What?
edit: I see: "by itself"
pi speakers heat exchanger patent
http://www.pispeakers.com/US7804976.pdf
Pi Parts and Options, Cooling Plug
Pi Speakers - Push/Pull Basshorn Subs
The heat in a PM driver comes just from the voice coil, you will get the same heat from the voice coil in a FC driver, plus the heat the FC generates, so more heat. Simple. The details, like mass, size, shape, thermal conductance will factor in, but A FC driver creating the same flux will always have to disapate more heat. A PM driver running at 5 watt is less heat than a 20 watt FC driver which would have to exchange 25 watts.
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Well lets see some data?? How about the guys doing the conversion staying on the job. Give me a break here. What I see are people buying up Vintageframes/drivers, popping the magnets and modifying the magnet pots. Then putting it all back together with fresh re-cones now better than the original.
It's a great business model. Convert a $50-$150 frame into a $2500 one plus the power supply. It also makes a potentially restorable vintage driver just another piece of scrap metal.
Rob
No doubt.
More interesting a conversion with the same cone-diaphragm. Agree?
Or a brand new driver...
I'm not sure why some people are so heated up over this.
Field coil drivers might be better or worse, but the concept is certainly
way cooler than ferrite magnet drivers.
At least I think so.
I like alnico drivers myself, but might try field coil in the future.
But then they would be home made, we are into diy audio here after all.
Calm down and have a beer, you'll fell better.
Field coil drivers might be better or worse, but the concept is certainly
way cooler than ferrite magnet drivers.
At least I think so.
I like alnico drivers myself, but might try field coil in the future.
But then they would be home made, we are into diy audio here after all.
Calm down and have a beer, you'll fell better.
I'm not sure why some people are so heated up over this.
Field coil drivers might be better or worse, but the concept is certainly
way cooler than ferrite magnet drivers.
At least I think so.
I like alnico drivers myself, but might try field coil in the future.
But then they would be home made, we are into diy audio here after all.
Calm down and have a beer, you'll fell better.
I'll have a beer with Joe in front of WE field coil drivers in 2 weeks in Munich.
When I tested field coil power supply for Feastrex NF5ex, constant voltage, constant current, choke input open loop, capacitor input open loop, they all sounded different for same voltage.
They were set to have same voltage, same flux at the gap (static condition). But they all sounded different. I think static flux measurement at the gap cannot dictate sound 100%.
For magnet circuit, shape, quality of the iron, annealing process, coil design, varnish on coil, all makes difference.
Field coil is not cheap for manufacturing point of view, and field coil power supply was a problem for marketing point of view for early tube days.
Even for DIY, 3 way system needs 6 mono field coil power supply! They are not Green at all.
My friend has vintage Maxonic (Japanese) 3 way field coil system. It looks like VOT, and they are very nice. If you like vintage horns, you need to visit Japan and listen to them.
If I compare field coil to Alnico, I always choose field coil.
Cheers,
Kenji
They were set to have same voltage, same flux at the gap (static condition). But they all sounded different. I think static flux measurement at the gap cannot dictate sound 100%.
For magnet circuit, shape, quality of the iron, annealing process, coil design, varnish on coil, all makes difference.
Field coil is not cheap for manufacturing point of view, and field coil power supply was a problem for marketing point of view for early tube days.
Even for DIY, 3 way system needs 6 mono field coil power supply! They are not Green at all.
My friend has vintage Maxonic (Japanese) 3 way field coil system. It looks like VOT, and they are very nice. If you like vintage horns, you need to visit Japan and listen to them.
If I compare field coil to Alnico, I always choose field coil.
Cheers,
Kenji
What I fgured, you should be trusted, everyone else requires proof. I've worked with old drivers and speakers for decades and, other than cases of obvious abuse manifested as dented and heat deformed drivers, have yet to see anything like what you 'imply' (proof being way to generous.)You obviously don't do any measurements on drivers. Just looking for an argument?
David,
Because you introduced it, let's move the topic into that realm for a moment.
