He apparently thinks so
We are talking about replacing a very old diaphragm that has seen a lot of action over the years with a unused one. Speaker drivers in general will never measure the exact same, just ask those that bother to measure their drivers when building here on the forums.
Well actually a comparison more in line with this would certainly make a more credible arguement than just saying it sounds better.
JBL Technical Notes Volume 1 Number 9
Rob
JBL Technical Notes Volume 1 Number 9
Rob
Providing proper citiations for either - that the rebuilds were all old and abused or links to the latter specific to aluminum diaphram mid and hi freq drivers tested above - would end all this nonsense. Please do.
Sounds like you just want to come up with excuses as to why you can't show measurements so we should just rely upon your say so
No, what I am saying is YOU should go out and listen and rely on your own listening experiences.
"Scientists" like to do experiments right?
I live one block from the trailer park. I'm not the superior personality type.
Come meet me at an audio show sometime and we can listen to some field coils speakers while we are at it.
I did waste my youth studying and I am in school now at age 51 and I did and do a lot of work in history and philosophy of the sciences. Theory of theory. Theory of practice. It all applies.
I suppose I could say I have a good background in understanding knowledge systems. I don't care if somebody went to school for something or not, as long as they put in the study. Otherwise, one can't have a clue that certain non-obvious worlds of understanding exist.
What you are calling blah blah blah is the accumulated wisdom of scholars, the pros, on the topic you are talking about. Nobody in the field would agree with the crude objectivity thug stance.
I'm mainly talking about hard science here but the DBT charade involves human subjects and their perceptions and it is a far more complex problem than advocates of this useful fiction recognize.
The only people who think this sort of clinical testing is non-problematic are those who do it. It is a lonely position.
Objectivity is a cultural construct. That is, objectivity is subjective.
There is no way around this. We are humans and that is how humans work. We do not have the equipment to be truly objective. We can go through a culturally-defined dance called objectivity, but that is not the same thing as achieving this idealistic but unrealistic goal.
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What I propose is along the lines of Fabio's model of chip design. Start with empirical experience then explain what you observe. This is called "induction."
What I would like to see is people with technical know-how to listen and help us all understand and dissect what is heard. Don't demand proof to come to you...do the experiment and contribute to the dialogue.
Yeah, it requires work and an investment of time and probably some money to listen to and evaluate field coils and anything else. No shortcuts to knowledge.
Skepticism is a useful stance but pig-headed objectivist thuggery, especially when used as a thread-ender is not.
Ignore a century of scholarship. Fingers in ears....NANANANANA....
Reason I popped into this thread is that I saw an attempt to determine what aspects of speaker operation could possibly by affected by field coil motor systems. This is an interesting question. The arguments that FCs shouldn't make a difference from this or that perspective, are useful data points. Let's stay on the job.
Most field coils are under 20W. The ones I've used get warm but not hot (on the outside).
Is there any the effect of say 50degF heating on relevant properties of the iron in the magnetic circuit?
Voice coils get warmer in use in PM speakers...what measurable or experiential effect does that more familar phenomenon have?
Is there any the effect of say 50degF heating on relevant properties of the iron in the magnetic circuit?
Voice coils get warmer in use in PM speakers...what measurable or experiential effect does that more familar phenomenon have?
A few snippets from the Field Coil Portal link......
I appreciate the links, at least you showed some attempt at giving us something to ponder rather than the subjective tales others on here give us
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no subjective tales: what's better than to say try yourself?If the experiment is repeatible, it works...
I'm afraid you just want to be polemic. This cannot help us.
I try to post a couple of pictures now.
Fabio
Interesting rant.
I was quite when I was told that green pen made a difference on CD's. I didn't comment when I was told that speaker wires sounded better when elevated off the floors on little insulators. That bi-wiring terminals needed to be added to every speaker. That CD's should be demagnetized. That tip toes under power supplies made a difference. That all tube amps sound warm and musical and all transistor amps are cold and clinical. That multistrand cables clearly sounded better. That solid core cables clearly sounded better. That polystyrene capacitors sound way better than polyester capacitors. That tube rectifiers sound better than solid state rectifiers.....
"I can hear it", eveyone says, but they either refuse to be subjected to blind testing or claim that the stress of a blind test caused them not to hear the obvious differences.
Blind testing is an interesting notion. You can't introduce drugs to the market without double blind, placebo, trials. Too much money, personal health and wishful thinking is involved. Conrast this with the dietary supplements craze. No regulation there, no proof required. Listen to the radio and TV infomercials. They go on and on about the wonderous effects of each supplement ("not evaluated by the FDA") and you know, they sound just like the bunk that I hear from earnest, well meaning audiophiles, and not so well meaning high-end salesmen, every day.
Sorry Joe but you do need to prove that there is a difference. You aren't saying: "I heard a field coil unit the other day and it sounded really nice". You are saying that field coil units make a sound that PM units can't. I say "prove it". Show me some data that a magnetics professional would accept. Are you doing blind tests between two comparably performing units, well matched in all objective performance areas? Are even non-blind comparisons being made between well matched units? How well matched are the units?
If they can't be made to match we have something to look into. If their distortion characteristics are different then that is something that would interest me. (At least the Ferrite vs. Alnico differences were easily seen in the distortion curves.)
Every audiophile wants to proclaim that any difference is huge and I'm deaf if I can't hear it, or closed minded if I don't want to even try. Well, the rules have changed. If you want to claim that there is a difference, then I say: prove it.
David
And... please advise us after a test. Joe invited you.
I made them, many time, and what about you?
Easy to say no and bla bla bla.
If you want to try, please let us know the results.
Otherwise, I prefer FC, stop. No interest in telling you more.
Joe already wrote about what scientific approach is. No need to add something.
Is anyone here converting such drivers-speakers?
Any details?
Here a Goto Unit converted to FC... (courtesy of a friend of mine):
What?
edit: I see: "by itself"
pi speakers heat exchanger patent
http://www.pispeakers.com/US7804976.pdf
Pi Parts and Options, Cooling Plug
Pi Speakers - Push/Pull Basshorn Subs
Attachments
Well lets see some data?? How about the guys doing the conversion staying on the job
. Give me a break here. What I see are people buying up Vintageframes/drivers, popping the magnets and modifying the magnet pots. Then putting it all back together with fresh re-cones now better than the original.It's a great business model. Convert a $50-$150 frame into a $2500 one plus the power supply. It also makes a potentially restorable vintage driver just another piece of scrap metal.
Rob
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