It is true for those of us who are woodworkers as well as audio enthusiasts. I never look at my time in the shop as wasted or regrettable, because I enjoy the hands-on experience of working with wood regardless of the specific project. If I wasn't building a speaker enclosure, I would want to be building something else anyhow.
But for those who don't have woodworking as an additional hobby, I understand why building speaker cabinets is more of a chore and requires time that they would rather spend elsewhere.
My original post that you quoted was a comment on people here who dismiss building your own speakers by claiming the superiority of commercial products. That is the false narrative that I was referring to.
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If building solid DIY speaker enclosures is challenging, we can always build a second wall inside the room for soffit-mount like speaker system. We may call it a full wall dipole. I guess it would be easier, more ideal, and it could sound better than any commercial speakers available on the market. Commercial speakers has be sold as a package (box), but DIYers don't really have to mimic it.
William Cowan did this years ago, and they sounded very, very good when I heard them.
To be honest I have only bought 1 pair of commercially made speakers before. They where a pair of Yamaha near field studio monitors for mixing. I never had a chance to use them as they where stolen before I even opened the box. They where like 85% off on the last day of a going out of business sale of one of the big stereo shops in LA years ago. I think it was the Federated Shop with ole Fred Rated. Some of you may remember them. It was a long time ago.OK. In a hope to unify people in a common idea, I'd like to ask a speaker related question.
Why do people buy some high cost speakers? (Obviously this is not a contentious issue as they are not DIY in any way).Please compare the two speakers below. One is about 20 times the cost of the other.
So I'm the wrong person to ask really because I have always built my own speakers whether it was car audio or home HiFi. I have more experience with car audio but these days its pretty much all home HiFi because I am done crawling up under dashboards and having my vehicle all tore apart for weeks at a time. Plus auto manufactures have taken all of the fun out of it with all of the integration of other car electronics into the stock radio. You can't just upgrade them anymore.
If I were like most people that just bought speakers I think my upper limit would be about $4,000.00 (USD). The speakers I am building right now are pretty pricy though. More so then any single set I have ever built. I am willing to spend more building my own speakers then I would ever be willing to spend on a commercial offering. For instance:
DRIVERS
2- SB ACOUSTIC Santori TW29TXN-B (T)
2- SB ACOUSTIC Santori 6 1/2"-MW16TX (MW)
4- SB ACOUSTIC 8" SB23MFCL45 (DUAL W)
$- A LOT
The cabinets will be custom finished and would be rather expensive if I where building them for someone else. If the speakers turn out like I want them to and I am successful at finishing the cabs like I envision them, then the end product would be worth more then $4,000.00 dollars for sure. More like $6,000.00 or maybe $7,000.00 if I figure in my labor.
What I'm trying to do is hard to explain but I want to put 3D ghost image's into the speakers finish. I've been sort of successful with a couple of test pieces so far but I'm not quite there yet and I'm still trying to work out the best process for doing this. I have spent quite a bit of money on some expensive tools and supplies for this project that I can use else where, but didn't really need otherwise. I don't mind spending the money as long as it gets me to my goals end. This project is a major challenge for me as I am trying to develop a way of doing something I have never seen anybody do before and I want to do it. In the end I want a set of floor standers that show case California's iconic landmarks based on area codes starting in San Diego and working up the cost to the Oregon boarder. Images like the Golden Gate Bridge, Hollywood Sign, Wineries and Grape vineyards, Snow Skiing, Surf at Rin Con, Redwood Trees and what not. California really is a great place to live if you can get past the politics and the cost of living here and I want to showcase it in 3 dimensional half tone ghost images set into a pre cat nitrocellulose lacquer finish.
So you can say I'm swimming in the deep end of DIY swimming pool right now.
I’ll continue to prioritize my time between huge bus conversion projects, a family with special needs child, home woodworking projects, demanding job, sports car build…
That wasn’t so much as a false narrative, just that your reality just isn’t everyone else’s reality, not sure if that was received. My ROI isn’t as good on speakers unfortunately, am glad it is for you though, can be rewarding.
I don't really understand what the issue is that you are trying to raise here. I've never suggested that people who don't have the skills, time, or interest in building their own speakers should do so.
My earlier comments had to do with the false narrative promoted by people who claim the superiority in terms of performance and a cost benefit of commercially made speakers over DIY builds. That is where the false narrative lies.
Whether someone is capable and inclined to build their own is an entirely different matter. That is up to them and I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do.
