Hi everybody,
I'll gonna start to build my first Pass amp, an Aleph F3
The will be for the mid range in my speakers in the future, so I'll use Elna Silmics for C1 (perhaps 5 X1000µF)
But to play arround the first time in full range the slmics are to expensive for me so I think about Panasonc FC (5 X 2200µF for 8 ohm speakers)
Has anybody good or bad experiences with Panasonic FC at C1?
Also the 220µF Silmics arn't available in values above 35V so I also think about a Panasonic FC at C5 and C6 or an Elna Cerafine at C6
What do you think?
thanks & regards
I'll gonna start to build my first Pass amp, an Aleph F3
The will be for the mid range in my speakers in the future, so I'll use Elna Silmics for C1 (perhaps 5 X1000µF)
But to play arround the first time in full range the slmics are to expensive for me so I think about Panasonc FC (5 X 2200µF for 8 ohm speakers)
Has anybody good or bad experiences with Panasonic FC at C1?
Also the 220µF Silmics arn't available in values above 35V so I also think about a Panasonic FC at C5 and C6 or an Elna Cerafine at C6
What do you think?
thanks & regards
I think you should go for it. Swapping out caps is easy if you choose to at a later date.
Ps. The F3 isn't an aleph, but no worries.
Ps. The F3 isn't an aleph, but no worries.
But to play arround the first time in full range the slmics are to expensive
tp, What full range driver and "box" plus what source for what sort of music? I assume you're talking about the o/p cap here? It does make quite a difference.
a Panasonic FC at C5 and C6 or an Elna Cerafine at C6
IMO the Pana FC is about the "nicest" or "most musical" of the whole Panasonic range but for similar $s, can do better with Nichicon KZs for C5, 6 & 7 for better result - curiously, these mate up quite well with those 22uF K73-16 russian film caps (as bipass caps), and quite inexpensives.
The cap C3 is possibly the most critical of all, even in comparison to the C1 o/p cap, IMO.
... 2 cents
tp, What full range driver and "box" plus what source for what sort of music? I assume you're talking about the o/p cap here? It does make quite a difference.
a Panasonic FC at C5 and C6 or an Elna Cerafine at C6
IMO the Pana FC is about the "nicest" or "most musical" of the whole Panasonic range but for similar $s, can do better with Nichicon KZs for C5, 6 & 7 for better result - curiously, these mate up quite well with those 22uF K73-16 russian film caps (as bipass caps), and quite inexpensives.
The cap C3 is possibly the most critical of all, even in comparison to the C1 o/p cap, IMO.
... 2 cents
In my instance change of C2,C3 from Nichicons KZ to Elna Silmic have brought improvement in sound quality. So I confirm what James is saying.
thanks for response so far...
Edit:: Midrange will be 2 X 6" in d'Appolito design in a ventilated box and tweeter will be AMT
For now the F3 must drive a passive 3Way 8 ohms speaker with 90 db (Linn Espek), this means the full range to play arround and comparing to other amps (sorry for my bad english)
Preamp is Naim NAC 72 at this moment.
Source device is from turntable with ono clone, streamer and also reel-2-reel.
Prefered music is funk & soul, jazz, blues and some rock/pop.
Nichicons are not available in 220, only 100 or 330µF, and only 25 V at my dealer
thx
I want to build an full active 3way system. The 4 ohms Midrange will be from 100 Hz to 1kHz (1,5kHz). Response will be arround 95 dB. For mid and high I plan to use a F3.
Edit:: Midrange will be 2 X 6" in d'Appolito design in a ventilated box and tweeter will be AMT
For now the F3 must drive a passive 3Way 8 ohms speaker with 90 db (Linn Espek), this means the full range to play arround and comparing to other amps (sorry for my bad english)
Preamp is Naim NAC 72 at this moment.
Source device is from turntable with ono clone, streamer and also reel-2-reel.
Prefered music is funk & soul, jazz, blues and some rock/pop.
Nichicons are not available in 220, only 100 or 330µF, and only 25 V at my dealer
thx
Last edited:
it's me again::
actually I have also a Naim NAP250 power amp to drive the Espeks.
beside the F3 I'll also build a SymAsym to drive the bass in the active invironment.
After building the amps the active crossover will be build to throw away the passive cross over from the espeks.
Step by step.
thanks again & cheers
Thorsten
actually I have also a Naim NAP250 power amp to drive the Espeks.
beside the F3 I'll also build a SymAsym to drive the bass in the active invironment.
