First impressions from the added midrange ring pattern: it is possible to hear *every* little resonance from piano hammers! I'm pretty shocked at the amount of information that was previously being buried. What an amazing transformation! At this point I feel no need to surface coat anything - certainly not without extensive listening.
Since replacement tweeter domes are only $20, I attacked them even without a rapidograph pen. Paired with the LE8Ts, these tweeters only play from ~8kHz on up. Even though the acrylic patterns may be a bit chunky, the results are brilliant. The Morel MDT30S also have some proprietary surface coating that I was hoping wouldn't need to be covered up. The amount of extra volume is surprising but manageable via existing L-pads. All manner of percussion is so much more interesting. Importantly, the dispersion problem is resolved. Now, the listening sweet spot is the whole room. I am not exaggerating to say that the sound that filters 90 degrees off axis out of the living room (through the dining room and then) into the kitchen is now also high fidelity!
Woofer improvements will have to move down the priority list temporarily. Will report back when I can get around to taking them apart.
Cheers,
Frank
Since replacement tweeter domes are only $20, I attacked them even without a rapidograph pen. Paired with the LE8Ts, these tweeters only play from ~8kHz on up. Even though the acrylic patterns may be a bit chunky, the results are brilliant. The Morel MDT30S also have some proprietary surface coating that I was hoping wouldn't need to be covered up. The amount of extra volume is surprising but manageable via existing L-pads. All manner of percussion is so much more interesting. Importantly, the dispersion problem is resolved. Now, the listening sweet spot is the whole room. I am not exaggerating to say that the sound that filters 90 degrees off axis out of the living room (through the dining room and then) into the kitchen is now also high fidelity!
Woofer improvements will have to move down the priority list temporarily. Will report back when I can get around to taking them apart.
Cheers,
Frank
Attachments
And this is going to drive your wife how crazy? Mine opines that I will be done with audio when I can hear the oils from the pores in the skins of the musicians, slipping lightly out onto their skins.... I have to agree.
By the way, the treated bass drivers? Their working volume will become the entire house. Insubstantial things like walls and doors will be ignored.
Bud
A conservative approach?
OK OK... Bud, you've totally pushed my buttons! Rendering walls inconsequential was a primary design objective for these subwoofers. 🙂
I am willing to experiment because I got these drivers from my JBL Pro tech for the price of the rebuild kits. The frames are 2220A, the coils/cones are 2235. The only difference in the motors is that the flux density is 1.1 rather than 1.2 tesla. I want to be conservative with these drivers because as is they are very good indeed. There are few inherent flaws. They will beam up high, but I have never seriously sent them any signal above 200 Hz and at the moment they only get 120 Hz on down. That's all adjustable in software, making experimentation easy. Ron Carter's jazz bass does get out of shape but that seems to be a combination of causes, not the least of which is studio mastering.
Tap tests on these cones are a whole lot different from smaller FR drivers because Fs is 20Hz and the moving mass is 155 grams. The ridges on the cone are not mere corrugations - the backs are almost flat. These cones are thick and very stiff. You have to tap with a bare finger to hear the deep resonance. Resonance decreased from the dust cap out to the 8th concentric ridge, after which it increased. A coat of Zig from ridge 8 out to the edge of the surround is getting that reversal under control. No worries there.
Point 1... It's the ridges that present the theoretical challenge, no? First, what a great guide for the pen, but one can't use a very broad tip. But second, any radial wave propagations probably jump from valley to valley, where the cone is thinner. I'm thinking that ring patterns have to go in the grooves, and an acrylic segment would have the effect of coupling adjacent fiber ridges. If valid, the question becomes: for the frequency of the surface distortion that one gets below 160Hz, is it better to make a paired pattern by treating adjacent grooves, or perhaps better to skip a groove so that the interference pattern effectively involves four adjacent fiber ridges?
