing.
A small sample:
A small sample:
Well yeah, that's understandable, and shows me something I may not have known or noticed...."Ugh"makes no reference to anything specific, and is just a sarcastic and unhelpful utterance. I mean, if there's nothing constructive to say, even if it's in disagreement, it's really chicken ****.
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Yep, bunch of useless calculations with zero applicability to the frequencies we call, sound. Looking carefully at the "proof" via a Smith chart...noting the small print, "starting" at 100Khz...and ending at 1.8 Mhz.
Admitting your no expert, nor not possessing an EE, or likely any other advanced degree...you're out of your league. Many of us here have spent real monies, time & effort to get that specific "sheepskin", we don't need to be brow-beaten by those who did not make such an effort.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
Admitting your no expert, nor not possessing an EE, or likely any other advanced degree...you're out of your league. Many of us here have spent real monies, time & effort to get that specific "sheepskin", we don't need to be brow-beaten by those who did not make such an effort.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
Where to start? Ugh is the most succinct summation to the whole steaming mess.
not meant to prove anything - just showing the differences in cable designs
which can help guide us in designing better cables ---
CJ
But not using units makes those so called "graphs" just a set of squiggly lines with no meaning.
What does this graph represent
Golliwands per thoroflics?
Satbemeles per chichicorns?
As clear as saying "bread costs 239 ...."
* HOW MUCH bread?
Grams/pounds/bushels/Tons/slices/loaves/............
* what currency is being used?
Dollars/Rupees/Yen/Renminbi/Bitcoin/seashells/.......
What does this graph represent
Golliwands per thoroflics?
Satbemeles per chichicorns?
As clear as saying "bread costs 239 ...."
* HOW MUCH bread?
Grams/pounds/bushels/Tons/slices/loaves/............
* what currency is being used?
Dollars/Rupees/Yen/Renminbi/Bitcoin/seashells/.......
No degree I think so - - all the degree people still use crossovers - sad- and
We have a training in EEtech, WEBER STATE UNIVERSITY. RADAR school USN, Communications USN,
Meteorology-weather Radar-Lake Horst New Jersey USN, 1970-1977
F-16 RADAR maintenance Software division 38 Years- PMEL lead tech USAF (just retired)
helped design IOMEGA-Ogden new drive meda heads 1984-6,
Effort like using a NETWORK ANALYZER applying RF techniques to audio research,
and TUBE manufacturing metrologist for tube design and testing at EIMAC Salt Lake City;
( Metrology: the scientific study of measurement) .
Too. Sir: how many of the - big guys - have won several or any GOLDEN EAR AWARDS ?
One golden EAR award for a BETTER SOUNDING POWER CORD the PALLADIAN -2002-
Sterophile Magazine front page.
Cable designer for LOCAL 'KABLE' company... new interconnect circuits for a
Salt Lake Speaker Company- Michael Farnsworth - owner at the time -
winner of Golden Ear awards...
We feel - qualified - to do audio research - E.E. 4 years or not.
CJ
Read Lady Fidelity free - quick answer: RF Parameters graphed used for comparisonBut not using units makes those so called "graphs" just a set of squiggly lines with no meaning.
What does this graph represent
Golliwands per thoroflics?
Satbemeles per chichicorns?
As clear as saying "bread costs 239 ...."
* HOW MUCH bread?
Grams/pounds/bushels/Tons/slices/loaves/............
* what currency is being used?
Dollars/Rupees/Yen/Renminbi/Bitcoin/seashells/.......
with other cable designs. LIKE:
The Micro-Twin has:
1.) 2.56 more Capacitance
2.) ~1/6 the Inductance,
3.) ~1/10 the DC resistance,
4.) L/C ratio is ~1/15,
5.) less Xc: 1/2.57
6.) less Xl: 1/6,
7.) a greater Xl/Xc ratio by 2.37 times,
8.) less Total Impedance Z: 1/2.56,
9.) SWR is less by 1/4.2,
10.) Cable Zo is 1/4,
11.) Calculated Frequency Resonance is 1.54 times higher,
12.) L/C ratio compared to the Resonant Frequency is 24 times greater.
13, 14, 15 and 16 same as the 1 kHz ratios.
17.) Cable Q is 4 times greater
18.) Q of Total impedance and Cables Zo is 1.54 greater
19.) Q and ratio of Resonant Frequency is 2.23 greater
20.) Resonant Frequency and Cable Zo is 6 times more
21.) Resonant Frequency and Xc is 4 times more
22.) Qa 377 / [L/C] is less: 1/1.54
23.) Z Wave 377 L/C is less by 1/4
24.) Zo/rdc (SWR) is 2.69 times more
25.) Q-line is 1.24 more.
As compared to KIMBER'S HERO CABLE lower
reading-measurement- calculations in the graph.
There are many ways of measuring and through different ways
we are able to see differences - many tools exist to make measurements
the ability to use these different measurements take experience...
Cj
One of the issues with cables is that some cable threads have already described experimental research results on what works best for different audio cable applications. There are also some AES papers on line level and headphone cables. What is perplexing is why people keep starting over from scratch with foil cables. Also perplexing that other people fail to measure factors that can affect cable performance.
