Re: Horn bass
Hi Retsel,
I think you're refverring to the time delay of the horn when you say phase ? If so I use digital crossovers which allow me to delay the mains (and the sealed subs below) to match the labhorns. (I believe its 8ms but I'll check before obviously)
-You might have to sit on the monopole subs if you want to go deeper
considering the room size
Are you saying My 3 tempests at the moment will not go deep ? I get an easy measured 105dB @ 15Hz at listening position and on an RTA it measures flat to 10Hz. Didn't test lower / louder as my room was protesting 😀 Not sure what the room size has to do with bass output ?
Cheers,
Rob
Retsel said:
-snip-
I thought about using horn bass. I dropped that idea when I realized that I could not get as deep as I would like, and that there would be a phase issue with the mains. The huge boxes to get down fairly low are another issue.
I would be interested to know how your experiment works out by firing two lab horns in the corner. You might have to sit on the monopole subs if you want to go deeper
-snip-
Retsel
Hi Retsel,
I think you're refverring to the time delay of the horn when you say phase ? If so I use digital crossovers which allow me to delay the mains (and the sealed subs below) to match the labhorns. (I believe its 8ms but I'll check before obviously)
-You might have to sit on the monopole subs if you want to go deeper
considering the room sizeAre you saying My 3 tempests at the moment will not go deep ? I get an easy measured 105dB @ 15Hz at listening position and on an RTA it measures flat to 10Hz. Didn't test lower / louder as my room was protesting 😀 Not sure what the room size has to do with bass output ?
Cheers,
Rob
Retsel,
On second reading I think I missed a joke about the size of the labs vs my room size. 😀
Rob.
edit: the man I bought 2 of the tempests off did actually sit on the subs. Had his couch on top of a 18" riser, with the subs in the riser..
On second reading I think I missed a joke about the size of the labs vs my room size. 😀
Rob.
edit: the man I bought 2 of the tempests off did actually sit on the subs. Had his couch on top of a 18" riser, with the subs in the riser..
Bass, bass, bass, bass....
Delaying the mains is a good tactic for time aligning the main system with the horn subs, but you just added another set of components into the signal path of your mains with the resulting loss in tranparency. There is no free lunch.
I am sure that your existing tempests would do very fine to get down low at high output, especially below the cutoff of the horns. My comment was that you will start to run out of room (physically) with both the horns and the monopoles along with your main speakes and electronics, and you could save space by making the monopoles into some sort of chair or couch.😉
With this setup, you will clearly have outstanding bass with the capability for huge output. It would be impressive for that small space.
Just be careful that you don't damage your house... See this post and scroll down to the reference to using two contrabass subs: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60858&perpage=10&pagenumber=2
Retsel
Delaying the mains is a good tactic for time aligning the main system with the horn subs, but you just added another set of components into the signal path of your mains with the resulting loss in tranparency. There is no free lunch.
I am sure that your existing tempests would do very fine to get down low at high output, especially below the cutoff of the horns. My comment was that you will start to run out of room (physically) with both the horns and the monopoles along with your main speakes and electronics, and you could save space by making the monopoles into some sort of chair or couch.😉
With this setup, you will clearly have outstanding bass with the capability for huge output. It would be impressive for that small space.
Just be careful that you don't damage your house... See this post and scroll down to the reference to using two contrabass subs: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60858&perpage=10&pagenumber=2Retsel
I didn't check the link as I'm pretty sure it was by GM who blew his house apart with a pair of contrabasses. Hehe.
Re: the extra set of components. The digital xo will be there to cross from the labs to the subs anyway. It happens to be
the way I xo my main speakers aswell, so I've already got that 'resulting loss of transparency' in the chain. Using the delay will not add to the loss.. and I'm pretty sure that a digital xo will give analogue active filters that can do the xo, eq and delay that I need a fair run for the money.
I am happy with the dcx, warts and all.....
Re: space. The labs need to be 29" from the side wall which leaves a space 22" x46" x 8' for the tempests (may need to build a new enclosure for 1 of them though🙁 )
The screen goes in front of the labs/tempests, with the mains in front of the screen.
Cheers,
Rob
A silly pic of my room.(with planned subs)
Hehe.Re: the extra set of components. The digital xo will be there to cross from the labs to the subs anyway. It happens to be
the way I xo my main speakers aswell, so I've already got that 'resulting loss of transparency' in the chain. Using the delay will not add to the loss.. and I'm pretty sure that a digital xo will give analogue active filters that can do the xo, eq and delay that I need a fair run for the money.
I am happy with the dcx, warts and all.....