Let me ask you, do you have have someone dear to you that you would do anything for? A spouse, a daughter maybe, a father?
Imagine they're critically ill and you've been to doctor after doctor who's prescribed FDA-approved after FDA-approved treatment from any of the large multi-national pharmaceutical companies.
None of them has worked. (In the real world, this does occasionally happen.)
Of course, this grieves you, because all the clinical, double-blind testing from the manufacturer and the FDA says that it should. This is your spouse/child's life on the line here.
But your loved-one gets worse.
Then your great Aunty Joan suggests a homeopathic remedy that she's read about in Hippy Commune Weekly. Every fiber in your body resists this notion. It's not scientific. It can't be tested. It hasn't had to meet any criteria. There's no system of accountability.
But when you look in the eyes of the one lying in bed utterly debilitated by this sickness, your compassion overwhelms you. You buy the goddamn product from the website and, cursing heaven and earth, administer it per the instructions.
And it works.
What then?
Is the enjoyment of the result - the fact that you have more time on Earth with this precious person - sullied and rendered bitter to you because the very thing that bought health and restoration happened to offend your intellectual sensibilities?
David, we're talking about music delivery devices. Where the enjoyment of the result (listening to music), rather than the science of its delivery, is (for most people) the most important bit. No one needs to prove anything here. And certainly not to you. Who do you think you are? If my baby daughter is cured by some sugar-water in a plastic syringe rather than the FDA-approved and pharmacist-endorsed multi-national product how the hell do you think you have the right to demand of me that I prove it to you? Do you think I'll care? Proving it to some external party is gonna be the last thing on my mind. I'm gonna be too busy enjoying taking her to the beach and building sand castles to take the time to prove it to someone whose intellectual sensibilities got offended along the way.
Y'know, I don't think you're deaf or close minded. Probably just arrogant. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other threads you can bring your prescribed and superior scientific analysis to, so I'm not quite sure why you keep showing up on these ones and quashing other people's enjoyment.
The reason I'm here, is 'cause I really enjoy music when it's played through vinyl, valves, compression drivers, horns, and potentially - who knows? - field-coils. I'm kinda curious to find out if I might. I know they probably all measure horrendously, but I've never felt the need to quantify the enjoyment I derive from music, single-malts, mountain-biking or holding my children in my arms.
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Hey, there's no need for total POS pharmaceuticals...
Facts and comparisons in the field are welcome. I understand were Dave is coming from, the scientific approach and I respect him for that. I love to see technicians with their "multimeter's in their hands" I guess. But also the people that already experienced FC and say it's better. Well I respect that, far more for being a DIY business. I don't see any problem in enjoying that. (Let's assume they are the same sound-wise, some people like blue and some people like... well white). I don't see yet, Chinese Field Coils maybe in the future how knows... maybe they can't make a business out of it. Just to say that love the thread and respect both contenders for what they do believers or not.
"Y'know, I don't think you're deaf or close minded. Probably just arrogant. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other threads you can bring your prescribed and superior scientific analysis to, so I'm not quite sure why you keep showing up on these ones and quashing other people's enjoyment"
That wasn't aimed at me but really, why be put out when someone simply asks for some real hard data instead of subjective opinion? The only way to really know if something works as claimed is rigorous testing instead of reading what some one "heard." You all will be glad that I am now done with this thread, seeing as how it will never produce any facts.
That wasn't aimed at me but really, why be put out when someone simply asks for some real hard data instead of subjective opinion? The only way to really know if something works as claimed is rigorous testing instead of reading what some one "heard." You all will be glad that I am now done with this thread, seeing as how it will never produce any facts.
Because Speaker Dave wasn't asking for hard data, he was demanding proof whilst being dismissive of the concept that field-coils have the potential to provide better (subjective) sound quality than conventional coils.
I'm far from offended, just sick and tired of seeing the same guys turn up on the same threads with the same ol' "if you can't prove it you can't hear it" shtick. It's just plain arrogant to be dismissive of those who come and share their experience freely for the benefit of others and demand a bunch of measurements to prove that their experience is valid. Opinion built on facts isn't the same as opinion built on experience.
