Listening
First, a disclaimer. My system has changed since the F1 and F2 have been in it, and my Alerions are on loan so making a comparison based upon memory is unfair.
Right now I have Lowther PM6A's with Ticonal G magnets and silver voice coils in an open baffle. A Xono and X1 are the pre's, and XVR1 is my electronic crossover. An Eminence Pro Sound 15 inch is acting as the woofer, and cuts in at around 150 hz. The F4 was used only for the Lowther, and only in the unbalanced mode.
Plug it in, turn it on. Proper warm up takes 1/2 hour. There is a noticeable upper midrange glare during the warmup period. Mostly gone after 10 minutes, and after 30 minutes it is time for serious listening.
This amplifier has extremely natural dynamics - something most people don't even think about in music reproduction, but is so important. Instruments come into the limelight during solos, and then fade into the background when they are done. This is as they do during live play. Many high end amplifiers compress the music to increase detail and unnatural imaging - not here. This natural dynamic range honors the emotion of the music.
Highs are extended and well defined. The midrange has that magic that is usually attributed to great tube amps. You hear more of the texture of voices Overlays and multiple singers are easily separated for what they are. Following the individual voices is easy. There is a little sweetness in this amp, enough to make it a joy to listen to without it adding unnatural colorations. I could be wrong on this, the other amps may have just been taking some of the sweetness out of the music. Whatever the case, this sounds right.
Imaging is natural. Front to rear, side to side, but without the etched quality of some amplifiers. Closer to what you hear on the stage. No fake detail, but nothing taken from the performance.
The amp mostly disappears and hides, leaving the music behind. This amp is better than 99% of the speakers out there. What you here may be more the limitation on your speakers than this amp.
Cons: When I listen intently with the lights off, those blue LEDS are too bright. Nelson says an additional resistor in line with the LED reduces this effect.
Having followed this thread for awhile I note a number of people trying to improve the amp before building it. Kinda reminds me of someone saying that if they just had the perfect golf club they would beat Tiger Woods all the time. Having a "perfect" tool (and we know that simulations are not perfect) and having the ability to wield that tool effectively are different things. Nelson is a master, like Tiger, and you would be far better served to buy (or build) this first. Then you will have the proper yardstick to measure success by.
Have some fun with this one. I have some more listening to do.
First, a disclaimer. My system has changed since the F1 and F2 have been in it, and my Alerions are on loan so making a comparison based upon memory is unfair.
Right now I have Lowther PM6A's with Ticonal G magnets and silver voice coils in an open baffle. A Xono and X1 are the pre's, and XVR1 is my electronic crossover. An Eminence Pro Sound 15 inch is acting as the woofer, and cuts in at around 150 hz. The F4 was used only for the Lowther, and only in the unbalanced mode.
Plug it in, turn it on. Proper warm up takes 1/2 hour. There is a noticeable upper midrange glare during the warmup period. Mostly gone after 10 minutes, and after 30 minutes it is time for serious listening.
This amplifier has extremely natural dynamics - something most people don't even think about in music reproduction, but is so important. Instruments come into the limelight during solos, and then fade into the background when they are done. This is as they do during live play. Many high end amplifiers compress the music to increase detail and unnatural imaging - not here. This natural dynamic range honors the emotion of the music.
Highs are extended and well defined. The midrange has that magic that is usually attributed to great tube amps. You hear more of the texture of voices Overlays and multiple singers are easily separated for what they are. Following the individual voices is easy. There is a little sweetness in this amp, enough to make it a joy to listen to without it adding unnatural colorations. I could be wrong on this, the other amps may have just been taking some of the sweetness out of the music. Whatever the case, this sounds right.
Imaging is natural. Front to rear, side to side, but without the etched quality of some amplifiers. Closer to what you hear on the stage. No fake detail, but nothing taken from the performance.
The amp mostly disappears and hides, leaving the music behind. This amp is better than 99% of the speakers out there. What you here may be more the limitation on your speakers than this amp.
Cons: When I listen intently with the lights off, those blue LEDS are too bright. Nelson says an additional resistor in line with the LED reduces this effect.
Having followed this thread for awhile I note a number of people trying to improve the amp before building it. Kinda reminds me of someone saying that if they just had the perfect golf club they would beat Tiger Woods all the time. Having a "perfect" tool (and we know that simulations are not perfect) and having the ability to wield that tool effectively are different things. Nelson is a master, like Tiger, and you would be far better served to buy (or build) this first. Then you will have the proper yardstick to measure success by.
