what is happening if a 1" cd is loaded with a short dome tweeter horn like a Visaton horn please ? Or at worst without horn ?
the dynamic behavior would be still there ? I would like to understand if the dynamic people are talking about is about playing loud at live level or you feel that also a good horn/cd combo has more control, so maybe more headroom between the little spl signals and the big ones (say in a reccording where there is a big enough spl range) ? understand if one compare with a dome and both tech at casual home level and not caveman/beer level. So at iso average spl : say 85 db average for instance.
It's very hard to understand why a horn/cd will produce for instance a better bell, cymbal, ring sound than a 1" metalic dome for instance ? Is it because the hige emiting surface allowed by the horn ?
For me the discussion is a little odd, not because testimonials about what tech is better, but more because a lot of horn system are not full horned system. Often what is bellow 800 hz is made by standard cone driver (often PA origin though). And if it has a sense to talk like that : most of the music lives below 800 hz ?!
Note I avoided the soundstage discussion : I just want to understand about the dynamic and perhaps details behavior which are the qualities you are highlighting the most.
the dynamic behavior would be still there ? I would like to understand if the dynamic people are talking about is about playing loud at live level or you feel that also a good horn/cd combo has more control, so maybe more headroom between the little spl signals and the big ones (say in a reccording where there is a big enough spl range) ? understand if one compare with a dome and both tech at casual home level and not caveman/beer level. So at iso average spl : say 85 db average for instance.
It's very hard to understand why a horn/cd will produce for instance a better bell, cymbal, ring sound than a 1" metalic dome for instance ? Is it because the hige emiting surface allowed by the horn ?
For me the discussion is a little odd, not because testimonials about what tech is better, but more because a lot of horn system are not full horned system. Often what is bellow 800 hz is made by standard cone driver (often PA origin though). And if it has a sense to talk like that : most of the music lives below 800 hz ?!
Note I avoided the soundstage discussion : I just want to understand about the dynamic and perhaps details behavior which are the qualities you are highlighting the most.
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I achieve excellent results with 1940s vintage ALTEC multi-cell horns. They are not just for nostalgia anymore.
Thanks for introducing me to Charly Antolini Joe! I love finding music serendipitously like this. It was a little challenging to find this disc in the USA for any kind of reasonable $ (some vendors wanted upwards of $40), but I managed. Knock Out 2000 will be challenging my Radian CDs next week.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Fulcrum Acoustic's tells they have solved the compression disadventages
#2 - Temporal Equalization (TQ) - an overview - YouTube
Any good?
#2 - Temporal Equalization (TQ) - an overview - YouTube
Any good?
Small Waveguide: the waveguide doesn't support the compression driver as low as it can go. (..look to what it does for a tweeter: same thing for the compression driver assuming you can get a good coupling to the waveguide with the CD. Faster expansion at CD entrance means more diffraction there, but less at "mouth" of waveguide as it transitions to the baffle).
No Horn: lots of substantive diffraction around the wavelength of the 1" exit (and this "ripples" well down to lower freq.s). Still, you could avoid this with a steep low-pass filter before then (say 7-8 kHz) and use a super tweeter for those higher freq.s.
The main benefit of TQ is the correction of reflections going back down the throat due to sharp diffraction slots and poorly terminated horn mouths.
This is a big benefit for sound reinforcement. Less so in modern horn designs where these issues are addressed in the waveguide(and cabinet) geometry itself.
It would be a nice tool to have for diy.
This is a big benefit for sound reinforcement. Less so in modern horn designs where these issues are addressed in the waveguide(and cabinet) geometry itself.
It would be a nice tool to have for diy.
Forgot to mention. TQ doesn't correct the main downfall of compression drivers. The air at the phase plug becomes non linear at high spl producing unavoidable distortion. Luckily it doesn't become too objectionable until you're well into live music sound levels.
There are only a couple alternatives and they're more suited to line arrays. AMT and planars.
There are only a couple alternatives and they're more suited to line arrays. AMT and planars.
Hi,hweb
I took that Charly Antolini CD to a Rocky Mountain audio show to an ATC speaker demo. They said those active speaker systems ($25K) could play at 100db+ without having any problems. Well, they were true to their word and played tracks 8 and 10 at a measured 104db at 8' on center !!! Instead of people running out of the room, the room filled to capacity and mostly all the Charly Antolini CD's on Amazon a& Ebay were bought up on the spot !! The 2 guys giving the demo were the first to buy the CD. Those ATC active speakers are one of the best box speakers I ever heard--and they were not a very big 3 way speakers. I was impressed with the clarity, dynamics, and lack of distortion. Those speakers rocked---but at $25k ???
Joe
I took that Charly Antolini CD to a Rocky Mountain audio show to an ATC speaker demo. They said those active speaker systems ($25K) could play at 100db+ without having any problems. Well, they were true to their word and played tracks 8 and 10 at a measured 104db at 8' on center !!! Instead of people running out of the room, the room filled to capacity and mostly all the Charly Antolini CD's on Amazon a& Ebay were bought up on the spot !! The 2 guys giving the demo were the first to buy the CD. Those ATC active speakers are one of the best box speakers I ever heard--and they were not a very big 3 way speakers. I was impressed with the clarity, dynamics, and lack of distortion. Those speakers rocked---but at $25k ???