After building the amps the active crossover will be build to throw away the passive cross over from the espeks.
Step by step.
thanks again & cheers
Thorsten
Thorsten,
As the F3 is a current gain amp, I think you may have a vbit if trouble driving your Linn's properly unless you get a bit drastic about the Xover - just a vague opinion, no real info.
The F3's o/p into 4R Mids (what drivers?) will have some power limitations and even tho the 95dB efficiency, might be a bit short for some of your preferred music - AMTs not the easiest tweeters, particularly down to 1k5Hz - you have set yourself a real challenge there.
All the best .
As the F3 is a current gain amp, I think you may have a vbit if trouble driving your Linn's properly unless you get a bit drastic about the Xover - just a vague opinion, no real info.
The F3's o/p into 4R Mids (what drivers?) will have some power limitations and even tho the 95dB efficiency, might be a bit short for some of your preferred music - AMTs not the easiest tweeters, particularly down to 1k5Hz - you have set yourself a real challenge there.
All the best .
Hi James,
thanks for your support and life without challenges is boring, isn't it?
The speakers choice isn't finalized yet. At top of my list is currently a Davis GKLV6, a real midrange at 8 ohms or a Fostex 166 fullrange discharged to a mid range, also 8 ohms.
Both in parallel for d'Appolito comes into 4 ohms, as well as the AMT has 4 ohms.
To push up the AMTs response a little bit and to get more focus/less diffused treble (due to my listening environment) the tweeter will become a little tractrix with arround 3" diameter.
To get as close as possible to d'Appolito I have to go down to 1, 1.1 or 1.2 kHz with the AMT, but as the manufactor told me thats OK.
The bass will be a tapped horn in 2Pi calc with a 12" Eminence Kappa Pro 12A, so I have to go down to 100 Hz or a little less, but thats another big story.
To compare apples with apples I also think about a temporarely Jericho horn, but I'm afraid this not my cup of tea in the long run.
I prefer listening music NOT at the highest levels, so I don't bother with power limitations.
PS: The Forum is actually very slow in displaying my messages, so again some words to F3 caps. I'd ordered Elna Silmic II in every place exceptional at C5 and C6, because they are only available up to 35V and I also will use Elnas at C1 when the F3 is fitted to the active environment. I guess arround 3000µF is OK for C1 when the F3 is used above 100 Hz, so I'll solder in 6 X 470µF Silmics. Using the 2200µF Pana FC is only temporarely while playing arround in fullrange.
thanks & cheers
Thorsten
thanks for your support and life without challenges is boring, isn't it?
The speakers choice isn't finalized yet. At top of my list is currently a Davis GKLV6, a real midrange at 8 ohms or a Fostex 166 fullrange discharged to a mid range, also 8 ohms.
Both in parallel for d'Appolito comes into 4 ohms, as well as the AMT has 4 ohms.
To push up the AMTs response a little bit and to get more focus/less diffused treble (due to my listening environment) the tweeter will become a little tractrix with arround 3" diameter.
To get as close as possible to d'Appolito I have to go down to 1, 1.1 or 1.2 kHz with the AMT, but as the manufactor told me thats OK.
The bass will be a tapped horn in 2Pi calc with a 12" Eminence Kappa Pro 12A, so I have to go down to 100 Hz or a little less, but thats another big story.
To compare apples with apples I also think about a temporarely Jericho horn, but I'm afraid this not my cup of tea in the long run.
I prefer listening music NOT at the highest levels, so I don't bother with power limitations.
PS: The Forum is actually very slow in displaying my messages, so again some words to F3 caps. I'd ordered Elna Silmic II in every place exceptional at C5 and C6, because they are only available up to 35V and I also will use Elnas at C1 when the F3 is fitted to the active environment. I guess arround 3000µF is OK for C1 when the F3 is used above 100 Hz, so I'll solder in 6 X 470µF Silmics. Using the 2200µF Pana FC is only temporarely while playing arround in fullrange.
thanks & cheers
Thorsten
There seems to be some confusion - the F3 is a voltage source, but the
damping factor is only 8 (1 ohm output impedance). I would not expect
serious issues.
😎
damping factor is only 8 (1 ohm output impedance). I would not expect
serious issues.
😎
Hi Nelson,
thanks for reply, but you mean the issue with the espeks xover?
What do you think about my Choice of Caps?