I use to strive for this very effect with the sound systems in my vehicles back in the late 80's early 90's. I had a different approach then most people did. I used a lot of drivers and tailored the x-overs with very narrow bands and steep slopes. Especially with tweeters. I found that certain speaker cone materials would voice certain instruments better so I would try and place them advantageously and tailor their cross overs to the frequency range of the instruments I wanted to hear out of them as apposed to the useable frequency range of the driver. So if I wanted to hear say a saxophone, they sounded best played back on the cheapest drivers of them all. The mica cone tweeters. They where $3 a piece and a half an inch in diameter and fit perfect in the top of the A pillar. Pad them down with a narrow band pass forth order cross over and every time a saxophone was playing you heard it totally separated from the other interments. Then there was the 8" paper pro sound high out put high efficiency midrange driver tailored for heavy metal electric guitar. Then there was the treated fabric soft dome tweeters up on the dashboard at the A pillar with the widest range set for vocals. There where also sound reinforcement drivers installed in the air vents up under the dash so the sound came out of the air vents. In my Ford F-150 standard cab with a sleeper shell attached I had something like 22 drivers in the cab. Even at high decibels there was no blaring drivers and you could talk over it even though it was loud and the sound was incredible.
I would describe my system to guys that installed car audio systems for a living, even shop owners and they would all say the same things. You don't want to do this or that or what ever it may be but once they all had a chance to hear my system then they wanted to know what I was doing. What made things even more baffling to people that heard my system in that truck of mine was the fact that the whole system was concealed. You could only see two drivers in the lower part of the doors and that was it besides the head unit. I had two 15" sub woofers in there as well. The whole system was 440 watts RMS Hollywood Sound Labs Amplifiers.
Later on my systems where installed in bigger vehicles with huge wattage Orion amps and subs that had the ability to tear your car apart with the constant flexing from the cabin compression. Yea they got out of hand.
Building a custom project is not always a success. I bought such a custom project from Kevin Brooks of Sierra Brooks horn duo. Experienced DIY or semi pro and not a novice by any means. Matrix triple chamber 12 cubic feet, dual layer of Baltic birch plywood MTM enclosure for 2x 15: tad 1602 and TAD TD4001 on tractrix horn in the middle. Cabinet maker in Salt Lake City built enclosure in Tannoy fashion at $6k cost years ago. (it would be at least double that now) Original Tannoy grill cloth from Britain costed a fortune. The project turned out being a turd. It had two owners and they got rid of it promptly. I bought it for less than TAD parts cost. Not all DIY folks (most but not all are divorced, abandoned and alone. Some must adhere to a furniture standard of speakers residing in the living room (those who have been banned to basements don't count) Such a standard is not easy to achieve even for a "weekend warrior" woodworker. DIY speaker junky rarely ends up just building one speaker and enjoying fruits of his labor. Soon, closet, basement and attic fill up with parts. There are bargains impossible to resist, there are speakers everybody raves about and soon initial goal of saving money goes sideways. Worse, in a lot of cases the parts are piling up and nothing is really playing (except flea market factory junk bought for the shop)
I think Dave Wilson started in his garage. Franco Serblin had no idea what he was doing at the beginning and it's probably true with all good speaker designers. They had to start somewhere. I think they succeeded because they were humble The reason expensive speakers exist is that it is a luxury market and not a first need goods. Speakers made in first world are necessarily more expensive than those made in China and there is a lot of people who earn unimaginable for the common folk amount of money, and they want the best there is and never ask about the price.
are divorced, abandoned and alone. Some must adhere to a furniture standard of speakers residing in the living room (those who have been banned to basements don't count) Such a standard is not easy to achieve even for a "weekend warrior" woodworker. DIY speaker junky rarely ends up just building one speaker and enjoying fruits of his labor. Soon, closet, basement and attic fill up with parts. There are bargains impossible to resist, there are speakers everybody raves about and soon initial goal of saving money goes sideways. Worse, in a lot of cases the parts are piling up and nothing is really playing (except flea market factory junk bought for the shop)I think Dave Wilson started in his garage. Franco Serblin had no idea what he was doing at the beginning and it's probably true with all good speaker designers. They had to start somewhere. I think they succeeded because they were humble
The reason expensive speakers exist is that it is a luxury market and not a first need goods. Speakers made in first world are necessarily more expensive than those made in China and there is a lot of people who earn unimaginable for the common folk amount of money, and they want the best there is and never ask about the price.If this accurately describes your DIY experiences, then apparently the hobby is not a good fit for you. And I suggest you find some other way to spend your time that you can enjoy.Building a custom project is not always a success. I bought such a custom project from Kevin Brooks of Sierra Brooks horn duo. Experienced DIY or semi pro and not a novice by any means. Matrix triple chamber 12 cubic feet, dual layer of Baltic birch plywood MTM enclosure for 2x 15: tad 1602 and TAD TD4001 on tractrix horn in the middle. Cabinet maker in Salt Lake City built enclosure in Tannoy fashion at $6k cost years ago. (it would be at least double that now) Original Tannoy grill cloth from Britain costed a fortune. The project turned out being a turd. It had two owners and they got rid of it promptly. I bought it for less than TAD parts cost. Not all DIY folks (most but not all
I think Dave Wilson started in his garage. Franco Serblin had no idea what he was doing at the beginning and it's probably true with all good speaker designers. They had to start somewhere. I think they succeeded because they were humble
Fortunately, for many of us the experience is exactly the opposite of what you describe and is very rewarding both from a cost and a personal satisfaction point of view. But, as I said in my Post #286 above, it is not for everybody.