Joe
here's a good CD which one can sometimes find for less than $10 shipped. Just drums. Two extended solos.
a little Karlson 12 can hang in pretty well with Charly and KO2000
here's something like what one will hear on the CD below
Lemmy Tribute by Steve Clarke 2016 - YouTube
a little Karlson 12 can hang in pretty well with Charly and KO2000
here's something like what one will hear on the CD below
Lemmy Tribute by Steve Clarke 2016 - YouTube
It could be a lot like the dome case, and quite narrow at the top end without the waveguide.
The one with the flower profile ?
Off topic : about drums : I found also indian tablas are a very efficient way to judge a system for mid bass and uper tones behavior : very fast rises and decays and superseeded hits make it hard to reproduc accuratly at live levels. Few harmonics I believe but a big width in frequencies... it climbs easily towards the treble and some not hitted notes, i.e. rubed with the flat of the hand go lows with complex harmonic structure...FWIW & YMMV of course. Zakir Hussain, Shakti with Mc Laughlin, etc...
Off topic : about drums : I found also indian tablas are a very efficient way to judge a system for mid bass and uper tones behavior : very fast rises and decays and superseeded hits make it hard to reproduc accuratly at live levels. Few harmonics I believe but a big width in frequencies... it climbs easily towards the treble and some not hitted notes, i.e. rubed with the flat of the hand go lows with complex harmonic structure...FWIW & YMMV of course. Zakir Hussain, Shakti with Mc Laughlin, etc...
Drums are definitley capable of showing a system's transient capabilities and peak levels. But not so much regarding tonality and freedom from harmonic distortion.
Joe's mentioning of Charly Antolini made me listen to this one again during my lunch break today. I haven't listened to it for more than 15 years because I was pissed off by the lousy quality of some tracks like nr. 2 for instance. But 8 and 10 are definitely cool. I also like Nr. 5 because it does also contain midriff massaging and trouser flapping bass.
A track from an another artist is also very nice when it comes to showing a horn's capabilities: Children of Sanches by Chuck Mangione. The instant when the big brass is coming in is something to be listened to on horn systems.
Regards
Charles
Joe's mentioning of Charly Antolini made me listen to this one again during my lunch break today. I haven't listened to it for more than 15 years because I was pissed off by the lousy quality of some tracks like nr. 2 for instance. But 8 and 10 are definitely cool. I also like Nr. 5 because it does also contain midriff massaging and trouser flapping bass.
A track from an another artist is also very nice when it comes to showing a horn's capabilities: Children of Sanches by Chuck Mangione. The instant when the big brass is coming in is something to be listened to on horn systems.
Regards
Charles
That's interresting, cause from a theorical point of view, compression drivers & horns seem to exhibit very complex - non flat- phase/groupe delay, making filters complicated -at least with passive parts-. I assume passive filters are difficult if not impossible to do on the transcient side à la Harsch, JMLC and else -not too much flat phase possible within the filters ovelaps areas for the people that want to make such filters ?
... But anyway, they seems to show due to their strong motor (?), impedance air adaptation with horn (?) that dynamic behavior that people praise ?!
I dream to listen to side to side a good classic 3 ways systems filter à la Duelund or at least quasi optimal, or Fired/EQ with a computer VS a horn system with the same level of work they definitly need to.
Cause at iso spl level, I don't understand where the game is played. I mean, the recordings have a dynamic window both technologies are able to play at normal home levels....
Not trolling but this makes me think of Bocani conversation about EQed drivers matchs.
If I have the time and hability I will benchmark myself a good 1.4" for instance with no horn in its usable frequency windows (so below its 1" WL break-up) against a sota dome in the same frequency window : so with flat EQ, brick wall HP & LP... in an average level where the dome don't distorse too much and can reach the highest dynamic peaks the reccording allows...
It has certainly be experienced by all the people whom are professionals in the loudspeakers making business I assume !
For instance : Zingali speakers, Avantguarde, etc.
... But anyway, they seems to show due to their strong motor (?), impedance air adaptation with horn (?) that dynamic behavior that people praise ?!
I dream to listen to side to side a good classic 3 ways systems filter à la Duelund or at least quasi optimal, or Fired/EQ with a computer VS a horn system with the same level of work they definitly need to.
Cause at iso spl level, I don't understand where the game is played. I mean, the recordings have a dynamic window both technologies are able to play at normal home levels....
Not trolling but this makes me think of Bocani conversation about EQed drivers matchs.
If I have the time and hability I will benchmark myself a good 1.4" for instance with no horn in its usable frequency windows (so below its 1" WL break-up) against a sota dome in the same frequency window : so with flat EQ, brick wall HP & LP... in an average level where the dome don't distorse too much and can reach the highest dynamic peaks the reccording allows...
It has certainly be experienced by all the people whom are professionals in the loudspeakers making business I assume !
For instance : Zingali speakers, Avantguarde, etc.
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I've compared a hornless comp to a Bliesma T34 from 2khz up.
I can't see any situation where a pair of Bliesma's wouldn't be enough in a typical home environment when used in that range. Goes loud as hell and sounds good doing it. Put it in a waveguide and you can get an extra 6 db in the bottom of its range.
I did ultimately pop it somehow with live uncompressed bass guitar use. Had no trouble keeping up with 98db midbass for hours on end for music playback at pa levels outdoors.
I can't see any situation where a pair of Bliesma's wouldn't be enough in a typical home environment when used in that range. Goes loud as hell and sounds good doing it. Put it in a waveguide and you can get an extra 6 db in the bottom of its range.
I did ultimately pop it somehow with live uncompressed bass guitar use. Had no trouble keeping up with 98db midbass for hours on end for music playback at pa levels outdoors.
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