For adjacent grooves, the arrows in the photo show my initial idea for which locations would get the acrylic. Out at the edge, 10 degrees is an arc of ~1.2 inches. 😛
Point 2... This surface is raw paper, but sealing the surface with a pre treatment just worries me. There is so much fiber here. It could be a sponge and untreated it's already SO stiff. Somebody please tell me that, untreated, I'll get better effect from the atypically narrow ring patterns in the grooves if the acrylic can penetrate the surface fiber. ...and I can always surface treat afterwards as a final step. If that logic is flawed, your reasons will be much appreciated! 😕 But remember, ~160 Hz on down ...
The domes... Not so worried about these <160 Hz... An edge and a center, like on the tweeters?
Regards,
Frank
PS, when my wife is home, SHE is my music. But she is traveling this weekend so let the games begin!
OK OK... Bud, you've totally pushed my buttons! Rendering walls inconsequential was a primary design objective for these subwoofers. 🙂
I am willing to experiment because I got these drivers from my JBL Pro tech for the price of the rebuild kits. The frames are 2220A, the coils/cones are 2235. The only difference in the motors is that the flux density is 1.1 rather than 1.2 tesla. I want to be conservative with these drivers because as is they are very good indeed. There are few inherent flaws. They will beam up high, but I have never seriously sent them any signal above 200 Hz and at the moment they only get 120 Hz on down. That's all adjustable in software, making experimentation easy. Ron Carter's jazz bass does get out of shape but that seems to be a combination of causes, not the least of which is studio mastering.
Tap tests on these cones are a whole lot different from smaller FR drivers because Fs is 20Hz and the moving mass is 155 grams. The ridges on the cone are not mere corrugations - the backs are almost flat. These cones are thick and very stiff. You have to tap with a bare finger to hear the deep resonance. Resonance decreased from the dust cap out to the 8th concentric ridge, after which it increased. A coat of Zig from ridge 8 out to the edge of the surround is getting that reversal under control. No worries there.
Point 1... It's the ridges that present the theoretical challenge, no? First, what a great guide for the pen, but one can't use a very broad tip. But second, any radial wave propagations probably jump from valley to valley, where the cone is thinner. I'm thinking that ring patterns have to go in the grooves, and an acrylic segment would have the effect of coupling adjacent fiber ridges. If valid, the question becomes: for the frequency of the surface distortion that one gets below 160Hz, is it better to make a paired pattern by treating adjacent grooves, or perhaps better to skip a groove so that the interference pattern effectively involves four adjacent fiber ridges?
For adjacent grooves, the arrows in the photo show my initial idea for which locations would get the acrylic. Out at the edge, 10 degrees is an arc of ~1.2 inches. 😛
Point 2... This surface is raw paper, but sealing the surface with a pre treatment just worries me. There is so much fiber here. It could be a sponge and untreated it's already SO stiff. Somebody please tell me that, untreated, I'll get better effect from the atypically narrow ring patterns in the grooves if the acrylic can penetrate the surface fiber. ...and I can always surface treat afterwards as a final step. If that logic is flawed, your reasons will be much appreciated! 😕 But remember, ~160 Hz on down ...
The domes... Not so worried about these <160 Hz... An edge and a center, like on the tweeters?
Regards,
Frank
PS, when my wife is home, SHE is my music. But she is traveling this weekend so let the games begin!
Attachments
Ribbed cones are interesting. They appear to be an attempt to break up the loop back characteristics by averaging them out over the cone surface. This is sort of effective. In other ribbed cones I have placed the patterns just before the ribs , moving radially out from the voice coil and out at the perimeter, just past the final rib. I don't see a reason not to try what you are indicating, certainly you will not hurt anything. Do expect the paint to sink in and spread out, so use a smaller pen tip. The width of each block is not as important as the length.
Just as a pointer to what I mean by similar results from ribbed cones and EnABL take a look at what a flat full range, more or less, driver required, to completely disperse the rather egregious problems that the driver offered when listened to, nude on a stand.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ng-impressions-techniques-55.html#post2343690
The test results in a blink comparison are here. Just move your pointer far to the right and back to obtain the blink.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/119677-enabl-technical-discussion-88.html#post2349700
Those ribs do seem to begin right about at the end of the minimum phase emission portion of the JBL cone, based upon other ribbed cones and the many smooth surface cones that have passed through my fingers for treatment. As for coatings, no more than one coat of full strength Gloss.