Thanks & cheers
Thorsten
thanks for reply, but you mean the issue with the espeks xover?
What do you think about my Choice of Caps?
Thanks & cheers
Thorsten
F3 Build Ideas
Guys, thanks for correctly identifying my amp (pictured in a previous post) as the F5 clone. In the past I’ve owned the Pass Labs X350, X150, Alephs 3 and 5, volksamp and XA30.5. I find this F5 clone more balanced then any of those excellent amplifiers and truer to source. Nelson has really hit it out of the park with the first watt circuits.
Although the F5 clone matches very well with the TAD horns running active with a Marchand Xm6 (to be replaced with a first watt B4 when available) from 650hertz up it sounded a little flat with my Feastrex speakers. I suspect the F3 doubling its 15 watt output into 16 ohms should match better with the Feastrex. The F5 would be halving into 16 ohms so about 12 watts which maybe a bit lightweight for the Feastrex.
In any case all of this has inspired me to towards some F3 monoblocks. I really have my heart set on a single gain stage amp. This is the parts list of have come up with so far and would be grateful for any input/comments on alternatives to the ones listed:
1. Transformers:
2 x Plitron 300va 18v (seems the best ones out there but open to suggestions).
2. Resistors
All mills excepts for the ones in the signal path which will be audio note tantalum resistors for the 47k and 9.1k tantalum
3. Caps
30 x 1000uf elna 35v for power supply (someone had used 50v but would 35v seem sufficient)? I need 30 of these due to 15 per monoblock.
Has anybody tried out monster 1000uf industrial paper in oil caps? I’m sure they are better than the Elnas but could take up some serious real estate.
2 x 220uf Elna 35v
2 x 1uf Audio note copper PIO ( I have these lying around so was going to try them out).
4. Chassis
I’ve searched the DIY threads for a pair of decent looking black chassis. I found some nice ones in Europe but with freight etc they were a little too expensive. Any recommendations on where to source some nice looking chassis would be appreciated. I'd like the amps to match my other stuff.
Thanks in advance
DJ
ps: I have found partconnexion a good source for caps. The Elna 1000v 35v are only $2.50 which seems quite a bit cheaper than alternative suppliers.
Guys, thanks for correctly identifying my amp (pictured in a previous post) as the F5 clone. In the past I’ve owned the Pass Labs X350, X150, Alephs 3 and 5, volksamp and XA30.5. I find this F5 clone more balanced then any of those excellent amplifiers and truer to source. Nelson has really hit it out of the park with the first watt circuits.
Although the F5 clone matches very well with the TAD horns running active with a Marchand Xm6 (to be replaced with a first watt B4 when available) from 650hertz up it sounded a little flat with my Feastrex speakers. I suspect the F3 doubling its 15 watt output into 16 ohms should match better with the Feastrex. The F5 would be halving into 16 ohms so about 12 watts which maybe a bit lightweight for the Feastrex.
In any case all of this has inspired me to towards some F3 monoblocks. I really have my heart set on a single gain stage amp. This is the parts list of have come up with so far and would be grateful for any input/comments on alternatives to the ones listed:
1. Transformers:
2 x Plitron 300va 18v (seems the best ones out there but open to suggestions).
2. Resistors
All mills excepts for the ones in the signal path which will be audio note tantalum resistors for the 47k and 9.1k tantalum
3. Caps
30 x 1000uf elna 35v for power supply (someone had used 50v but would 35v seem sufficient)? I need 30 of these due to 15 per monoblock.
Has anybody tried out monster 1000uf industrial paper in oil caps? I’m sure they are better than the Elnas but could take up some serious real estate.
2 x 220uf Elna 35v
2 x 1uf Audio note copper PIO ( I have these lying around so was going to try them out).
4. Chassis
I’ve searched the DIY threads for a pair of decent looking black chassis. I found some nice ones in Europe but with freight etc they were a little too expensive. Any recommendations on where to source some nice looking chassis would be appreciated. I'd like the amps to match my other stuff.
Thanks in advance
DJ
ps: I have found partconnexion a good source for caps. The Elna 1000v 35v are only $2.50 which seems quite a bit cheaper than alternative suppliers.
Hi DJ,
to avoid mistakes:
The 18 V Transformer is a 2 * 18 V you have to stack to get the 36V needed!
So you get arround 50 V DC dependig on the rectifier and CRC circuit in the PSU.
