I assumed we were talking about woofers.
The paper seems to suggest that distortion will be low with properly chosen drivers. Not difficult to do in a domestic situation. How would they compare to domes at over 110dB?
The paper seems to suggest that distortion will be low with properly chosen drivers. Not difficult to do in a domestic situation. How would they compare to domes at over 110dB?
Hello,
For grins these are plots are from the 6-1/2 inch peerless woofers in sealed enclosures on my bench.
The AP calibrated microphone is just a couple of inches away from the driver dust cap. I was not thrilled with the level of H2 andH3 distortion.
So I disconnected the APx555 analyzer output to the APx power amplifier. With no output from the speaker. the microphone measured only room, analyzer and amplifier fan noise.
There was very little if any difference between the driver H2 and H3 plots with the speaker functioning and the driver plots. Must be time to take the instruments outdoors with the microphone much farther away from the instrument cooling fans.
I will set up a couple of cd/horns and measure them at similar levels and post the plots.
Plots have 1/12 octave smoothing
Thanks DT
For grins these are plots are from the 6-1/2 inch peerless woofers in sealed enclosures on my bench.
The AP calibrated microphone is just a couple of inches away from the driver dust cap. I was not thrilled with the level of H2 andH3 distortion.
So I disconnected the APx555 analyzer output to the APx power amplifier. With no output from the speaker. the microphone measured only room, analyzer and amplifier fan noise.
There was very little if any difference between the driver H2 and H3 plots with the speaker functioning and the driver plots. Must be time to take the instruments outdoors with the microphone much farther away from the instrument cooling fans.
I will set up a couple of cd/horns and measure them at similar levels and post the plots.
Plots have 1/12 octave smoothing
Thanks DT
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We can use the terms potential energy and kinetic energy, or preferably, the terms of electromagnetism. The magnetic property arises from the electric property, necessarily depleting it. Signals are generated from the magnetic property. Without an electric field holding it in restraint, magnetic fields would be completely ungoverned. Any efficient system displays a weak electric field, that is, a weak controlling (damping) force.
The greater the charge (mass), the stronger the electric field. To increase efficiency is to decrease the mass. For a given excitation force, a lower mass conveys higher velocity, higher amplitudes, higher frequency, higher instability, more resonances, more dispersion, higher pressure (voltage, electric tension, stress, strain, density) = higher distortion.
The greater the charge (mass), the stronger the electric field. To increase efficiency is to decrease the mass. For a given excitation force, a lower mass conveys higher velocity, higher amplitudes, higher frequency, higher instability, more resonances, more dispersion, higher pressure (voltage, electric tension, stress, strain, density) = higher distortion.
The only reason there's more distortion is because it plays louder when driven with the same amount of power, or is it because it's designed to go louder and be able to play at realistic audio levels, not softer and distort less?
There's many ways to look at this.
For loudness levels that are similar , one could easily argue the opposite, because drive strength, cone surface area and compliance all are different than the low efficiency drivers, it's not just the weight of the cone. Even more so: some pa woofers have 250 grams of Mmd and still do 30 Hz and 97 dB.
For all things being equal (size, weight, compliance, etc), best you can do for less distortion is have a longer voice coil, more uniform and stronger magnetic field. Weight imho isn't even important that much.
There's many ways to look at this.
For loudness levels that are similar , one could easily argue the opposite, because drive strength, cone surface area and compliance all are different than the low efficiency drivers, it's not just the weight of the cone. Even more so: some pa woofers have 250 grams of Mmd and still do 30 Hz and 97 dB.
For all things being equal (size, weight, compliance, etc), best you can do for less distortion is have a longer voice coil, more uniform and stronger magnetic field. Weight imho isn't even important that much.
Oc its better with higher efficiency. Transducers of today are emarrassingly inefficient. A 90dB/W/M driver is less than 1% efficient. Over 99% is wasted in heat in the voice coil wich gives a whole lot of problems...
I believe the topic was:
Does anyone else think compression drivers sound bad?----a blanket statement. My father once told me the "some people will complain about anything, even if some were give a duffle bag containing a million dollars in $20 dollar bills----THE BAG WAS TOO HEAVY TO CARRY !!! Don't figure out the problem, just complain !!!
I have owned and could justifiably state: dome tweeters, electrostatic, planar, full range, 5', 6", 7", 8" etc , etc. drivers sound bad. I don't think that statement is constructive towards getting better sound for DIY people.
I enjoy the input from electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, material scientists, people in the recording and music business, fellow diy people, music lovers, graphs, charts etc. I know several posters, here, have good experiences with compression drivers, horns, etc. What I DON"T see here is vast, practical, experience of some of the critics of compression drivers.