As an alternative you could coat the entire surface with PVA, a trick taught me by Mile' Nestorovic, on ribbed cones, and that will get you to about 70% of what the three rings you are contemplating will provide. Modge Podge is a form of PVA with beneficial characteristics.
It is also likely that some damping material on the back side of the cone will help with the remainder of the Raleigh wave that circulates out there. A tap test on the back side will help to find the boundaries. Try a light tap with the thin solid end of the pen tip holder. Listen to the tiny sound at the beginning of the tap transient, just the surface noise, not the following deep tones. If there is a point where this surface noise suddenly seems louder, this is the beginning of the Raleigh wave zone.
Bud
Just as a pointer to what I mean by similar results from ribbed cones and EnABL take a look at what a flat full range, more or less, driver required, to completely disperse the rather egregious problems that the driver offered when listened to, nude on a stand.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ng-impressions-techniques-55.html#post2343690
The test results in a blink comparison are here. Just move your pointer far to the right and back to obtain the blink.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/119677-enabl-technical-discussion-88.html#post2349700
Those ribs do seem to begin right about at the end of the minimum phase emission portion of the JBL cone, based upon other ribbed cones and the many smooth surface cones that have passed through my fingers for treatment. As for coatings, no more than one coat of full strength Gloss.
As an alternative you could coat the entire surface with PVA, a trick taught me by Mile' Nestorovic, on ribbed cones, and that will get you to about 70% of what the three rings you are contemplating will provide. Modge Podge is a form of PVA with beneficial characteristics.
It is also likely that some damping material on the back side of the cone will help with the remainder of the Raleigh wave that circulates out there. A tap test on the back side will help to find the boundaries. Try a light tap with the thin solid end of the pen tip holder. Listen to the tiny sound at the beginning of the tap transient, just the surface noise, not the following deep tones. If there is a point where this surface noise suddenly seems louder, this is the beginning of the Raleigh wave zone.
Bud
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There was a bit of Raleigh wave on the 2235 cones but certainly not as prominent as on the LE8T. The surround glue may be serving as damping because it was sprayed-on and the overspray was obviously controlled to feather about 20 mm beyond the overlap. I added Zig from the edge of the overlap out about 3 cm, feathering at the edge. When the Zig was dry there was no hint of Raleigh wave behavior and with only 1 coat the resonance seemed even over this outer section. That edge corresponds to the location of the next-to-last circular pattern on the front side.
Auditioning now, and am very pleased. Everything you promised is more or less being delivered. The woofers were good before but now they're better. The overall effect is to bring them more seamlessly into the space-coherent environment created by the mids. It seems that there are fewer standing nodes in the very acoustically challenged living room, and you are right that the radiated sum outside the room is more unified. One small catch, though. My enclosures might have developed a tiny amount of audible resonance that I may need to defeat for tonal smoothness. Eventually I'll run some scans and size up the situation. Then I still have to decide on whether to add a surface coating.
There are many specific areas of improvement, including:
a) anything with bass viols or bass synthesizer. As expected, both are clearly more crisp and engaging.
b) Turgid passages of opera, some of the messiest signal I have, are way more lucid. some still have a ways to go, though...
c) I did *not* expect that club dance grooves would come to life! It's such simple stuff on the surface, but with the bass textures 'right', the room (well, the whole floor!) has the apparent size and ambiance of a night club. That's at 'don't bother talking' volume (and above)... 🙄
d) Like the LE8Ts, the higher the volume, the bigger the improvement. And again, redbook material has benefitted even more than HD tracks.
With more patience I would have liked to test before and after applying the next-to-outside ring pattern. But I do science for a living and this is supposed to be different from work. Those spots in the grooves did hold a thick coating of paint!
Bottom line - success well beyond my initial expectations! (and some cabinet work to do including experiment with port treatments... 😛)
Thanks, Bud, for your attention and encouragement!
Frank
Attachments
Welcome, as always.
Some things to consider.
Applying a coat of Gloss will make the bass more coherent. It may also aggravate some heretofore buried resonances. Further tap testing will find them and EnABL rings can go on the cone after the Gloss with equal results to those applied before Gloss.