Re: space. The labs need to be 29" from the side wall which leaves a space 22" x46" x 8' for the tempests (may need to build a new enclosure for 1 of them though🙁 )
The screen goes in front of the labs/tempests, with the mains in front of the screen.
Cheers,
Rob
A silly pic of my room.(with planned subs)
Attachments
Hi
I do those kinds of pics ,too...
They're great for planning and thinkin things out
Smart move to put the equipment in the other room.
cheers 😉
I do those kinds of pics ,too...
They're great for planning and thinkin things out
Smart move to put the equipment in the other room.
cheers 😉
Well at least your smiling Rob.🙂 Thats a good sign.
I watched as Till (remember him) created his two-way system here. Sort of a mini VOT type of configuration. I thought to myself, "what if i used twin 10" horn drivers and shot for a cutoff in the 70-90Hz range". This would give me the mid-bass I've been looking for and should blend well to the mid-horns to boot.
Anyway, just a thought.😉
I watched as Till (remember him) created his two-way system here. Sort of a mini VOT type of configuration. I thought to myself, "what if i used twin 10" horn drivers and shot for a cutoff in the 70-90Hz range". This would give me the mid-bass I've been looking for and should blend well to the mid-horns to boot.
Anyway, just a thought.😉
Hi Rodd,
Good to see you back on the forum a bit more......
Of course I'm smiling, my glass of wine is next to me😀
It's funny how this threads gone. I asked about the labhorn/sealed subs thing and not much happened, but then mentioned I was going to build a midhorn just to see what it sounded like, and it took off🙂
I'm still putting my hands up at not being at all horn savvy, but I thought that the altecs were 'short horns' to load the higher freq's with a port on the horns back chamber to give a 'reflex' boost. Is that correct ?
I was wondering about how you'd load a 15" from 80-300
just in case it would squeeze into my room.. I've read that thread before, but will read it again to refresh..
In my mind I'm hoping that one day I'll have a bigger room and be able to soffit mount 3 big 80 - 20000 horn type speakers behind a large perf screen etc etc, and these musings are kind of 'prep' work.. Am happy to build prototypes, but my cab building skills are way better than my horn theory (Pretty non existant...) Hence my choice of trying other peoples designs..
Jan, The other 'room' is actually my porch (Small 'entrance hall' )... ( 6' x 7.5' ) 😀
Cheers,
Rob
Good to see you back on the forum a bit more......
Of course I'm smiling, my glass of wine is next to me😀
It's funny how this threads gone. I asked about the labhorn/sealed subs thing and not much happened, but then mentioned I was going to build a midhorn just to see what it sounded like, and it took off🙂
I'm still putting my hands up at not being at all horn savvy, but I thought that the altecs were 'short horns' to load the higher freq's with a port on the horns back chamber to give a 'reflex' boost. Is that correct ?
I was wondering about how you'd load a 15" from 80-300
just in case it would squeeze into my room.. I've read that thread before, but will read it again to refresh..
In my mind I'm hoping that one day I'll have a bigger room and be able to soffit mount 3 big 80 - 20000 horn type speakers behind a large perf screen etc etc, and these musings are kind of 'prep' work.. Am happy to build prototypes, but my cab building skills are way better than my horn theory (Pretty non existant...) Hence my choice of trying other peoples designs..
Jan, The other 'room' is actually my porch (Small 'entrance hall' )... ( 6' x 7.5' ) 😀
Cheers,
Rob
Rob,
I believe that you would not need to port your box if you only want to go down to 80Hz or so. You may have to scale the mouth size up a little bit judging from Till's response curves. It also looks as if your 300Hz top end is doable.
I believe that you would not need to port your box if you only want to go down to 80Hz or so. You may have to scale the mouth size up a little bit judging from Till's response curves. It also looks as if your 300Hz top end is doable.
Hi All,
there was talk a few posts ago about correcting for time delay when using a long horn.
If the bass horn (or sub-bass horn) were 3m to 6m longer than any other speaker in the system, do we need to delay all the other speakers to give the bass signal time to catch up?
What effect will no delay have on the overall sound and particularly at the xover region?
there was talk a few posts ago about correcting for time delay when using a long horn.
If the bass horn (or sub-bass horn) were 3m to 6m longer than any other speaker in the system, do we need to delay all the other speakers to give the bass signal time to catch up?
What effect will no delay have on the overall sound and particularly at the xover region?
Time delay in bass
I was the one who posted about this. I have experience with a Genesis 900 subwoofer which I used with my Hedlund Horns/Lowther DX4s. In addition to having adjustments in the crossover frequency and sound level, the Genesis 900 sub allowed for adjusting the phase angle of the bass, thus delaying the bass to integrate with the main speakers.