What I can offer as "NON scientific evidence" that the critics here are wrong, is the opinions of 50+ diverse people who have come over to ACTUALLY LISTEN to the horn system I have built. At last look, the Steve Guttenberg, Youtube video, about my speaker system, just topped 228K views and 1,200+ comments ( 99+% very positive)
None of the people who came over to give this system a listen had a negative comment !!! This includes many club members, musicians, recording engineers, speaker mfg., etc. Indeed, most commented on the dynamics, clarity, imaging, power of delivering a near, live, musical experience inside a room. There were 2 people who ran out of their "sweet spot" chair, because they were startled, another had a panic attack. Even these two people still did not have a negative comment, about the sound.
So, you compression driver critics--please tell this group your experiences and your speaker preferences and why YOUR drivers sound superior !!! I still do not consider myself an expert, just experienced, and always willing to learn something new.
Meet Joe, and his amazing DIY horn speakers - YouTube
Respectfully,
Joe
Does anyone else think compression drivers sound bad?----a blanket statement. My father once told me the "some people will complain about anything, even if some were give a duffle bag containing a million dollars in $20 dollar bills----THE BAG WAS TOO HEAVY TO CARRY !!! Don't figure out the problem, just complain !!!
I have owned and could justifiably state: dome tweeters, electrostatic, planar, full range, 5', 6", 7", 8" etc , etc. drivers sound bad. I don't think that statement is constructive towards getting better sound for DIY people.
I enjoy the input from electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, material scientists, people in the recording and music business, fellow diy people, music lovers, graphs, charts etc. I know several posters, here, have good experiences with compression drivers, horns, etc. What I DON"T see here is vast, practical, experience of some of the critics of compression drivers.
What I can offer as "NON scientific evidence" that the critics here are wrong, is the opinions of 50+ diverse people who have come over to ACTUALLY LISTEN to the horn system I have built. At last look, the Steve Guttenberg, Youtube video, about my speaker system, just topped 228K views and 1,200+ comments ( 99+% very positive)
None of the people who came over to give this system a listen had a negative comment !!! This includes many club members, musicians, recording engineers, speaker mfg., etc. Indeed, most commented on the dynamics, clarity, imaging, power of delivering a near, live, musical experience inside a room. There were 2 people who ran out of their "sweet spot" chair, because they were startled, another had a panic attack. Even these two people still did not have a negative comment, about the sound.
So, you compression driver critics--please tell this group your experiences and your speaker preferences and why YOUR drivers sound superior !!! I still do not consider myself an expert, just experienced, and always willing to learn something new.
Meet Joe, and his amazing DIY horn speakers - YouTube
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe, many thanks for presenting your system here. I love it.
Is there some listening material available online, too? Can't find part two of this video.
What sometimes sound bad are bad recordings. A big hornsystem is able to show all those differences in audio recordings and pressings easily, because its a true high efficiency, high resolution system. I have records (LP) here that sound rather thin, some sound artificial enhanced, some sound clinical clean and some has washed out all those lovely colors in sound like an old picture has. But the best sound very transparent, dynamic and vivid, colorful. Most are a mix of those strengths and shortcomings. I've heard this with no speaker before in such a magnified and true to life dimension. And, expect of magnetostats, I owned and auditioned many different models of dynamic and electrostatic speakers. None was able to deliver the whole bandwith of music in such a natural, dynamic and undistorted way of presentation. But bad designs of hornspeakers may exist, of course. Because this design can't be cheap when done excellent, me too has choosen the DIY route. I don't know if a horn speaker with double Altec's is on the market still. I really think, those high efficiency, high quality designs either cost a fortune or are simply unavailable today (at least, when it comes to using old drivers). More to this, if they are field coil driven, like Joe's system partially is.
Is there some listening material available online, too? Can't find part two of this video.
What sometimes sound bad are bad recordings. A big hornsystem is able to show all those differences in audio recordings and pressings easily, because its a true high efficiency, high resolution system. I have records (LP) here that sound rather thin, some sound artificial enhanced, some sound clinical clean and some has washed out all those lovely colors in sound like an old picture has. But the best sound very transparent, dynamic and vivid, colorful. Most are a mix of those strengths and shortcomings. I've heard this with no speaker before in such a magnified and true to life dimension. And, expect of magnetostats, I owned and auditioned many different models of dynamic and electrostatic speakers. None was able to deliver the whole bandwith of music in such a natural, dynamic and undistorted way of presentation. But bad designs of hornspeakers may exist, of course. Because this design can't be cheap when done excellent, me too has choosen the DIY route. I don't know if a horn speaker with double Altec's is on the market still. I really think, those high efficiency, high quality designs either cost a fortune or are simply unavailable today (at least, when it comes to using old drivers). More to this, if they are field coil driven, like Joe's system partially is.