The cabinet resonances were there before, however the energy from the driver was more spread out in time, with delayed "echoes" helping to distribute the energy, and so was not exciting the nodes in the cabinet to the same degree. You will find this to be true throughout your house, things will now walk off of surfaces so keep an eye out as you move around.
The room node loss is because the woofers are no longer providing the directed energy peaks, from loop back steering, that were creating those nodes at an audible level. The possibility for those nodes to arise is still there. There are EnABL treatments that will eliminate even more room nodes, looked into by Alex from OZ. They deal with the vertical room boundaries and relatively large pieces of clear plastic film, about 3 mils thick. He has also investigated port EnABLing with success and cabinet edge EnABLing, with equal though more subtle success. He has spoken of detailing the family cat.... but every surface he has treated has removed yet another level of "confusion" in the reproduced sound. Most of this information is in threads other than this one, but if you find him through the user information, his posts all have links to the threads this information is revealed on.
Your notice of improvement in inferior material has always been one of the more interesting aspects of EnABL. I have some postulates as to what is being done, to render greater clarity from less information, and that previously noted blink comparison may shed some light. It shows a longer period of energy emission, along with a narrower and stronger leading edge.
RANT
One of my findings in my audio explorations is that there appears to be a maximum information uptake rate and a minimum time of signal continuity required for clear comprehension. In addition there appears to be a leading edge comprehension that is quite a bit more agile than these tonal and decay comprehensions. That earlier referenced blink comparison shows me that EnABL'd drivers take more time to portray the information and portray it in a single event, rather than in a faster event, with less leading edge depiction and many more comprehensible "echos" in time. This stuttering, without a clearly defined leading edge, confuses the the comprehension of the sound and the broader, less intense, initial leading edge removes a vital "starting point" for or comprehension of the sound.
These limits are nowhere near those of our measurement devices. Because these limits do appear to be malleable with practice, just as all of the rest of our physiognomy is, some people can hear differences that others cannot. Because the differences we experience are the result of block processing, from a processor with a slow refresh rate, but with huge multithreaded analysis, very small changes from a typical single signal test result, changes that are "lost in the grass" but are expressed in reproduced music which is not limited to a single signal thread, are audible but difficult to find or credit in a test result. Meanwhile, test results that show obvious improvements in transient response, frequency response, phase change etc. across ever faster periods, are not appreciated in listening, much to the dismay of those who have spent their malleable times on testing rather than listening.
If you want to explore some more of this sort of investigation, search for "groundside electrons" here on diy, or google Audio Prism Ground Control.
Bud
Some things to consider.
Applying a coat of Gloss will make the bass more coherent. It may also aggravate some heretofore buried resonances. Further tap testing will find them and EnABL rings can go on the cone after the Gloss with equal results to those applied before Gloss.
The cabinet resonances were there before, however the energy from the driver was more spread out in time, with delayed "echoes" helping to distribute the energy, and so was not exciting the nodes in the cabinet to the same degree. You will find this to be true throughout your house, things will now walk off of surfaces so keep an eye out as you move around.
The room node loss is because the woofers are no longer providing the directed energy peaks, from loop back steering, that were creating those nodes at an audible level. The possibility for those nodes to arise is still there. There are EnABL treatments that will eliminate even more room nodes, looked into by Alex from OZ. They deal with the vertical room boundaries and relatively large pieces of clear plastic film, about 3 mils thick. He has also investigated port EnABLing with success and cabinet edge EnABLing, with equal though more subtle success. He has spoken of detailing the family cat.... but every surface he has treated has removed yet another level of "confusion" in the reproduced sound. Most of this information is in threads other than this one, but if you find him through the user information, his posts all have links to the threads this information is revealed on.
Your notice of improvement in inferior material has always been one of the more interesting aspects of EnABL. I have some postulates as to what is being done, to render greater clarity from less information, and that previously noted blink comparison may shed some light. It shows a longer period of energy emission, along with a narrower and stronger leading edge.