Caps: the 15*1000µ Elnas are not for the PSU! They are for C1 Output coupling.
In output coupling 35 V are enough, only C5 and C6 you need 63V because there is the full DC. in case of the other caps 35 V are OK (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
In the PSU you need also 63 V or higher and you can use 1 or 2 big caps; I'll use 2 X 10.000µF 80V
cheers
Thorsten
to avoid mistakes:
The 18 V Transformer is a 2 * 18 V you have to stack to get the 36V needed!
So you get arround 50 V DC dependig on the rectifier and CRC circuit in the PSU.
Caps: the 15*1000µ Elnas are not for the PSU! They are for C1 Output coupling.
In output coupling 35 V are enough, only C5 and C6 you need 63V because there is the full DC. in case of the other caps 35 V are OK (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
In the PSU you need also 63 V or higher and you can use 1 or 2 big caps; I'll use 2 X 10.000µF 80V
cheers
Thorsten
Hi Thorston , thanks for clarifying those points. If C1 is coupling then it would great to go with Paper in oil or polyprop. I remember the late Harvey Rosenberg used industrial caps but never did find the brand he used. I don't mind trying this if they are not too big although I think they would be huge. I had some 10uv Jensen PIO which were quite big. The problem with electrolytics in the signal path is they have a certain leanness and lack resolution compared to a good polprop or PIO. I have tried some of the high grade electrolytics including blackgates in the signal path before but still inferior. Instead of using caps at C1 has anybody tried transformer coupling instead? It's over my head technically on how this could be done but would be happy to try it out.
Cheers
DJ
Cheers
DJ
Hi DJ,
certainly foil caps would be better in signal path, but to come to 10.000µF foil caps you will need a big box and a much bigger purse!
I've had some 47µF polytsterenes from Evox Rifa, they are as big as a box of cigarettes and 400 of them will fill your fridge or s.th. like that and will cost over 10,000 USD!
On my boards is beside the 15.000µF C1 C8 as a 220µF and C10 as 1µF as bypass caps to the big elctrolytic, while C10 should be a very high quality KP like Mundorf MCap supreme-
Other builders here are using 15 X 1.000µF Elna Silmic II which are high grade audio caps. A KP bypass is not neccessary, or the high frequencies become to bright. So you have to mix and match to your own preferences
cheers
Thorsten
certainly foil caps would be better in signal path, but to come to 10.000µF foil caps you will need a big box and a much bigger purse!
I've had some 47µF polytsterenes from Evox Rifa, they are as big as a box of cigarettes and 400 of them will fill your fridge or s.th. like that and will cost over 10,000 USD!
On my boards is beside the 15.000µF C1 C8 as a 220µF and C10 as 1µF as bypass caps to the big elctrolytic, while C10 should be a very high quality KP like Mundorf MCap supreme-
Other builders here are using 15 X 1.000µF Elna Silmic II which are high grade audio caps. A KP bypass is not neccessary, or the high frequencies become to bright. So you have to mix and match to your own preferences
cheers
Thorsten
If you read this thread that some found excessive cap bypassing detrimental. I'll repeat my advice about the output caps and then note that Nelson did not put any audiophile jelly rolls in the production version.
Build it. Listen. Play.
Build it. Listen. Play.
@DJ
if you don't have fun to read the whole thread, do yourself a favour and read from this http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/137145-f3-builders-thread-3.html#post1724304
the following 10 or 15 posts - there ar much infos about C1
cheers
if you don't have fun to read the whole thread, do yourself a favour and read from this http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/137145-f3-builders-thread-3.html#post1724304
the following 10 or 15 posts - there ar much infos about C1
cheers
... back again,
is there any matching recommended between the IRFP240?
Matching has to be done with life BIAS/1,7 A? Oh dear...
I've nothing found about in this thread.
As BC550 seems to be good replacement for the ZTX450 I've also ordered 2SC1845 in place of Q4. BCE is not in the same order as the BC but it is a super low noise highly recommended NPN. Has anyone tried it out?
thanks & cheers
Thorsten
is there any matching recommended between the IRFP240?
Matching has to be done with life BIAS/1,7 A? Oh dear...
I've nothing found about in this thread.
As BC550 seems to be good replacement for the ZTX450 I've also ordered 2SC1845 in place of Q4. BCE is not in the same order as the BC but it is a super low noise highly recommended NPN. Has anyone tried it out?
thanks & cheers
Thorsten