With the volume and crossover frequency set right, but with the timing wrong, the bass sounded good, but not quite in focus. This could give rise in people saying that the bass sounded a little "slow." Many might choose to turn off their subwoofer if the particular music being listened to has too much sound at the crossover frequency where the sound is a little muddy.
When the phase is adjusted to give the appropriate time delay, the bass signals snap into focus and it puts a smile on your face. 😀
One side note, integration of the two speakers at low frequencies is somewhat less important than at higher frequencies where poor integration is more easily heard.
Retsel
I was the one who posted about this. I have experience with a Genesis 900 subwoofer which I used with my Hedlund Horns/Lowther DX4s. In addition to having adjustments in the crossover frequency and sound level, the Genesis 900 sub allowed for adjusting the phase angle of the bass, thus delaying the bass to integrate with the main speakers.
With the volume and crossover frequency set right, but with the timing wrong, the bass sounded good, but not quite in focus. This could give rise in people saying that the bass sounded a little "slow." Many might choose to turn off their subwoofer if the particular music being listened to has too much sound at the crossover frequency where the sound is a little muddy.
When the phase is adjusted to give the appropriate time delay, the bass signals snap into focus and it puts a smile on your face. 😀
One side note, integration of the two speakers at low frequencies is somewhat less important than at higher frequencies where poor integration is more easily heard.
Retsel
Correct Retsel,
The problem Andrew is talking of is using a horn sub with conventional speakers. Then you need the delay on the main speakers, rather than the subwoofer.
Andrew if you use an AV amp then it should give you an option to change speaker distances. Just tell it your mains are 9ft (or whatever the horn length is) in front of your sub. It will do the delay for you. (As long as your speakers are set to small etc)
The problem is what to do if you want to put sealed subs below your subwoofer horn. Thats why I'll be using a behringer dcx xo on it.
Cheers,
Rob
The problem Andrew is talking of is using a horn sub with conventional speakers. Then you need the delay on the main speakers, rather than the subwoofer.
Andrew if you use an AV amp then it should give you an option to change speaker distances. Just tell it your mains are 9ft (or whatever the horn length is) in front of your sub. It will do the delay for you. (As long as your speakers are set to small etc)
The problem is what to do if you want to put sealed subs below your subwoofer horn. Thats why I'll be using a behringer dcx xo on it.
Cheers,
Rob
Set the subs back (or the mid-bass forward) to compensate for the arrival time delay in the horns. Putting them in the corner also gives you the benefit/headache of the corner loading.RobWells said:
Rodd,
In my case they'd be in the middle of the road that goes past my house 😱 😀 At least room modes wouldn't be a problem then...
My mdf arrives tomorrow, so will start to concentrate on the labhorns and Pi midhorns over the next few weeks.. may do the Pi's first as they're so simple, but somethings telling me I need to hear them labs..🙂
Corner loading is fine at the lowest freq's as the 'pressure loading' that happens at the lowest freq's isn't affected by room modes. My tempests will be low passed 24dB/oct at 32Hz, and are smooth as anything from there down.
Rob.
In my case they'd be in the middle of the road that goes past my house 😱 😀 At least room modes wouldn't be a problem then...
My mdf arrives tomorrow, so will start to concentrate on the labhorns and Pi midhorns over the next few weeks.. may do the Pi's first as they're so simple, but somethings telling me I need to hear them labs..🙂
Corner loading is fine at the lowest freq's as the 'pressure loading' that happens at the lowest freq's isn't affected by room modes. My tempests will be low passed 24dB/oct at 32Hz, and are smooth as anything from there down.
Rob.
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Rob, I think that you would agree that the experience of the mismatch in arrival of the sound is the same whether the bass is delayed or the mains (midrange) is delayed. In both cases, the effect is that the sound is a mismatch and not quite right. Thus the experience I shared is useful to Andrew. Thanks for pointing that out since it takes any uncertainty on his part that his different situation would lead to a different effect.
There is one difference, however, in how to fix the issue. Because I am adjusting the time delay in the bass, I am leaving my midrange alone where any loss in transparency is more critical.
Retsel
There is one difference, however, in how to fix the issue. Because I am adjusting the time delay in the bass, I am leaving my midrange alone where any loss in transparency is more critical.
Retsel
I was totally agreeing with your post Retsel, merely pointing out that Andrew had asked about how to align horn subs with 'normal' mains. What would you do if you used horn subs with your mains. Can you place your mains 9' behind a sub ?
