Future resale price is of no consideration whatsoever when comparing the tremendous value proposition of building a speaker yourself compared to buying a commercial speaker. You have already come out so far ahead that if you gave the speaker away it would still be a tremendous bargain.
So called resale value is not even on the list of considerations. To stop and worry about it puts a big and unnecessary extra factor into the decision process. Forget about it and build what you want to enjoy listening to.
No, you are.
Buy $10k speaker, resell $7k. My pocket is now $3k worse off.
Build speaker I feel is as good for $1k, probably $800 in parts content. Decide to move on to next project and junk the cabs. Even if drivers sell S/H for $400, I'm out $600 and have some xover parts left over, and sometimes you can sell the cabs and xover bits for a modest amount so I might be out $4-500.
Percentages are only relevant for accountants.
Depends on how you look at it aside from driver cost the work and time needed to assemble design and build using $100 vs $1000 drivers is essentially the same. So if you are going to go through the work why do it with minimal cost drivers if your budget allows a "better more expensive" driver set??
If you DIY resale is simply not in the picture at least for me. I look at the driver sets as what has true resale value. I don't expect any money to be made back on cabinets and crossovers I design and build.
Now with drivers I have a couple of vintage drivers sets I could easily make money selling. With modern driver set's I could get back at least 50% possibly more on my investment.
It's done for fun not profit.
Rob
well we have the hypothetical numbers in front of us and still disagree. No wonder why we have 17 pages on this grossly generic discussion about diy vs commercial. Lol.
@Rob: You opened a can of worm there haha. Once you bake in your time and effort, the “value” proposition massively changes. I spent the last 3 months reading about speaker design and have yet to start my 12/6/1 project. If I consider this a job and charge my current salary rate then whatever I came up with will become multiple times higher than “equivalent commercial offering at 5 time the diy cost”.
On the more serious note, this is the most important point where some people are confused: companies make product for profit so every single cost count whereas people diy as a hobby so their time and effort doesn't count as “cost” so you cant really compare DIY driver cost to retail price of speakers since its not really apple to apple.
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I agree in general that DIY has biggest value as hobby where you have fun building things your way. If someone is seeking best “value” and “doesnt care about look as long as it sound good” then well used beat up commercial speakers serve them better.
@Rob: You opened a can of worm there haha. Once you bake in your time and effort, the “value” proposition massively changes. I spent the last 3 months reading about speaker design and have yet to start my 12/6/1 project. If I consider this a job and charge my current salary rate then whatever I came up with will become multiple times higher than “equivalent commercial offering at 5 time the diy cost”.
On the more serious note, this is the most important point where some people are confused: companies make product for profit so every single cost count whereas people diy as a hobby so their time and effort doesn't count as “cost” so you cant really compare DIY driver cost to retail price of speakers since its not really apple to apple.
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I agree in general that DIY has biggest value as hobby where you have fun building things your way. If someone is seeking best “value” and “doesnt care about look as long as it sound good” then well used beat up commercial speakers serve them better.
But nobody here does that. We don't consider this to be a job or anything like a job. This is a hobby, a pastime, a way to enjoy yourself. Assigning a dollar value to your time designing and building speaker has no meaning for DIYers.
So I think you are on the wrong forum. This one is clearly labelled diyAudio. It looks like you just joined this forum and perhaps it was a mistake. You might be happier and fit in better on one of the other forums that don't cater to the DIY crowd.
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I used to work with an incredible engineer, who was a mad keen angler, out on his boat all the time. Anyone who knows anything about boating is aware it's definition is "standing at the end of the dock and throwing your money into the water". Whilst he almost always came back with fish, and gave many of us a fun day on the water, in terms of $ and c it would be much cheaper to have gone to the co-op and bought a fresh fish. Amortising the cost of the fish he caught incl running costs and maintenance meant each fish was many times more than simply buying one.
I know which was more fun.
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You seems to have problem understanding others point beyond your bias. I was actually saying the exact same thing that diy should be a hobby and not a cost decision.
Whether I should be here or not is my own decision and what you think doesnt matter to me.
I have no problem understanding your point and we are not saying the exact same thing. DIY is both a hobby AND a cost decision.
To say that DIY is not a cost decision shows that you still do not understand it. If it were to cost more to build a DIY speaker or even a comparable amount compared to an equivalent commercial product then very few people would do it.
So you have to appreciate both the value proposition and the personal satisfaction in creating something with your own hands in order to understand DIY. From your posts so far, I'm not sure that you do.