Have some fun with this one. I have some more listening to do.
Re: Listening
Jon; I could write pages up and down about how you should use the F4 and how wonderfull it sounds, but I wont! I will only tell you to; listen to it with a pair of full-rangers😎 You should be able...? Man, it will give you the most coherent sounding music, that you can dream about!!
Steen🙂
Jon Ver Halen said:
Jon; I could write pages up and down about how you should use the F4 and how wonderfull it sounds, but I wont! I will only tell you to; listen to it with a pair of full-rangers😎 You should be able...? Man, it will give you the most coherent sounding music, that you can dream about!!
Steen🙂
Hi Steen:
I am going from 150 hz to 20 kHz with my Lowther. There is not a whole lot more range for me to cover with that one driver. The last 100 hz or so does sound a little tighter in a back loaded horn configuration, but what I have is very, very musical.
And yes, it is coherent, lively, fun, musical. Just a great amp.
I will be off for a week, so if anyone else has comments or questions expect a long wait before I reply.
I am going from 150 hz to 20 kHz with my Lowther. There is not a whole lot more range for me to cover with that one driver. The last 100 hz or so does sound a little tighter in a back loaded horn configuration, but what I have is very, very musical.
And yes, it is coherent, lively, fun, musical. Just a great amp.
I will be off for a week, so if anyone else has comments or questions expect a long wait before I reply.
Re: Listening
OK, OK. So I've increases the resistor from 10K to 33K in
production.
😎
Jon Ver Halen said:
OK, OK. So I've increases the resistor from 10K to 33K in
production.
😎
There's the advantage of the kitchen table approach- instant response.
Probably Nelson didn't even have to have a committee meeting to decide this! Possibly he had to walk to the warehouse for the new resistors, but I doubt it!
Probably Nelson didn't even have to have a committee meeting to decide this! Possibly he had to walk to the warehouse for the new resistors, but I doubt it!
Re: Listening
I have a buddy who wants total, absolute darkness in his listening room. I've suggested increasing resistors, detaching the lead to the LED, switch for the power light, ignoring the lights, you name it.
His solution is ordinary black vinyl electrical tape over the LEDs.
Doesn't stick all that well to anodized aluminum, leaves a gummy residue, and looks like hell. He doesn't care.
To each his own.
Grey
Jon Ver Halen said:
I have a buddy who wants total, absolute darkness in his listening room. I've suggested increasing resistors, detaching the lead to the LED, switch for the power light, ignoring the lights, you name it.
His solution is ordinary black vinyl electrical tape over the LEDs.
Doesn't stick all that well to anodized aluminum, leaves a gummy residue, and looks like hell. He doesn't care.
To each his own.
Grey
The new resistor value for the led is not part of the freshly
posted revised manual to be found as a pdf file in
www.passlabs.com/np
😎
posted revised manual to be found as a pdf file in
www.passlabs.com/np
😎
Thanks NP, for the new schematics...
Actually, i am just in for testing 1 channel (1 of 4), today, and see, the newest schematic of the pcb/powersupply design, and how the thermistors are attached, just how i did it 🙂 on my 'connection' pcb.
I am planning on replacing the resistor value R3, R4, R8 + gate resistors to they're new values... But later on...😉
I see, that the powerconsuption is a little higher now, and that the bias has changed a bit. Maybe someone could explain the advantages of theese changes ???
I would also, like to know if theese connection, i am planning is right :
1. Singleended input : (+ in / GND). And jumpers in XLR in - to GND. Loudspeaker between out and GND.
2. Balanced Mono : XLR in +/-, Loudspeaker between + out / - out.
3. Bridged Mono : Singleended input + connected to booth channels ???
I am planning to make all, theese possibilities, but it's a bit hard for me, to figure out how to do this excatly
Anyone have a schematics of how to do this right ?
Jesper...🙂
Actually, i am just in for testing 1 channel (1 of 4), today, and see, the newest schematic of the pcb/powersupply design, and how the thermistors are attached, just how i did it 🙂 on my 'connection' pcb.
I am planning on replacing the resistor value R3, R4, R8 + gate resistors to they're new values... But later on...😉
I see, that the powerconsuption is a little higher now, and that the bias has changed a bit. Maybe someone could explain the advantages of theese changes ???