RANT
One of my findings in my audio explorations is that there appears to be a maximum information uptake rate and a minimum time of signal continuity required for clear comprehension. In addition there appears to be a leading edge comprehension that is quite a bit more agile than these tonal and decay comprehensions. That earlier referenced blink comparison shows me that EnABL'd drivers take more time to portray the information and portray it in a single event, rather than in a faster event, with less leading edge depiction and many more comprehensible "echos" in time. This stuttering, without a clearly defined leading edge, confuses the the comprehension of the sound and the broader, less intense, initial leading edge removes a vital "starting point" for or comprehension of the sound.
These limits are nowhere near those of our measurement devices. Because these limits do appear to be malleable with practice, just as all of the rest of our physiognomy is, some people can hear differences that others cannot. Because the differences we experience are the result of block processing, from a processor with a slow refresh rate, but with huge multithreaded analysis, very small changes from a typical single signal test result, changes that are "lost in the grass" but are expressed in reproduced music which is not limited to a single signal thread, are audible but difficult to find or credit in a test result. Meanwhile, test results that show obvious improvements in transient response, frequency response, phase change etc. across ever faster periods, are not appreciated in listening, much to the dismay of those who have spent their malleable times on testing rather than listening.
If you want to explore some more of this sort of investigation, search for "groundside electrons" here on diy, or google Audio Prism Ground Control.
Bud
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I'll try it!
I'm inclined to think that those responsible for the 'improvements' would benefit from a survey of sensory neurobiology. An excellent review of the auditory sensory apparatus (as of a few years ago) is currently available from this free site: http://www.iib.uam.es/servicios/nin...ayo/Hair_Bundle_2006_NATREVNEU_Fettiplace.pdf
Note:
a) The tuning frequency of auditory sensor cells broadens with increasing signal amplitude. So a slightly more prominent leading edge probably recruits a few more sensory cells and their nerve fibers, to pull previously unnoticed sounds 'out of the grass'.
b) Inner and outer hair (sensory) cells probably have somewhat different functions, the latter including regulation in an afferent feedback loop in addition to sensation. ...all the more reason to expect non-linear sensory responses and selective filtration of incoming information at the primary sensor (hair cell) level. Of course, subsequent central auditory processing involving selective attention, etc., is an engineering morass!
Cheers,
Frank
Interesting information on the various roles of the hairs in the mammalian cochlea. I haven't enough skill nor information to speculate, other than to note the amazing sensitivity allowed. My explorations are from within the morass.
I find an obvious semi autonomous threat correlation system. Hooked into all of the sensory gear, with two interesting events available.
First is the ability to lead the conscious mind along a merry path of day dream / fantasizing / thinking, until an unknown threat arises. At which point the day dream etc is broken and a conscious analysis of the unknown, potentially threatening, sense input is REQUIRED. No deviation allowed, until this is accomplished. Meanwhile flight or fight is being enabled. If the potential threat is consciously classified as not a threat, the FoF gear is shut down and the day dream, or another, is resumed, keeping the conscious mind occupied and out of the loop.
Second is when the threat assessment then "turns off" that specific stimulation being investigated, so it can assess other potential threats being masked by the one just relegated to known. The conscious portion or our experience has quite a difficult time reacquiring that input.
Known threats appear to come in two classes, ones for which no prior experience needs to have occurred and threats learned in this lifetime. This threat assessment "level" of semi autonomous consciousness is where I was taught to apply my "abiding consciousness" learned in meditation, to prepare for a response utilizing "martial arts". It is rather amazing to acquire this ability and can be quite overwhelming until you learn how to choose from the uncensored palate provided.
I find the acclimatization period with new audio equipment, or something like EnABL, to show off this process very clearly.
For something completely different, you might apply the Gloss in stages. Initially just the area between voice coil and first ring set. Allow a 24 hour period for full cure and try the light tap test you performed while looking for the Raleigh wave on the back, to discover if there are resonances that have been excited into audibility, further up the cone in a radial direction. If none are noticed then coat up to the next to last ring, with attendant cure, tap test and listening. The reason for this is to try to catch those unfound resonances, before you cover them with more.