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DIY has cost me a fortune (not that I'm complaining). Two measurement microphones, Two DATS and a woofer tester 2, LspCAD, microphone stands, books, a large, heavy box of film capacitors (a pair of every value), three cases of resistors (around 6 of every value), a box of iron core inductors that is backbreaking heavy, a box of air-core inductors, boxes of acoustic foam, wool, felt, damping sheets, various types of glue, MDF and plywood, Dewalt table saw, chop saw and loads of other tools, spray paint and faux leather, laptop for measurements (I've probably missed loads of other stuff).
I've also bought a lot of drivers that I either sold on because I changed my mind or destroyed through experiments. Although I hate wasting money, I know people that are happy to snort £100 of cocaine most nights, so it doesn't make me feel so bad about destroying a few £60 drivers (and learning something in the process).
I've also bought a lot of drivers that I either sold on because I changed my mind or destroyed through experiments. Although I hate wasting money, I know people that are happy to snort £100 of cocaine most nights, so it doesn't make me feel so bad about destroying a few £60 drivers (and learning something in the process).
There's no need to worry, as some of the those things are not consumable items but investments e.g. microphones, software etc. These may be termed as the hidden costs pertaining to DIY, especially tools and equipment.
Could you please elaborate how you were able to forsee your satisfaction beforehand? Maybe that would help other less experienced members here evaluate a kit they come across (in terms of satisfaction).
classicalfan said:
Could you please elaborate how you were able to forsee your satisfaction beforehand? Maybe that would help other less experienced members here evaluate a kit they come across (in terms of satisfaction).
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I'm not sure why anybody would give a thumbs down to "Diablogt"'s post. It seems logical to me, unlike the way that people always seem to compare DIY speaker cost to that of new professional products. Mine (second user) have always cost between 35% to 40% of their original new prices. Obviously somebody has lost the 60% but it was not me, so I don't mind too much
(People buying new seem swayed by the latest model and it's hype, (what do 40KHZ diamond tweeters contribute that good foil capacitors cannot?) so replace otherwise great products). Their resale value for me is almost the same as what I paid so I find it a great way to try out different speakers and other audio to see if I like them and if not, just resell them with very little financial loss. As I have said, it won't stop me DIY'ing but I will have a comparison to judge my home made speakers against. It's too easy just to subjectively hail our own creations as "fantastic". I am talking about middle to high end products, ("When somebody buys a $100k speaker and after 3 years he sells it for $30K "). I'm the guy who wants to buy the $30K speaker, though my budget is somewhat lower!
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What do you expect to get for that $30K, originally $100K? What would be the attraction? The former price of admission?
I'd rather choose a well engineered product with a little less coats of polished paint.
Or rather yet, design and build them myself so I'm assured they will work well within the room I have.
(and if I would like to, I could spend a lot of time polishing)
For the record, I've build one pair of speakers, one pair of ambient speakers and one pair of subwoofers. I'm not worried about resale factors as I have no plans to sell any of it. I've spend about 2 years learning, designing and planning the speakers, 1.5 year building it and have been listening to them for 6 years. This year I will replace/upgrade the drivers so I get to enjoy them for at least 10 more years. No plans to build anything else. I'm having way too much fun playing with what I've got.
I'd rather choose a well engineered product with a little less coats of polished paint.
Or rather yet, design and build them myself so I'm assured they will work well within the room I have.
(and if I would like to, I could spend a lot of time polishing
)For the record, I've build one pair of speakers, one pair of ambient speakers and one pair of subwoofers. I'm not worried about resale factors as I have no plans to sell any of it. I've spend about 2 years learning, designing and planning the speakers, 1.5 year building it and have been listening to them for 6 years. This year I will replace/upgrade the drivers so I get to enjoy them for at least 10 more years. No plans to build anything else. I'm having way too much fun playing with what I've got.
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As for myself, I'd never spend $30K on any type of audio. I would though buy if they came up a pair of the older Revel Ultima Salon 1's, something from EgglestonWorks or maybe something similar at a reasonable price, £4k or so) Some things are just bonkers prices, I've built 2 ways before, I built one using PHL 1220 Low/Mid and Seas 27tdfc tweeter, a few years before the Stenheim Alumine was released, by chance theirs had the same drivers, a similar sized box, and mine cost about £500 to build. (Theirs is about £10K new). (I used birch ply for the cabinet they use aluminium). I prefer high efficiency speakers the most, maybe it's just me, but they always seem more "Alive", they don't seem very common, so that's why I will build myself time permitting. (I have all the PHL drivers required already, 4 off 15" Bass, 2 off 10" Low Mid, 2 off 8" Mid or 4 off 6" Mid and some TLR tweeters, including also a few optional choices). I've sourced these over a few years at very reasonable prices, so have only about £1k invested up to now. What I need is confidence and a good crossover design, that's where I'm weak. I also do not like some of the very defined breakup modes on the PHL's so have been considering possible cures for those like slightly stiffening the cones just outside the dust cap using shaped carbon fiber scrim. (I may be totally wrong in this and I have to make parts and do some tests first).