This is a good example of the reality of used DIY speakers' market.Building a custom project is not always a success. I bought such a custom project from Kevin Brooks of Sierra Brooks horn duo. Experienced DIY or semi pro and not a novice by any means. Matrix triple chamber 12 cubic feet, dual layer of Baltic birch plywood MTM enclosure for 2x 15: tad 1602 and TAD TD4001 on tractrix horn in the middle. Cabinet maker in Salt Lake City built enclosure in Tannoy fashion at $6k cost years ago. (it would be at least double that now) Original Tannoy grill cloth from Britain costed a fortune. The project turned out being a turd. It had two owners and they got rid of it promptly. I bought it for less than TAD parts cost. Not all DIY folks (most but not all
When people see a DIY speaker on the used market, they consider it is an abandoned or failed project. They buy them with no confidence and they only would pay for the parts at most. When we buy a brand name commercial used speaker and it happen to be a very bad sounding one in your room, you may just think the speaker does not match to your taste, and you would never consider it as a failed project even if it really is. DIY speakers always have to fight with such a huge negative bias from the beginning...
This is the real world of DIY. However much we may think that our result/product is "world beating" there is objectivity to be taken account of. One simply has to look at tests like those in Stereophile, that have real data to see that even professionals get it wrong. Yes, DIY'ers have more time, and by using sites such as this, access to some very clever minds, but it's a risk all the same. I've yet to teach my last child to "Play nice". (Cobwebs are just for atmosphere).
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Very little risk, essentially none, if you build an existing design by one of the experts who have already done extensive testing and tuning. And yes, that is just as much a DIY speaker as one that you design yourself.
So, if you enjoy the design phase that's fine. It's what you should do. But if you simply want to get a great sounding speaker to enjoy listening to music at a bargain price, then building a proven design can't be beat.
What would a commercial bookshelf speaker cost that uses Scanspeak Revelator series drivers? Are there any out there? I built some two ways over the last dozen years tweaking and adjusting and measuring and simulating. And I’m not a bad wood worker. And I’m a working degree-ed industrial designer with a Fine Art and 3/4 of an electrical engineering degree as well. These little two ways sound amazing and look nice too. 8530 midwoofer and 2905/9500 tweeter. Lots of top end caps and coils. Sound better in ways than my factory made speakers.
Investment in time is immeasurable and parts perhaps $1600 Cdn not including the cabinets.
But really I’m just wondering which commercial speaker manufactures use the exotic drivers we hobbyist use? And what that markup would be. I know I can’t sell mine or anything but I’m just curious.
These things sound and measure better than my $5000 Sonus Faber Venere 3.0 towers. I’m guessing with the mark up formulas to determine retail cost over parts cost that my DIY speakers (if they were a manufactured item) would cost more than the SFs. A large manufacturer might get better prices on parts but not small manufacturers. Even the little guys have to buy from places like Solen.
And yes I started the hobby to save money but I’ve spent way more building than if I just settled for a pair of store-bought speakers 20 years ago. Oh well it’s been a journey!
Investment in time is immeasurable and parts perhaps $1600 Cdn not including the cabinets.
But really I’m just wondering which commercial speaker manufactures use the exotic drivers we hobbyist use? And what that markup would be. I know I can’t sell mine or anything but I’m just curious.
These things sound and measure better than my $5000 Sonus Faber Venere 3.0 towers. I’m guessing with the mark up formulas to determine retail cost over parts cost that my DIY speakers (if they were a manufactured item) would cost more than the SFs. A large manufacturer might get better prices on parts but not small manufacturers. Even the little guys have to buy from places like Solen.
And yes I started the hobby to save money but I’ve spent way more building than if I just settled for a pair of store-bought speakers 20 years ago. Oh well it’s been a journey!