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Hi, Schmitz77
You are very welcome, and I am glad to share !!! This video was shot on an I-phone. Steve Guttenberg usually does not play music through the speakers he presents in the videos. Part of the problem is copyright, Youtube itself. I hope to have some club members do a demo using properly recorded music when this virus subsides. Even the best recordings I have heard on Youtube can't capture the fine points of most speaker designs. I have been asked many, many, times to put some audio on YouTube but I don't have the skills / equipment necessary. The workshop video usually shows up when you search for the speaker video on YouTube. I still have some improvements to do. There are 4 Lambda variable power supplies ( 0 - 20v ) for the 4 field coil drivers. I would like to reduce the overall system noise a little further. I hear lots of talk about EQ, digital filters of all types. I can tell the people here, from experience, the top DEQX was tried and sounded HORRIBLE !!. I had 5 pairs of mono blocks powering this system. I could have supplied audio to Madison Square Garden !! The flat line on the laptop looked impressive but sounded totally non musical, artificial, edgy, fatiguing. The speaker designer, who installed and swore DEQX was the S**t was happy when the unit was removed !!! If anyone thinks they can add thousands of resistors, capacitors, resistors, op-amps---called digital chips--into a system like this, is delusional. Whatever digital correction the unit can do, you can pay a heavy price in the overall system sound. A simple, high quality, passive, crossover IN MY SYSTEM is the way to go. This speaker system is far to sensitive and revealing to add all those extra electronics, cables, amps, and NOISE !! The only place EQ is used in my system are the subwoofers (from 12hz. to 60hz flat) with a 48 db roll off at 60hz., supplied by a pair of Crown I-Tech 5000HD amps strapped to mono blocks. There is no detectable noise from the subs. I rebuilt and reinforced the entire room so the subs would not wreck the house !!
Joe
You are very welcome, and I am glad to share !!! This video was shot on an I-phone. Steve Guttenberg usually does not play music through the speakers he presents in the videos. Part of the problem is copyright, Youtube itself. I hope to have some club members do a demo using properly recorded music when this virus subsides. Even the best recordings I have heard on Youtube can't capture the fine points of most speaker designs. I have been asked many, many, times to put some audio on YouTube but I don't have the skills / equipment necessary. The workshop video usually shows up when you search for the speaker video on YouTube. I still have some improvements to do. There are 4 Lambda variable power supplies ( 0 - 20v ) for the 4 field coil drivers. I would like to reduce the overall system noise a little further. I hear lots of talk about EQ, digital filters of all types. I can tell the people here, from experience, the top DEQX was tried and sounded HORRIBLE !!. I had 5 pairs of mono blocks powering this system. I could have supplied audio to Madison Square Garden !! The flat line on the laptop looked impressive but sounded totally non musical, artificial, edgy, fatiguing. The speaker designer, who installed and swore DEQX was the S**t was happy when the unit was removed !!! If anyone thinks they can add thousands of resistors, capacitors, resistors, op-amps---called digital chips--into a system like this, is delusional. Whatever digital correction the unit can do, you can pay a heavy price in the overall system sound. A simple, high quality, passive, crossover IN MY SYSTEM is the way to go. This speaker system is far to sensitive and revealing to add all those extra electronics, cables, amps, and NOISE !! The only place EQ is used in my system are the subwoofers (from 12hz. to 60hz flat) with a 48 db roll off at 60hz., supplied by a pair of Crown I-Tech 5000HD amps strapped to mono blocks. There is no detectable noise from the subs. I rebuilt and reinforced the entire room so the subs would not wreck the house !!
Joe
Another thing Joe has figured out is to not try to cover too much frequency with a single horn/driver combo. Sure, setting up a 5 (I think, haven't watched the vid in a while) way system poses challenges - but I wonder how many people who don't like compression drivers heard a system where the driver was tasked to run from the horn's lower limit all the way past super tweeter range?
Love your system and the vids, Joe. Nice stuff!
(I'd sure like a pair of those little ET-703 horns 😉 )
Love your system and the vids, Joe. Nice stuff!
(I'd sure like a pair of those little ET-703 horns 😉 )
A caveat. What I suspect more people know as a system that makes a bad recording sound worse, has nothing to do with high resolution.