Examples of some present bargains.. It takes time, but is achievable.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234007521654?hash=item367bef6976:g:gk8AAOSwUORgnUAg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324835849898?hash=item4ba1b9b6aa:g:7-kAAOSwKV9cS1Eh
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234007798721?hash=item367bf3a3c1:g:9GAAAOSwa2lgnWJq
I do though have many other demands on my time, so fitting all these extras in is problematic.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234007521654?hash=item367bef6976:g:gk8AAOSwUORgnUAg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324835849898?hash=item4ba1b9b6aa:g:7-kAAOSwKV9cS1Eh
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234007798721?hash=item367bf3a3c1:g:9GAAAOSwa2lgnWJq
I do though have many other demands on my time, so fitting all these extras in is problematic.
That long ago, I remember obsessing over parts-express and the selection of drivers, as I learned the world of DIY. I remember seeing new drivers from Vifa or what have you, come on to the scene, it would be a new 4" mid that cost 10 bucks, everyone loves it. Within a month or two, that same driver would go from 10 to 65 bucks.....eventually that driver would disappear off the market and you would see it in a pro design.
Its always been my experience that I got more bang for the buck with DIY aimed at my personal wants versus getting those desires in a manufactured speaker....I feel like the mid level of mixing monitors is a hard area to compete with when it comes to price to performance but if you were to attempt a 2 way of similar quality, you'd likely still end up with a nice/nicer sounding speaker that cost as much/more than the mid level studio monitor and looks no where's as nice lol.
When you step into the larger driver arena, I think SQ goes up faster than price. One could build a horned/waveguided 2 way for about 2-3grand that would be a end all system for a lot of people, yet people don't look to such solutions... especially the ones spending huge bucks on little surface area.
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Don't forget all horn designs need good EQ which is simplier to acheive with DSP EQ, complex computer/soft to avoid ADC before DAC : not cheap if you don't want to waste the quality of the good compression. Not for everyone. Many like passive filter and not all are able to work with passive parts as easily than a WYSIWYG electronic DSP on a screen. Not saying it can be expensive to acheive the last optimization percents by finding the right amount of parts values than a simulation can not find.
There is no evidence than DIY is less expensive at equal bucks than an off the carpet'hifi shop branded loudspeakkers. Even less if secondhand. Tons of good simple 2 ways everywhere and cheap: second hand, cheap studio monitors with good wave guides, often not so hard to tweak. All remember that could be done from the cheap Behringer with few diy on the stuffing than experienced member here and elswhere did 10 or more years ago ! Old second hand needs also DIY cause you have to refurbish the passed filter as the lhythic caps values drifted and that's not easy to find it to sound good. Not saying as well than one can redo all the filter like some members like to do. Also some good 2 ways second hand are good enough and the designers already chose and made an extensive job on the filter and parts choice, etc, etc !
For the complex high ends, object of the thread, it is indeed logic to think the enthusiast has not all the possibilities than a good brand has, when it comes to the no cost object sound. But indeed for comercial reasons you will not see special loudspeakers than the great enthusiasts explore here.
Some have pain to understand than DIY is not only about making a loudspeaker from scratch. Pure poor manicheism imho. There are several way to go diy and not sure than even the famous name of diy designers make always better loudspeakers than some off the shelves. One of my friend despite knowing a fanatic like I,we, are, is instead perfectly happy with his cheap active two way Edifier from Amazon !
His diy journey began on how to place his Edifier in the room... and that is somewhere DIY already.
People here mainly like to shape the sound, their goal is also about understanding and not just make saw as some like to convince themselves for mysterious reasons... And there are many way to skin a cat. I would say buying a kit is the less DIY behavior of all... more interessant to purchase a puzzle or at least as interressant, pffff !
There is no evidence than DIY is less expensive at equal bucks than an off the carpet'hifi shop branded loudspeakkers. Even less if secondhand. Tons of good simple 2 ways everywhere and cheap: second hand, cheap studio monitors with good wave guides, often not so hard to tweak. All remember that could be done from the cheap Behringer with few diy on the stuffing than experienced member here and elswhere did 10 or more years ago ! Old second hand needs also DIY cause you have to refurbish the passed filter as the lhythic caps values drifted and that's not easy to find it to sound good. Not saying as well than one can redo all the filter like some members like to do. Also some good 2 ways second hand are good enough and the designers already chose and made an extensive job on the filter and parts choice, etc, etc !