Once coated, leave it alone and return to the LE8T. If the mid cone ring on the front is the start place for the glue on the back you should find another ring placed just inside the outer ring useful, probably pretty close to a continuation of ring sets rather than with a gap. If the glue line does not extend to the mid cone ring set, then another ring set. on the front side, at that point, will be beneficial. It is not unusual to end up with four closely spaced ring sets, out in the cone "breakup" zone. Each will add another layer of uncovered information to the sound field.
At that point you will have a powerful tool to search for actual "improvements" with, in your system.
Bud
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Considering the area of the cone, concentric application steps were a logical approach. To be honest, the microgloss scared me. [BTW, I suspect it is little more than acrylic floor wax.] I tried it on a few different types of craft paper and it penetrated fast, particularly when cut with water. The 2235 cones are so fibrous, I was worried they would suck up way too much material and change profoundly. My goal was to get the thinnest possible even coating. The method I found to work best was a) divide the cone into 3 concentric rings, b) working as quickly as possible, apply small brush loads of full strength material brushing it out radially as far as possible c) only lightly overlap wet edges and d) when a ring was done continue brushing the surface while applying low heat from a hair dryer. With the warm air the thin areas set up within seconds and any extra liquid gloss in thicker areas would easily brush out into areas that were dry. After this step drying was aided with additional heat (low setting) to drive off the acrylic smell and then I tap tested. I can see how microgloss might cause resonance changes based on how much this absolute minimal application lowered the surface resilience. But no problems developed with the 2235 cones and the speakers are playing beautifully! You were right that new room nodes could appear and one did - right at my wife's favorite sitting location. 😱 But the woofer energy transfer now is something to behold! As you mentioned, if I were to play the 1812 Overture too loud, I'd worry about the authorities showing up at the door to investigate my explosives lab...
I am very reluctant to further modify the LE8T because I could not enjoy the driver if it got even *slightly* brighter. On the plus side, it has become very well-mannered, predictable, and amazingly resolving. The recordings that still seem slightly compressed are a) not that important to me and b) opera in redbook format, wherein the singers easily can and do seem to drive the microphones and preamps to clipping. An additional front ring at the edge of the Zig would indeed be very close to the existing inner ring. I'm OK with relying on the existing ring patterns and their effects on the heavyweight cone paper (for a nominal 8) with it's stiff white factory coating. I re-tweaked the crossover frequency and curve for the 15" woofers (now 150Hz & 18 db/octave) and genuinely love what I'm hearing. Who knew that those recordings that seemed lifeless in the past were frequently just 'compressed', even by highly regarded (stock) transducers? 🙄 Now this system is really special! 😀
In software I tried shaving a decibel or so off of a zone centered on 4000Hz and it helped with 'listening comfort'. But even using 32 bit floating point calculations of the EQ curve, I could appreciate a slight degradation in midrange presence. So my default is to not use this EQ curve. On the flip side, however, with the microgloss on the 15's I was able to remove a subtle default bass EQ curve that was no longer needed. This helped smooth out the woofer enclosures. I can now live with them the way they are...
So with your help, Bud, three new driver models treated and IMHO three home runs!
Cheers!
Frank
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Excellent. Thank you for your courage and innovation. The hair drier was not something that had occurred to me. Those woofers will not be fully cured for about 48 hours and it will "speed up" over that time, a bit.
The extra rings on the LE8T are actually important for the phase relationship with the minimum phase portion of the frequency response. The frequency response doesn't change, but the phase can be brought from trailing to leading in the overall waveform, out in the room. We haven't actually figured out how that can be possible, unless a fully controlled transverse wave is actually being brought into play, but it is clearly shown in a series of tests by Sonngsc some years back. The audible result is a livelier upper mid range and lower high frequency area. If you are already at your desired limit for transient response, then you do not need to do more. If, over time, you begin to sense a lack of information content in this region, then that additional ring set on the front, at the beginning of the damping point on the back side, is the place to correct this.
You will become more discriminating over time, as you remap your expectations. Visits to other peoples systems will, unfortunately, become excruciating. When you have visitors, don't expect them to "get it" right away. As Dave Dlugos will corroborate, it takes some time to realize the depth of change you are hearing, some folks never do hear a difference, other wouldn't admit to hearing one, even on pain of death.