AES:
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=20755
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=20555
If anyone wants to get really advanced maybe consider modeling and or measurements in the following non-audio papers:
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/ADVANCED-MEASUREMENT-OF-AC-RESISTANCE-ON-REDUCED-Schröder-Kaumanns/760e69b023d325b4f3610c2545055d58c4a4a987
https://www.researchgate.net/public...tion_of_water_tree_degradation_in_XLPE_cables
Then there are the posts of @Hans Polak towards the later part of the thread at (regarding lumped compensation of zip cord):
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/zip-cord-for-speaker-test.371099/
AES:
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=20755
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=20555
If anyone wants to get really advanced maybe consider modeling and or measurements in the following non-audio papers:
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/ADVANCED-MEASUREMENT-OF-AC-RESISTANCE-ON-REDUCED-Schröder-Kaumanns/760e69b023d325b4f3610c2545055d58c4a4a987
https://www.researchgate.net/public...tion_of_water_tree_degradation_in_XLPE_cables
Then there are the posts of @Hans Polak towards the later part of the thread at (regarding lumped compensation of zip cord):
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/zip-cord-for-speaker-test.371099/
Attachments
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I tend to agree with Jim here. The graphs are meaningless without units on the axis.
How any measurement reflects what is heard is also in question. Showing different measurements and claiming one specific metric is better for determination of cable "goodness" requires actual backup data, tests..
While I am a proponent of bringing the speaker cable impedance into the realm of 25 ohms or so (RF impedance) to control voice coil impedance variations vs velocity and acceleration, it is based only on my understandings as a "seasoned EE" of what is happening in the full system from the wires to the magnetic flux in the VC gap.
To the OP: I've made cables with a characteristic Z of 4 ohms, driving 10 amp 5 usec risetime signals into a liquid helium dewar to pulse a cryogenic bifilar stainless heater. .External to the dewar, I used 6 cat5e cables in massive parallel, and through the feedthrough I made, a half inch wide copper tape stripline with a kapton tape insulator between foils, with a 50 ohm copper stripline to bring out the heater voltage for measurement.
One thing of note... once you've made a stripline of copper foil with a thin insulating film, be very careful how you bend it. If you go too tight in bend radius, the inner copper foil will buckle. Not good. I used 3M transfer tape (VHB I believe) to bond the copper to the kapton.
I've also made striplines using half inch wide flat copper braid, it will absorb the flex and prevent buckling or de-bonding. It's how I designed my very high frequency microwire EDM pulse delivery system.
For my speakers, I just use #12 zip.. Good enough for me.
John
Thanks
measure forward - backwards use of a cable.
Yes cables have a DIRECTION - by accident. Some manufactures after cables wire is done
being extruded test the cables for PIN-HOLE LEAKS using 10KV - and a corresponding meter.
The cable is spooled off - say left to right feed through the 10KV loop - this direction sounds better
if the cable is turned around - the made up cable sounded worse !
So by using a Network Analyzer HP
measure forward - backwards use of a cable.
Yes cables have a DIRECTION - by accident. Some manufactures after cables wire is done
being extruded test the cables for PIN-HOLE LEAKS using 10KV - and a corresponding meter.
The cable is spooled off - say left to right feed through the 10KV loop - this direction sounds better
if the cable is turned around - the made up cable sounded worse !
So by using a Network Analyzer HP 4395A we saw - measured differences forward to backwards
and those that do NOT HI-POT their cables we could not see any differences F-B.
I have poor high end hearing and tinnitus (USN), but it is interesting to realize some people have great hearing !
Cj
Markw4
FYI we were asked if cable had 'DIRECTIVITY' we did not know so we went to work tomeasure forward - backwards use of a cable.
Yes cables have a DIRECTION - by accident. Some manufactures after cables wire is done
being extruded test the cables for PIN-HOLE LEAKS using 10KV - and a corresponding meter.
The cable is spooled off - say left to right feed through the 10KV loop - this direction sounds better
if the cable is turned around - the made up cable sounded worse !
So by using a Network Analyzer HP
Thanks
Markw4
FYI we were asked if cables have 'DIRECTIVITY' we did not know so we went to work tomeasure forward - backwards use of a cable.
Yes cables have a DIRECTION - by accident. Some manufactures after cables wire is done
being extruded test the cables for PIN-HOLE LEAKS using 10KV - and a corresponding meter.
The cable is spooled off - say left to right feed through the 10KV loop - this direction sounds better
if the cable is turned around - the made up cable sounded worse !
So by using a Network Analyzer HP 4395A we saw - measured differences forward to backwards
and those that do NOT HI-POT their cables we could not see any differences F-B.
I have poor high end hearing and tinnitus (USN), but it is interesting to realize some people have great hearing !
Cj
Yes they are at first glance meaningless... these graphs have no direct statndard relationship to common tests,
but as stated to Jim they represent RF Formulas graphed by using the cables tested: R L C Zo and such.
'RF' Calculations
The characteristic L-C-R and several 'RF' calculations
were used to generate the following comparison charts.
Columns are:
1 C - Farad
2 L - Henry
3 L/C Ratio
4 R - Ohms
5 Xc
6 XL
7 XL/XC 1kHz Ratio
8 Z-Total [Xc, Xl, Rdc]
9 SWR-50 [Zo/ 50 Ohm Reference]
10 Zo-Cable [Zo of C and L]
11 Frequency Resonance [Fr] [of C & L]
12 Fr / L-C ratio @ Xc 20 kHz
13 Xc 20 kHz
14 Xl 20 kHz
15 Zt 20 kHz
16 XL/XC Ratio 20 kHz
17 QZt / Rdc [Q = Zt / Rdc]
18 QZt / Zo [QZt = Zt / Zo (of cable)]
19 Q/Fr [QZt / Fr; resonant frequency of the cable]
20 Fr / Zo [Frequency Resonance / Zo]
21 Fr / Xc-1 kHz [Frequency Resonance / Xc]
22 Qa 377 LC [Air Impedance ~377 * SQR (L*C)]
23 Z Wave 377 L/C [Air Impedance ~377 * SQR (L/C)]
24 Zo / Rdc (swr) [Zo / Rdc]
25 Q - Line [.085 * SQR Fr]
By using these odd graphs we can see major differences in the tested cables.
How to apply anything from these graphs was my challenge.
Thanks,
Cj