Not surprising that USHINDI transducer technology IP has been used by DALI given on about PURIFI scrolling down to second row (how very humble to be the last one listed given Mr. Lyngdorf's CV) of bios we find identified as a co-founder of Purifi Audio:
Peter Lyngdorf,
Owner of Lyngdorf Family Holding, Hi Fi Klubben, DALI and Steinway Lyngdorf. The group has >1000 employees and multiple factories in Denmark and China. Former owner several audio companies including NAD Electronics and Snell Acoustics. Driver of Digital Room Compensation technology from Snell DSP 1000 (1993) through NAD, TacT Audio and now Lyngdorf RoomPerfect.There is a wonderful interview of Peter Lyngdorf on the SoundStage! network YouTube channel, "How Peter Lyngdorf Became Denmark's Most Prolific and Successful Hi-Fi Entrepreneur". Over an hour detailing a life spent helping to invent modern high-end HiFi, well worth your time.
It looks amazing. That distortion is almost non-existent. In the data sheet sample filter, it says that it is an LR4 high pass, but the circuit only shows two capacitors and an inductor in between, which I would think is a 3rd order filter. Does it become a 4th order filter acoustically or is this a typo?
The datasheet (section 2.1) says 4th order is the acoustical total
The tweeter has been released. So is the PTT12.0X a realistic expectation, or just a pipe dream.
And what about the 150mmWG for the SPK16? A very rough ETA or should we pull the trigger on what we have available now?
The last time I asked, the answer was that there were no such product in the pipeline.
So instead I asked for a larger spider, or spider optimisation, in 2022. But the team are very busy, as they are hand assembling all their drivers in Denmark, attending trade shows looking for customers etc...
Purifi are a business, and the job is to make monkey, either for themselves (private) or stockholders (public).
At the end of the day, its about the economics of the thing.
And it really depends on what you're looking for.
a) For a pure subwoofer application, which is defined at 120Hz and below (THX, Dolby Atmos etc), displacement rules.
So you don't need all the very expensive motor tech that is in the complete Purifi woofers which have good beyond 1KHz).
So you can dispense with a lot of the things that makes it up^
eg.
1) Use a basic, off the shelf, aluminum cone for its rigidity and absence of a cone edge surround resonance.
1b) No need for the under cone edge treatment ring.
2) Use a traditional motor design, obviously FEA optimized, but with a standard pole, no neodymium slug.
3) Do not use copper in the motor, unless a thin copper cap/sleeve is cost effective. Just use aluminum ring(s) instead to reduce price for some inductance Le (x) control.
4) Commonly wound voice coil but with a Bl(x) curve out to 14.75mm standard in Klippel
5) Their neutral surround, the star of the show
6) Big spider with odd number of corrugations/pleats to enable Kms(x) to match their geometric voice coil x-max of 14.75mm x-max
(this should further down the price)- sorry for those guys subject to tariffs.
In essence, a Peerless SLS or XXLS type subwoofer, with a neutral surround, for the rest of us!
Even for a bigger 12", it should cost only fraction of the €/$750 of the PTT10.0X.
Hit LIKE as a vote if you want to buy something like this...
So instead I asked for a larger spider, or spider optimisation, in 2022. But the team are very busy, as they are hand assembling all their drivers in Denmark, attending trade shows looking for customers etc...
Purifi are a business, and the job is to make monkey, either for themselves (private) or stockholders (public).
At the end of the day, its about the economics of the thing.
And it really depends on what you're looking for.
a) For a pure subwoofer application, which is defined at 120Hz and below (THX, Dolby Atmos etc), displacement rules.
So you don't need all the very expensive motor tech that is in the complete Purifi woofers which have good beyond 1KHz).
So you can dispense with a lot of the things that makes it up^
eg.
1) Use a basic, off the shelf, aluminum cone for its rigidity and absence of a cone edge surround resonance.
1b) No need for the under cone edge treatment ring.
2) Use a traditional motor design, obviously FEA optimized, but with a standard pole, no neodymium slug.
3) Do not use copper in the motor, unless a thin copper cap/sleeve is cost effective. Just use aluminum ring(s) instead to reduce price for some inductance Le (x) control.
4) Commonly wound voice coil but with a Bl(x) curve out to 14.75mm standard in Klippel
5) Their neutral surround, the star of the show
6) Big spider with odd number of corrugations/pleats to enable Kms(x) to match their geometric voice coil x-max of 14.75mm x-max
^ideas with @5th element
So parts costs can come down by ALOT. And they already have/access to factories in China.