Have you noticed that a high resolution system can actually help see through a bad recording, rather than make it sound worse?
Some systems could create a problem with diffraction, response issues, room reflections.
Go Joe,
You are quite the lion tamer.
Your horns are a case of where the exception proves the rule.
Looks like OSHA PPE is required.
Thanks DT
You are quite the lion tamer.
Your horns are a case of where the exception proves the rule.
Looks like OSHA PPE is required.
Thanks DT
Many thanks for sharing, Joe. Great skills you present and great work. I think thats the essence of real high end DIY, although this term has been abused for so long. In this way of DIY, there is so much potential offside the usual business commercial rules, it shows what's truly achievable with lots of passion, powerful financial backing and skill/ knowledge. That's almost such an atom bomb like, powerfull combination. It could beat most of the market gear for sure.
OK, just noticed with some speakers that its possible to understand the concept of music making, mixing and the technical aspects to realise the sold product, the analog LP. For that, you need a speaker with monitor qualities, but a modern monitor cone speaker wouldn't do. I would say some other qualities have to be added, and thats what I meant with a refined, high res speaker system. I think Joe's speakers have reached this point, too. It means much more than to take an Altec Vott and try to use it with some old tube amp. This could have some fascination, but its not that refined. I know of many big speaker users that try to solve those room problems with digital EQ and many of them state that they have reached their goals sufficiently. But as Joe said, you can't eat the cake and have it still. Something has to be sacrificed in putting some dozen IC's and digital gear into the signal chain.
So to me, its better to solve those problems in the analog domain, keeping things simple (but they mostly look only on the surface simple, in reality every parts is complex) and just trying to avoid doing mistakes.
And then, when having a complete audio gear chain without too many technical mistakes, but with added magic and musicality, I think then it would be understandable why even middle class records could be listened and understand with great joy. I don't expect every LP to be a world class recording, its more a joy to me to understand the musicians and their mind behind the music and what they want to express with their music.
If a system could do this and still produce fun listening, thats what I'll call high definition plus additional dynamic. It just makes every music enjoyable, listenable. Despite if it isn't worlds best recording.
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Thanks for posting the video Joe - I've seen it before and it's great. Nice to see you on the thread. 
Can you elaborate on what aspects you feel cause a bad recording to be exposed....I have consistently heard that this trait is abundant amongst a good horn system.
I find that as a system moves toward the ideal rendition, it becomes forgiving. A waveguide or horn system has dynamics able to put you out of your seat, so they are very sensitive to not being right.
Answering your question runs into some grey areas, although I expect most of us have heard a system that we've wanted to turn down. There are some known distortions that manifest in a level dependent sensitivity.
One way I've found is to pursue a system that is low in diffraction and has fine control over directivity. I'm sure you've heard this before. Now, there are many other things that flow from this approach, so it has to be followed to its natural extents in order to mature.
Answering your question runs into some grey areas, although I expect most of us have heard a system that we've wanted to turn down. There are some known distortions that manifest in a level dependent sensitivity.
One way I've found is to pursue a system that is low in diffraction and has fine control over directivity. I'm sure you've heard this before. Now, there are many other things that flow from this approach, so it has to be followed to its natural extents in order to mature.
It sounds like one would want both of these two major aspects you point out. I agree with you that dynamic potential is a big deal. I would point out the dynamic reproduction, inaccurate or accurate, is just another form resolution to be critiqued because the signal is static....so if the dynamic output of the horn system more reflect the signal than it is of higher fidelity.
There is no such thing as an " ideal rendition" in audio. If we would have this, then it would be objectively measurable. But every audio system's sound rendition is highly subjective received by the nature of the subject, the listener.
You can go to a restaurant and ask the cook for the "ideal steak". What will he answer (if he answers at all and don't think this is a joke)? He will say, for every person his own steak. Some like it this way, some the other way. Maybe he will ask the guest right with the order, how he would like his steak being roasted.
Here you can see, there will never be an objective way to measure or define an ideal audio system.
While my system uses only two way speakers, Joe's need five ways to give the perfect sound. And I bet this sound will be highly defined, but tastes very much different at all. So whats better? Maybe just a matter of taste. The same as with every experience in the world. Some like holidays in the snow, some in the heat. So whats the ideal holiday? This question is by nature not answerable.
- A system is static if the output at time t depends only on the input at time t
- A system is dynamic if the output at time t depends on the input at time t as well as the input at other times (i.e. in the past or future)
- I don't think that audio signals are static.
- The dynamic range of an audio signal lies between 40 and 120 dB.
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