At some point obtain an 1812 with "live recordings of cannons., turn the system up to insane, open a few windows and walk down the street, just to see how far you can go before they aren't ..... irritating.
Greetings Bud et al.!
I hope you don't mind if I continue 'thinking out loud' in this thread by asking this question. You folks listen to a lot of drivers with a very critical ear. Have you ever noticed that humidity changes affect their performance? (I'm not sure about your location(s) relative to humidity, pacific NW?) Here in Minn. indoor air gets verrrry dry in winter. Among other things, it wreaks havoc with all manner of wooden instruments. For example, my sister keeps a humidifier running underneath her Steinway all winter. Cellists insert damp sponges in the F holes of their instruments, and only on towards April when huymidity returns will those instruments 'open up' and give a sweet full tone. Well, paper is cellulose just like spruce, and cellulose is very hydrophilic. [For example, cotton fibers (cellulose) are thought to maintain a hydration layer of a few hundred water molecules even at 5% (low) relative humidity.] So what about cellulose-based cones? If they are not humidity-sensitive, why not?
My 2235 cones were sounding absolutely awesome 48 h after I gloss treated them, but now they are getting a little 'tighter' and not as dynamic-sounding. Highly resolving, of course, but lacking a bit of the decay 'volume' they used to output. [the aqueous microgloss vehicle is dispersed via the cone fibers, of course, but they've now had time to get bone-dry] Since the cones now have a finish just like an acoustic instrument, I'm wondering if I can expect other similarities... I'm just thinking about whether it might be possible or desirable to manage the woofer response...
Best,
Frank
Maybe they should be painted with milk before the microgloss! 😉 ...JK!
Dear Bud,
Thought this would be of interest:
It's a cheap Fane 10", expertly EnABLed, then silver leafed instead of the gloss coating.
The silver leaf was purposely left ragged.
The effort was rewarded with a darkly beautiful toned driver ... in the manner of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau.
He is now well bedded in next to Joan Sutherland (the Lowther) in my practice Loudspeaker.
The progeny of tone are undergoing assessment.
My Best Regards,
Cilla
The lingering tones cross the river and depart:
At the sky's edge - how can they be found again?
Li Bo
Thought this would be of interest:
It's a cheap Fane 10", expertly EnABLed, then silver leafed instead of the gloss coating.
The silver leaf was purposely left ragged.
The effort was rewarded with a darkly beautiful toned driver ... in the manner of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau.
He is now well bedded in next to Joan Sutherland (the Lowther) in my practice Loudspeaker.
The progeny of tone are undergoing assessment.
My Best Regards,
Cilla
The lingering tones cross the river and depart:
At the sky's edge - how can they be found again?
Li Bo
Attachments
Hey Cilla
Neat idea, I want to spray fixative on it and scrimshaw a sailing ship..... nice to hear from you again, after so long a dry spell and just for your return..
Love is not what you think
Love is what you do, for if love is not what you do
Love is not what you think
Bud
Neat idea, I want to spray fixative on it and scrimshaw a sailing ship..... nice to hear from you again, after so long a dry spell and just for your return..
Love is not what you think
Love is what you do, for if love is not what you do
Love is not what you think
Bud
Frank,
The woofers will loosen up over time, slowly, and higher humidity will also help as they are more audibly susceptible now. I run a cold mist humidifier during our rather mild winters, though we are as far north as you, and try to keep internal humidity around 50%. You could also remove some damping material from the cabinet as these drivers are now very susceptible to critical damping, with a much narrower Q than before. Plus, there is that house as boundary factor, less rumbling running around in the cones and a much leaner presentation. I would EnABL the ports and the room corners, re-tune the damping and see if that doesn't bring you even more information and satisfy the dynamics issue.
Bud
The woofers will loosen up over time, slowly, and higher humidity will also help as they are more audibly susceptible now. I run a cold mist humidifier during our rather mild winters, though we are as far north as you, and try to keep internal humidity around 50%. You could also remove some damping material from the cabinet as these drivers are now very susceptible to critical damping, with a much narrower Q than before. Plus, there is that house as boundary factor, less rumbling running around in the cones and a much leaner presentation. I would EnABL the ports and the room corners, re-tune the damping and see if that doesn't bring you even more information and satisfy the dynamics issue.