(this should further down the price)- sorry for those guys subject to tariffs.
In essence, a Peerless SLS or XXLS type subwoofer, with a neutral surround, for the rest of us!
Even for a bigger 12", it should cost only fraction of the €/$750 of the PTT10.0X.
Hit LIKE as a vote if you want to buy something like this...
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Now on the other hand, if you want something like this, it's going to cost you an arm and a leg. First off, the TAD devices are rare as hens teeth. And have a legacy/heritage/prestige element. They already cost almost 4 figures in $/€ .
And since they are used as large high sensitivity midwoofers complete with alnico magnets in 2-ways, an equivalent Purifi product will have:
1) Optimised fibre cone for 16-18" midwoofer for good damping characteristics beyond 1KHz.
1b)Under cone edge treatment ring.
2) Lots of motor strength β. Neodymium
3) Optimised voice coil, with shorter 2 layer voice coil with variable winding voice coil symmetrical Bl(x) with around <5mm x-max
4) Lots and properly positioned copper in the motor
5) Thinner smaller neutral surround , the star of the show
6) Optimised spider with odd number of corrugations/pleats to enable Kms(x) to match their geometric voice coil x-max
It's gonna cost you, if you want something like this in 15-18" for a 2-way...
To compete with TAD, they will it competitively like TAD. Otherwise the prestige high-end element is lost. Such is the state of the "high-end"
Hit LIKE if you’re selling a kidney on the black market to pre-order a pair of these 16-18” woofers.
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I expected the tweeter to.be pricey, but not that expensive. I was waiting on its release to replace some 104mm tweeter in a tower but ouch, $1000+ is nuts. Just going to fall back to plan b and grab a dxt.
I don’t think this is what people want to see at all in a PTT12.0X. Instead they want to see a larger version of the PTT10.0X with greater displacement and power handling. The application would be the same, ie the woofer in a TMW 3way. Something that blows the SB34NRXL75-8 (and 12MWN700D) out of the water in that application.
@ThatSoundsGood
That’s the pricing I see, yes.
@NiToNi
For your vote I‘d expect the full blown PTT12.0X to cost ~ $/€900 per piece, maybe more.
Is there a market for such a product?
Because more investment would be needed to retooling the frame for a bigger landing for the spider to get the full 14.75mm x-max:
In order of date of appearance:
Peerless (DK) 10” XLS 830452 5ohm pulp composite cone, aluminium rings for demodulation circa ~ 2001 ?earlier
Dayton Audio (Parts Express house brand) RSS265HF; aluminium cone, aluminium rings, Made in Taiwan ~ 2005:
SEAS L26RO(4)Y
10 inch 4 ohm (4 layer VC) 2 layer voice aluminium cone, copper sleeve - 2011 (A collaboration between the late Sigfried Linkwitz for his Orion 3.3, originally Made in Taiwan under the SEAS Design brand.
Klippel data and application note
10” Tymphany XXLS 835016
Alu cone. Aluminium shorting rings
Made In China
~ 2012
L26ROY manufacturing moved to Moss, Norway, with redesigned basket- ~2018
PTT10.0X ~2024
All are 10” woofers with a frame whode outer diameter is 269mm (except for RSS265-266mm)
But only one has a spider landing of significantly less than 143mm; whilst all others have a frame landing of significantly over 160mm (or well over, in the case of the SEAS)
Could this be the reason for the PTT10.0X not reaching the 14.75mm geometric x-max?
Displacement limiting numbers calculated by the Klippel analyzer using the full-range woofer criteria for Bl was XBl @ 82% (Bl dropping to 82% of its maximum value) 11.9mm for the prescribed 10% distortion level. For the compliance, XC @ 75% Cms minimum was 10.2mm, which means that for the Purifi woofer, the compliance is the more limiting factor for getting to the 10% distortion level.
Reference:
Vance reviews PTT10.0X for AudioXpress
That’s the pricing I see, yes.
@NiToNi
For your vote I‘d expect the full blown PTT12.0X to cost ~ $/€900 per piece, maybe more.
Is there a market for such a product?