I would also, like to know if theese connection, i am planning is right :
1. Singleended input : (+ in / GND). And jumpers in XLR in - to GND. Loudspeaker between out and GND.
2. Balanced Mono : XLR in +/-, Loudspeaker between + out / - out.
3. Bridged Mono : Singleended input + connected to booth channels ???
I am planning to make all, theese possibilities, but it's a bit hard for me, to figure out how to do this excatly
Anyone have a schematics of how to do this right ?Jesper...🙂
Yes that's right. Take a look at the back of the original, and it will all become clear to you.
Magura 🙂
Magura 🙂
Hehe... ok cool Magura, but that's not something i have a picture off. !!! (I feel it's something different you try to tell me through
) Well, it's the connection's to the three different's setup's i am interested in 🙂
here's a picture of my initial setup... (I have changed R9 into 6,8kohm, else the bias wouldent go higher than 100mV)
Jesper.
Attachments
Cool - you're almost finished! 😀
If you skip back a few posts you'll see the original F4 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1260700#post1260700).
I think you should just focus on one configuration if you are confused about how to connect it together - do you intend on using it as a stereo block in the beginning? You can always wire it for the other configurations later.
If you skip back a few posts you'll see the original F4 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1260700#post1260700).
I think you should just focus on one configuration if you are confused about how to connect it together - do you intend on using it as a stereo block in the beginning? You can always wire it for the other configurations later.
Ohh yes... i have seen that... I just would like to make it, as if it was the original thing, where everything is fixed with shorting-plugs etc... 🙂 ...
I will run it as a stereosetup for a start, while finishing the other monoblock could take a while (Well i am not Steenoe GRinnsHH*-!#%) 😀
I have been testing this channel for more than 1hour now, and the heatsinks are nearly thermic stable now i think.
Another pic...
I will run it as a stereosetup for a start, while finishing the other monoblock could take a while (Well i am not Steenoe GRinnsHH*-!#%) 😀
I have been testing this channel for more than 1hour now, and the heatsinks are nearly thermic stable now i think.
Another pic...
Attachments
lykkedk said:
Hehe... ok cool Magura, but that's not something i have a picture off. !!! (I feel it's something different you try to tell me through
Well, it's the connection's to the three different's setup's i am interested in 🙂
here's a picture of my initial setup... (I have changed R9 into 6,8kohm, else the bias wouldent go higher than 100mV)
Jesper.
No, really, take a look at the back of the pic in the link from Christian. You see two sets of binding posts, 1 XLR and 2 RCA's, that fits pretty well with your own description.
Magura 🙂
Listening F4 vs F1
I use the F1 for basses (20hz - 630hz). I'm happy (very) with it only that in some instances in somehow lacks the power for the woofer. I'm considering changing for the F4. Since you have listened both amps, what are the main differences between both F1 & F4 listening wise ?
Regards
Jon Ver Halen said:
I use the F1 for basses (20hz - 630hz). I'm happy (very) with it only that in some instances in somehow lacks the power for the woofer. I'm considering changing for the F4. Since you have listened both amps, what are the main differences between both F1 & F4 listening wise ?
Regards
F4 - LED, simple question
Jon Ver Halen in threat http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1260712#post1260712 mentionned "Cons: When I listen intently with the lights off, those blue LEDS are too bright. Nelson says an additional resistor in line with the LED reduces this effect."
I have the same effect with the F3 and F2, in the service manual i notices there are 10kohms resistor on the LED. Would it reduce the brightness to the level of the F1 if I change the value to 33kohms - what wattage 1/4 or 1/2 ?
Thanks
Jon Ver Halen in threat http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1260712#post1260712 mentionned "Cons: When I listen intently with the lights off, those blue LEDS are too bright. Nelson says an additional resistor in line with the LED reduces this effect."
I have the same effect with the F3 and F2, in the service manual i notices there are 10kohms resistor on the LED. Would it reduce the brightness to the level of the F1 if I change the value to 33kohms - what wattage 1/4 or 1/2 ?
Thanks
small resistors are ok so 1/4 W or bigger is fine. You need to test different resistors until you find a value that you like. There is no harm in using 33 or 50K ohms or even higher values.
You may want to use a 100k pot in place of the resistor and play with it until you get the emittance you like then measure the resistance of the pot and replace it with a resistor or combination of it.
You may want to use a 100k pot in place of the resistor and play with it until you get the emittance you like then measure the resistance of the pot and replace it with a resistor or combination of it.