Bud
Bud,
Thank you!
Very much appreciated.
Oh! Lets not forget the scrimshaw dolphins! ... then perhaps we could beckon the return of Mr. Tambourine Man and his dancing maenads.
Cilla
"A light breeze carries the songs into emptiness:
The melody entwines itself with the passing clouds and flies off" Li Bo
Thank you!
Very much appreciated.
Oh! Lets not forget the scrimshaw dolphins! ... then perhaps we could beckon the return of Mr. Tambourine Man and his dancing maenads.
Cilla
"A light breeze carries the songs into emptiness:
The melody entwines itself with the passing clouds and flies off" Li Bo
Attachments
G'day Frank,
RE: Room corner EnABL
If you can get permission from your significant other, make sure you go from floor to ceiling in all available corners.
This will change the sound in your room very noticeably and wonderfully - particularly in the bass.
Two changes you might notice if you EnABL the room corners:
1) spurious sounds entering the listening room from outside it may become clearer and more intelligible
2) diffraction effects on furniture with hard surfaces (like cupboards, sideboards etc.) may also become audible. If so, you may find yourself wanting to EnABL these as well.
Cheers,
Alex
RE: Room corner EnABL
If you can get permission from your significant other, make sure you go from floor to ceiling in all available corners.
This will change the sound in your room very noticeably and wonderfully - particularly in the bass.
Two changes you might notice if you EnABL the room corners:
1) spurious sounds entering the listening room from outside it may become clearer and more intelligible
2) diffraction effects on furniture with hard surfaces (like cupboards, sideboards etc.) may also become audible. If so, you may find yourself wanting to EnABL these as well.
Cheers,
Alex
Dear Simon,
The purpose of the silver leaf is to increase the escape velocity of sound propagation across the surface of the cone. This frees up the harmonics of the driver.
As to looking "arty", don't know about that. I'm only concerned with Art: My practice in the Matter is revealing an 'inner vision' I have of Music. This 'vision' is grounded in what I call the 'Strength of Tone'.
Unless we possess our own 'inner vision', we will forever be, down wind sniffing the excrement of others.
All the best,
Cilla
The purpose of the silver leaf is to increase the escape velocity of sound propagation across the surface of the cone. This frees up the harmonics of the driver.
As to looking "arty", don't know about that. I'm only concerned with Art: My practice in the Matter is revealing an 'inner vision' I have of Music. This 'vision' is grounded in what I call the 'Strength of Tone'.
Unless we possess our own 'inner vision', we will forever be, down wind sniffing the excrement of others.
All the best,
Cilla
Thanks, Alex. This sort of room treatment investigation may have to await a larger block of time and energy than I can now summon. ...happy to try it, eventually. Woofer reflex ports and enclosure re-tuning should be next for me - maybe this weekend...
Frank
Frank
electrical tape has advantages
Greetings! Definite progress with bass distribution is being made here. Before EnABL I had never noticed differences in the Z axis (ie. floor to ceiling gradients).
... my variation on the method. I used two layers of electrical tape and cut it using a rotary textile knife/cutting board. I picked up the pieces and applied them to the ports using a pointed forceps. The nice thing about electrical tape adhesive is that you can reposition a block somewhat without pulling it up. You slowly slide it under downward pressure from your finger. ...looking at my photo, I see there are a few more adjustments to be made. 😛
The MS excel calculator was deluxe! The final blocks in all 4 ports aligned dead-on.
Frank
Greetings! Definite progress with bass distribution is being made here. Before EnABL I had never noticed differences in the Z axis (ie. floor to ceiling gradients).
... my variation on the method. I used two layers of electrical tape and cut it using a rotary textile knife/cutting board. I picked up the pieces and applied them to the ports using a pointed forceps. The nice thing about electrical tape adhesive is that you can reposition a block somewhat without pulling it up. You slowly slide it under downward pressure from your finger. ...looking at my photo, I see there are a few more adjustments to be made. 😛
The MS excel calculator was deluxe! The final blocks in all 4 ports aligned dead-on.
Frank