Because more investment would be needed to retooling the frame for a bigger landing for the spider to get the full 14.75mm x-max:
In order of date of appearance:
Peerless (DK) 10” XLS 830452 5ohm pulp composite cone, aluminium rings for demodulation circa ~ 2001 ?earlier
Dayton Audio (Parts Express house brand) RSS265HF; aluminium cone, aluminium rings, Made in Taiwan ~ 2005:
SEAS L26RO(4)Y
10 inch 4 ohm (4 layer VC) 2 layer voice aluminium cone, copper sleeve - 2011 (A collaboration between the late Sigfried Linkwitz for his Orion 3.3, originally Made in Taiwan under the SEAS Design brand.
Klippel data and application note
10” Tymphany XXLS 835016
Alu cone. Aluminium shorting rings
Made In China
~ 2012
L26ROY manufacturing moved to Moss, Norway, with redesigned basket- ~2018
PTT10.0X ~2024
All are 10” woofers with a frame whode outer diameter is 269mm (except for RSS265-266mm)
But only one has a spider landing of significantly less than 143mm; whilst all others have a frame landing of significantly over 160mm (or well over, in the case of the SEAS)
Could this be the reason for the PTT10.0X not reaching the 14.75mm geometric x-max?
Displacement limiting numbers calculated by the Klippel analyzer using the full-range woofer criteria for Bl was XBl @ 82% (Bl dropping to 82% of its maximum value) 11.9mm for the prescribed 10% distortion level. For the compliance, XC @ 75% Cms minimum was 10.2mm, which means that for the Purifi woofer, the compliance is the more limiting factor for getting to the 10% distortion level.
Reference:
Vance reviews PTT10.0X for AudioXpress
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Apologies, didn't mean to forget our friends at Scan-Speak, the 26W-4558T00
10" 4 ohm, aluminum cone, fiberglass dust cap, different basket, aluminumin rings for demodulation, bumped back plate, circa 2011
Made in Denmark
Current Tymphany product XXLS-P835016
10 inch 4 ohm, aluminium cone, aluminium rings for demodulation., bumped back plate for even longer excursion than original XLS. Made in China
10" 4 ohm, aluminum cone, fiberglass dust cap, different basket, aluminumin rings for demodulation, bumped back plate, circa 2011
Made in Denmark
Current Tymphany product XXLS-P835016
10 inch 4 ohm, aluminium cone, aluminium rings for demodulation., bumped back plate for even longer excursion than original XLS. Made in China
hi, we deliberately want the suspension to limit the excursion so that the coil stays in the linear range. This keep IMD down. the distortion from the Kms is more isolated to harmonic distortion of the deep bass and not so much IMD. of course, with a dsp limiter you can control excursion better and benefit from a more linear suspension. Note also that it’s the surround that limits excursion. the spider goes further. The 8” and 10” spiders are geometry optimised by us. We dont trust the Klippel LSI graphs and use our own analyser for the data sheet.
cheers
Lars
cheers
Lars
Well when there's an optics problem when the industry standard Klippel DA2 says the PTT10.0X cannot reach 14.75mm x-max.
Have you written to Wolfgang?
I like to use all the (known) tools at my disposal, and am not married to, (whether it be theory or practice)- active or passive, or voltage or current drive, DSP or ASP, IIR or FIR, MDF or plywood, 3D printing or CNC, aluminum or 'plastics', screws or adhesives, adaptive filtering...
And why shouldn't people use a DSP limiter?
It's 2025, not 1985!
Have you written to Wolfgang?
I like to use all the (known) tools at my disposal, and am not married to, (whether it be theory or practice)- active or passive, or voltage or current drive, DSP or ASP, IIR or FIR, MDF or plywood, 3D printing or CNC, aluminum or 'plastics', screws or adhesives, adaptive filtering...
And why shouldn't people use a DSP limiter?
It's 2025, not 1985!
It's a superior solution imo, but it's also significantly more effort. To accurately predict displacement you NEED a nonlinear model, without such model you end up being very conservative or you won't have safety guarantees.
As a driver manufacturer you don't know how the customer is going to implement the driver. If you look at the average high end manufacturer, they still use passive crossovers (don't get me wrong, they can be fine). However if those people are your customers, I completely understand the philosophy of using Kms(x,T) as safety mechanism.
Changing the shape of the suspension system won't increase the Xmech, but only the distortion character. As Lars already mentioned, the Kms(x) distortion stays within low frequency and thus is quite tolerable from an audibility perspective.
If there ARE customers that are willing to go the non-linear model route, then they should also be able to make a nonlinear feedforward controller (i.e. what klippel does with KCS, or Samsung with their flatness based approach).