People seem sometimes to be confused, I've seen people buy expensive "Tried and tested" designs from amateur enthusiasts/ semi professionals, and they have been great, others have been complete rubbish. That's the truth of the situation, it can all be too subjective. I bought my immaculate Micro Utopia's with stands and cover boards for £1050, 5 years ago. (Mine are the same as this the older non BE type)). Yes I think that they were a bargain, they are far from just another two way speaker, I could sell them for the same or more today. Can they be DIY' beaten at that price? I don't know. Some of the replies given here I'm sorry to say show me how difficult some find it to be objective, but it really does prove my point. DIY is always going to be more fun/rewarding/frustrating, where the balance lies is subjective.
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I can't relate to car systems as my 27yo car just has a couple of 6" 2 ways as all I listen to are podcasts and talkback radio, or more often than not, nothing at all. It's quiet reflective time for me.
I've been told that so many times now that I don't care. I know what I like and have enough knowledge and experience to have a fair confidence of success with my projects. To people who are really interested, I'll explain, but to those who want to know to mock, then sod you.
LOL, I wish mine was. The new FL horns ( a development of the old system) are sort of large. Like really large. No one is going to come into my living room and wonder where the sound is coming from.
I'm widowed. Your point is? Or was it just a snide remark?Not all DIY folks (most but not all
Just because a project doesn't work for one person, doesn't mean it won't for another. Also, why would anyone buy a DIY project for more than the component cost, and why even that much? I tend to trash failed design enclosures and keep the drivers*. My protos are always ugly and slapped together because they don't need to be any more than unfinished MDF to test measure. If they work, I sometimes build pretty boxes but my last surrounds worked well in the test enclosures so I used them that way until I broke them up recently for the house move in the NY. These will be rebuilt prettier, or I'll do the big horns again.
* In packing for the move, I found at least 50 drivers I'd forgotten I own which can get put into other projects or sold.
I think it accurately describes many of forums members.
There is no denying that loud hobby can create tensions and snoring is a last nail in the coffin ....
Snide remark. I'm divorced (twice) and both of my Ex'es said that they were fed up with audio junk (among other things
There is no denying that loud hobby can create tensions and snoring is a last nail in the coffin ....
I'm sure you know, but it's worth pointing out for newer DIYers, that a company that uses the same driver you do, will pay substantially less for it buying it by the hundreds than you will buying 2.
15 to 20 years ago, most high-end speakers used off-the-shelf drivers. I could look at a ProAc, Monitor Audio, PSB, Snell, or Thiel and easilly identify the drivers as Seas, ScanSpeak, Vifa, Focal, Dynaudio, Audax, etc. So it was easy to compare the cost of the drivers with the retail cost of the speaker.
The ratio was almost always between 5 and 10 times the cost of the drivers. Complex cabinets drove the ratio up, sophisticated cabinet finishes (high-gloss rosewood veneer, etc) drove the ratio up. Speakers made in the UK or Europe had a higher ratio than ones made in the US, and Canadian built speakers had a lower ratio... Some speakers had such elaborate cabinet construction that the ratio was very high... Wilson and Dunlavy (Duntech) come to mind... But those were the exception.
It is harder to do such comparisons now. Speaker manufacturers now specify enough cosmetic changes to their drivers that it is harder to identify them. And driver makers are more willing to make special runs of drivers for manufacturers. BTW, I believe Wilson currently uses quite a few ScanSpeak Revelators and Illuminator drivers.
But where we can identify drivers, the ratio is still valid. Speakers built in China are closer to a ratio of 5... Speakers built in the US, Canada, or Europe are closer to 10.
So how much does a cabinet cost to build ?... If you are KEF or Harman I do not know. If you are a small operation that builds 30 pairs of speakers a month, I think I can guess. There is also packaging and shipping costs. Distributor and retailer markups.
When I look at a really well done commercial speaker like the Revel Performa F228Be, I see about $1300 to $1500 worth of drivers, and the speaker sells for about $10,500... A ratio of 7 or 8. I also see a very well done cabinet, one that would take me many hours of labor to duplicate... and a crossover integration that is first rate. If I had to build an equivalent speaker, and sell it for a profit... I doubt I could sell it for $10k. I would be working for less than minimum wage... way less, actually, considering the time I put into my last cabinet.
So the point is... if you build a well regarded kit, your speakers will compare to commercial ones priced at 5x to 10x the cost of the drivers... if you do a great job on your cabinet (structurally, sonically, and aesthetically), your price ratio will be closer to 10x. This process makes sense if building things is something you enjoy. If you view the cabinet building process as simply a chore you must get through, then I don't think this hobby is for you.