Obviously you cannot bring the sub forwards with any adjustments to the bass signal - negative time delay is impossible (I think!), leaving you no choice but to 'mess' with the midrange to solve Andrews question.
Notice that both the ways I suggested will not 'add' to the signal chain. ie : if you use an AV amp anyway, or use digital xo's in your mains then you will not be adding any 'losses in transparency' to your system by delaying the mids. ie: you've already given up that transparency by choosing the av amp or digital eq.
Cheers,
Rob
Edit - said mains in front of horns, instead of the other way round
Obviously you cannot bring the sub forwards with any adjustments to the bass signal - negative time delay is impossible (I think!), leaving you no choice but to 'mess' with the midrange to solve Andrews question.
Notice that both the ways I suggested will not 'add' to the signal chain. ie : if you use an AV amp anyway, or use digital xo's in your mains then you will not be adding any 'losses in transparency' to your system by delaying the mids. ie: you've already given up that transparency by choosing the av amp or digital eq.
Cheers,
Rob
Edit - said mains in front of horns, instead of the other way round
If one did not have an electronic crossover available to them, it actually would be possible to vent the horn sub near the listening position thus correcting for the distance difference between the mains and the woofer. If you sit in the middle of the room, this would not be ideal since you lose the corner loading that you want with a horn. However, if you sit near the rear of the room, this could work. Some have done this even venting the horn through grates in the floor near the listening position.
The other limitation for this approach is that if you are crossing over above 50 - 60 hz, you would likely end up with some midrange sound in the horn and it would sound kind of bizarre having some of the midrange coming from behind you while the rest is coming in front of you.
Retsel
The other limitation for this approach is that if you are crossing over above 50 - 60 hz, you would likely end up with some midrange sound in the horn and it would sound kind of bizarre having some of the midrange coming from behind you while the rest is coming in front of you.
Retsel
Hi,
thanks for the insight to the delay problem. I have not started building the horn yet but I'm trying to get a handle on what electronics may be required to give it a chance to perform adequately.
For 5.1 AV sound the processor may be able to delay all the signals by the appropriate amounts but I don't know if it could cope with a 4 way speaker system (3 way + mono sub-bass).
For stereo I want to preserve as much of the signal as possible and this may need minimum electronics in line with the 3 way. It will be a case of finding which system/s can be adapted to suit the sub.
thanks for the insight to the delay problem. I have not started building the horn yet but I'm trying to get a handle on what electronics may be required to give it a chance to perform adequately.
For 5.1 AV sound the processor may be able to delay all the signals by the appropriate amounts but I don't know if it could cope with a 4 way speaker system (3 way + mono sub-bass).
For stereo I want to preserve as much of the signal as possible and this may need minimum electronics in line with the 3 way. It will be a case of finding which system/s can be adapted to suit the sub.
Hi all
I think digital crossovers/controllers are the easiest solution.
I debated back and forth before I finally got one about a year ago.
The thought of putting this "evil" digital thing into my system...
But having lived with it for a while I can't imagine doing without it.
Instead of thinking how to solve problems like different crossovers or time-aligning or eq, you just turn the dial. Problem solved. You can try out different settings in seconds, and save different setups.
You can even connect it to your computer and do all the adjustments on screen.
Of course you have to design your system around the crossover,
and it is very important to get the levels right. These are professional equipment so are a bit different than consumer stuff.
Here's a link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DCX2496/
cheers 😉
I think digital crossovers/controllers are the easiest solution.
I debated back and forth before I finally got one about a year ago.
The thought of putting this "evil" digital thing into my system...
But having lived with it for a while I can't imagine doing without it.
Instead of thinking how to solve problems like different crossovers or time-aligning or eq, you just turn the dial. Problem solved. You can try out different settings in seconds, and save different setups.
You can even connect it to your computer and do all the adjustments on screen.
Of course you have to design your system around the crossover,
and it is very important to get the levels right. These are professional equipment so are a bit different than consumer stuff.
Here's a link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DCX2496/
cheers 😉
The Behringer is an option. I never have tried using this, but some who have sold theirs after trying because of what it did to the transparency of the sound. Some have modified it to be less intrusive and this would seem to be a good option. It would be smart to try it in your system before going forward with designing an entire sound system assuming that you can use use one before knowing what it will do to the sound. After all, designing and building a sub horn is a big project.
Retsel
Retsel
I have ultracurve in my system, a similar unit. I find that whatever it might do to degrade the sound is imperceptible in comparison to the improvement. I wonder sometimes if lack of "transparence" is really in the mind of the listener, or was it established in a blind AB test where the signal is not altered, just allowed to pass through without any filters on.
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