I think, as I've said, many of simply don't care to "know if something works via rigorous testing" because what "works" is only relative to our enjoyment of the result. If you need "facts" to enjoy yourself, I'm not going to stop you, be my guest - just extend the same courteousy to those of us who prefer to gather data experientially.
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Thank you for the touching fairy tale. Although it could happen the way you describe do you think it happens very often? Do you think the homeopathic natural herbs group is more likely to have a cure than the pharmaceutical scientists? Which way would you gamble 9 times out of 10?
Do you believe in science?
I understand that as an approach to a hobby. I used to collect wrist and pocket watches. To make the hobby affordable I learned to tear down and repair them. It never failed to impress me that a previous generation of watchmakers were able to overcome temperature error and positional error and make a miniature mechanism that was a thing of beauty and kept decent time. Of course, any cheap quartz watch is more accurate. Everybody knows it. It would be stupid to argue otherwise, a couple of days measuring would prove you wrong. This doesn't matter to collectors, we enjoy the workmanship and ingenuity.
If collectors said "I have some Western Electric speakers and they don't compare to good speaker today but they sound pretty good for their age, I'd be right there with them. I like old gear. I'm restoring my dad's Presto turntable right now. I know its going to rumble. Don't tell me its better than anything made today. Thats not the point of the excercise.
Here's the bottom line. I would like to see evolution in sound reproduction. No matter how slow, I would like to think that gear made next decade will bring us closer to live music than the gear from the last decade. This can only happen if we continue to explore the science of acoustics, psychoacoustics, DSP, materials science, recording techniques, etc. We need to find a way to honestly evaluate the performance of every link in the change and discard the weak ones when stronger ones are found. We need to be able to, without bias, differentiate good from bad.
This "everything old and obsolete was really better" attitude holds us back. The notion of "If I proclaim it to be better it is better" holds us back. The scoffing at established scientific technic such as double blind testing, holds us back. The established dogma about cables and capacitors and tubes and vinyl and alnico (and field coils) holds us back.
Its not evolution, but devolution.
We need to find a way forward.
My $.02
What would be the best of both worlds would be opinion built on both facts and experience. Anyone could claim what ever the hell they want. Doesn't make it true. You had a great subjective experience then come and share it. Just don't proclaim it as the next coming. We are all entitled to our opinions and as long as they are stated that way all is good. When you try to make your opinion a fact then you cross the line.
As far as being arrogant or dismissive I have had my measurement system show me time and time again what I thought was right was in fact quite wrong. After a few of those it doesn't take long to realize you are not as infallible as you think. It's really quite humbling.
Rob
There you go, that's how I understand, call it mythic, ancient knowledge, luxury or ingenuity, love 2 see them working. They used to call it "Bugatti" (when we could see it in pictures and museums a few years ago) and now... there's one and with good competition.
Oh gee, this is just a silly argument. Silly.
Fact is that until and unless enough people who have FC drivers to compare to stock PM drivers of the same type there just are NOT going to be any objective tests made. The reason that there have to be enough people is that someone amongst them has to think it is worth their time and effort to do said tests that might provide "proof" or other objective comparison data, rather than just doing a conversion and being so happy with it that they play through their entire collection of recordings...
And as I mentioned before this sort of system opens up the potential for a finely adjusted set of sensitivity vs. Qe parameters that can not be had with a PM speaker... perhaps this alone is something of a real benefit? Worth the price of admission?
This is a thread about conversions, if one does not think them to be a good idea, is that another topic?
Just because particular websites say things that are not quite right or may be questionable, it does not mean that there is no merit whatsoever in the underlying idea(s).
DavidL, the way you talk you had best have one of the best-est, high falootin' wham bam systems going, and a set of ears to match... why? because that sets up your frame of reference, thus a degree of credibility. SpeakerDave's credentials have been clearly laid out in other threads. Even though he may not have experienced some things that others have...