For the complex high ends, object of the thread, it is indeed logic to think the enthusiast has not all the possibilities than a good brand has, when it comes to the no cost object sound. But indeed for comercial reasons you will not see special loudspeakers than the great enthusiasts explore here.
Some have pain to understand than DIY is not only about making a loudspeaker from scratch. Pure poor manicheism imho. There are several way to go diy and not sure than even the famous name of diy designers make always better loudspeakers than some off the shelves. One of my friend despite knowing a fanatic like I,we, are, is instead perfectly happy with his cheap active two way Edifier from Amazon !
His diy journey began on how to place his Edifier in the room... and that is somewhere DIY already.
People here mainly like to shape the sound, their goal is also about understanding and not just make saw as some like to convince themselves for mysterious reasons... And there are many way to skin a cat. I would say buying a kit is the less DIY behavior of all... more interessant to purchase a puzzle or at least as interressant, pffff !
I thought it was interesting that one of the OP's original examples of an "un-diyable" speaker was the Sonus Faber Guarneri (assuming the original and beloved Homage, a 14K speaker that I've heard and like a lot).
We also debated in the subsequent thread whether diy-ing some experts design was "just" being a woodworker or actually doing speaker DIY.
This particular example is instructive because something like it should be very DIYable, aside from the incredible cabinet--so a bit of the inverse of the claims above.
Let's just take the SFGH as a archetype: It is a ~6" 2 way with very well behaved but expensive drivers.
The drivers are from Audio Technology and Dynaudio.
We can forget whether they are "custom" or not--who cares--that likely doesn't add much to the performance.
A reasonably experienced DIY speaker designer with a pocket CLIO could produce dozens of fine sounding permutations of the SF Guarneri concept with the drivers of today: well behaved, high end 6" 2-way with shallow slopes--in our archetype its nominally at 2.5hz, but the designer could move that around.
We have AT, Elipticor, some Seas etc., to choose from, but we wouldn't use metal or ceramic cone stuff for this archetype.
Here's what MC says about the Xover:
The filters are nominally 6dB/octave over the crossover range, augmented by additional components to shape the acoustic output. The treble high-pass section thus has three elements: two film capacitors and an air-core shunt inductor. For the woofer's low-pass section, the primary element is a large series air-core inductor with an RC Zobel network and an additional film capacitor.
This isn't some product of an unlimited R&D budget or the electrical engineering involved in something like Kii Audio. Sure 'nuf if that's what I wanted, I'd just go out an buy it.
Similarly, a huge multi-way with complex crossovers and non-MDF or plywood cabinets is likely a challenge to do effectively and efficiently on a one-off basis.
But not all great high end commercial speakers fall into that category, and the SFGH is a good example of something we could design, build and tune to our liking.
Not so easy to make those SF cabinets from laminated staves of wood and lacquered with a secret blend Monteverdi's tears and varnish removed during the restoration of Da Vinci's Salvator Mundi (or whatever was used...)
We also debated in the subsequent thread whether diy-ing some experts design was "just" being a woodworker or actually doing speaker DIY.
This particular example is instructive because something like it should be very DIYable, aside from the incredible cabinet--so a bit of the inverse of the claims above.
Let's just take the SFGH as a archetype: It is a ~6" 2 way with very well behaved but expensive drivers.
The drivers are from Audio Technology and Dynaudio.
We can forget whether they are "custom" or not--who cares--that likely doesn't add much to the performance.
A reasonably experienced DIY speaker designer with a pocket CLIO could produce dozens of fine sounding permutations of the SF Guarneri concept with the drivers of today: well behaved, high end 6" 2-way with shallow slopes--in our archetype its nominally at 2.5hz, but the designer could move that around.
We have AT, Elipticor, some Seas etc., to choose from, but we wouldn't use metal or ceramic cone stuff for this archetype.
Here's what MC says about the Xover:
The filters are nominally 6dB/octave over the crossover range, augmented by additional components to shape the acoustic output. The treble high-pass section thus has three elements: two film capacitors and an air-core shunt inductor. For the woofer's low-pass section, the primary element is a large series air-core inductor with an RC Zobel network and an additional film capacitor.
This isn't some product of an unlimited R&D budget or the electrical engineering involved in something like Kii Audio. Sure 'nuf if that's what I wanted, I'd just go out an buy it.
Similarly, a huge multi-way with complex crossovers and non-MDF or plywood cabinets is likely a challenge to do effectively and efficiently on a one-off basis.
But not all great high end commercial speakers fall into that category, and the SFGH is a good example of something we could design, build and tune to our liking.
Not so easy to make those SF cabinets from laminated staves of wood and lacquered with a secret blend Monteverdi's tears and varnish removed during the restoration of Da Vinci's Salvator Mundi (or whatever was used...)