And, for the record, I am a skeptic about almost everything audio, especially tweaks and "the equipment of the month club" crowd... me no follower.
_-_-bear
Fact is that until and unless enough people who have FC drivers to compare to stock PM drivers of the same type there just are NOT going to be any objective tests made. The reason that there have to be enough people is that someone amongst them has to think it is worth their time and effort to do said tests that might provide "proof" or other objective comparison data, rather than just doing a conversion and being so happy with it that they play through their entire collection of recordings...
And as I mentioned before this sort of system opens up the potential for a finely adjusted set of sensitivity vs. Qe parameters that can not be had with a PM speaker... perhaps this alone is something of a real benefit? Worth the price of admission?
This is a thread about conversions, if one does not think them to be a good idea, is that another topic?
Just because particular websites say things that are not quite right or may be questionable, it does not mean that there is no merit whatsoever in the underlying idea(s).
DavidL, the way you talk you had best have one of the best-est, high falootin' wham bam systems going, and a set of ears to match... why? because that sets up your frame of reference, thus a degree of credibility. SpeakerDave's credentials have been clearly laid out in other threads. Even though he may not have experienced some things that others have...
And, for the record, I am a skeptic about almost everything audio, especially tweaks and "the equipment of the month club" crowd... me no follower.
_-_-bear
Thanks for the reply, Dave.
I really don't want to get into the whole pharmaceutical industry and its pros and cons but I'll say this: the fact is the human race survived countless thousands of years way before before Pfizer invented trovafloxacin. Am I glad they produce Chap Stick and Advil? Sure. Neurontin and Zoloft? Well, just because they're FDA-approved doesn't mean I'll be giving them to anyone I care about anytime soon.
Do I believe in science? As championed by who - Stephen Hawking? Carl Sagan? Edward O. Wilson? Leonard Susskind? Karl Popper? Michael Stuart Brown? Albert Einstein? Charles Darwin? Richard Feynman? Stephen Jay Gould? Are we talking M-theory or extra-terrestrial lifeforms or empirical falsification or Ohm's Law?
I guess the best answer I can give to that is yes and no. I'm not a scientist. I've tried to become an enlightened and informed member of my community, but frankly, who of the above do you believe?
There's plenty there with which to create radically polarizing views on anything you want. Kinda like politics, religion and field-coil transducers.
So we do have something in common. Mechanical wristwatches, baby! And I agree with you wholeheartedly because the enjoyment and appreciation of owning and marvelling at them is the whole point.
But here's where we part ways, at least ideologically speaking. I love the fact that you and countless others are pursuing the "exploration of the science of acoustics, psychoacoustics, DSP, materials science, recording techniques, etc..." I do.
But, for me at least, unless that progress produces a greater level of experiential enjoyment, I'm not interested.
Does that make me a devolutionist? Maybe. Anti-science? Possibly. I could really care a less, actually.
Because after all the progress that's gone into acoustics, psychoacoustics, DSP, materials science, recording techniques, I believe we've lost something along the way. And I believe that is a connection to the music centralized in experientialism (rather than analysis).
If you make a product that allows me to enjoy the music I love in a more emotionally-engaged and visceral way - great - we all win! Look, I love what David Joesphson and George Massenburg and Toni Fishman and Dave Derr have been doing for the recording industry. But none of that prevents me from using an original ELA M 251 or LA-2A because I prefer the results I get tracking vocals with them, does it?
The thing is, as I think is testament to the many who inhabit this forum, that for all the progress that's being made, why is it that, in 2012, I - and many others - are listening to vinyl, valves and horns? Because we're anti-science? Because we don't participate in DBX testing? Because we're anti-progress? Good grief man, I'm typing this on a Mac in a state-of-the-art editing suite!
I get - totally - that you're driven to be part of the evolution of sound recording. I doubt there's anything I can type or write that will dissuade you otherwise. But please don't be offended if I listen to your products and conclude they fail to provide me musical enjoyment. Because, these days, that's all I'm in it for.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled program...
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