Arrghhh ... you got me, Bob ...
!!!Shows you how much attention I pay to things, eh ... 😉 ?
The subwoofers don't matter, a live R'n'R concert is not about deep, deep bass ... 😉
It's the system overall that counts - a small number of normal Morel speakers, actively driven, intelligent DSP to share the load could do 132dB peaks - equivalent to putting your head right next to a drum getting a rim shot ... 😀
There is a lot of nonsense said concerning the sound of amplifiers.
Surely if you like the sound of the amplifier then that's all that matters ?
Distortion does come into things but you can get good distortion as well as bad.
As any rock guitarist will tell you valves driven hard sound great.
Surely if you like the sound of the amplifier then that's all that matters ?
Distortion does come into things but you can get good distortion as well as bad.
As any rock guitarist will tell you valves driven hard sound great.
I'd call my set-up reasonably well-sorted. It is primarily a PA setup: the mains are some reasonably nice 12" two-way cabs, crossed actively to a sub ~60Hz. Touch of eq via a DCX2496, sorted.
Put a 3" full-ranger on a clean couple of hundred watts, turn it up so the amp clips, and then back down slightly. The THD plots don't lie - I found they get really bad harmonic distortion in the 500-1kHz range, which puts harmonics right in our most sensitive hearing range.
Chris
nigel - the "greatness" of sound of overdriven tube guitar amp depends far more on the skill/ touch of the player than any technical aspect of the equipment
That's looking at what the speaker is doing when driven at an extreme physical level - luckily, most music does not consist of high level, continuous sine waves - even the most OTT, modern pop, 😉!! When I say the amp collapses, I'm referring to point where the treble starts going dirty, - partially disappears, turns grey, becomes edgy and gritty - which steadily gets worse the higher the volume is pushed; this is purely an amplifier misbehaviour. It's resolved by improving the amplifier performance - the same speaker then projects very intense, clean, higher frequency musical information - exactly what one gets from live instruments ...
Most systems steadily become more flat, more lifeless, more 'PA' as the volume is increased - the notorious, "hifi" sound emerges ... this is what one has to work at, to counteract - and I've never done it by altering speaker drivers ...
It is operator misbehavior. Technically it is related to second and third order intercept points which is related to supply voltage. If you have an infinitive supply voltage then distortion caused by any kind of gain compression (including harmonic) cannot exist because the amplifier will be absolutely linear.
A typical 50 watt valve amp with 500V plate voltage is far more linear than a typical 50W transistor amp running of a 50V supply.
Most power amps fail into lower speaker's impedances; in particular in the highest frequencies of the audio spectrum. ...The tweeter's range; so Frank is right.
The amp's misbehavior will grossly distort the tweeter, and/or shut down himself (protective emergency mode) or blow up the tweeter(s).
Other amplifiers have poor low bass reproduction; bloated bass below say 30Hz, or no bass @ all. Do you know some of them amps? And do you know the design they are based on? ...Class, and/or tubes or solid states. ...Implementation of all the parts; power transistors' limit and matching and how many of them, transformer(s) VA, total capacitance (microfarads), adequate cubic inch heatsinks, wiring gauge and material, etc.
To get the full live effect of a drum kit with cymbals, you'd better get that amp's act together, or watch out for them drivers inside those loudspeakers.
Quality drivers can handle a lot of clean power (in the thousands of watts on peaks); but they'll complain if fed distortion garbage.
...And smoke down your house!
The amp's misbehavior will grossly distort the tweeter, and/or shut down himself (protective emergency mode) or blow up the tweeter(s).
Other amplifiers have poor low bass reproduction; bloated bass below say 30Hz, or no bass @ all. Do you know some of them amps? And do you know the design they are based on? ...Class, and/or tubes or solid states. ...Implementation of all the parts; power transistors' limit and matching and how many of them, transformer(s) VA, total capacitance (microfarads), adequate cubic inch heatsinks, wiring gauge and material, etc.
To get the full live effect of a drum kit with cymbals, you'd better get that amp's act together, or watch out for them drivers inside those loudspeakers.
Quality drivers can handle a lot of clean power (in the thousands of watts on peaks); but they'll complain if fed distortion garbage.
...And smoke down your house!
Right on, Bob ... I've already mentioned the Bryston amp many times, that I heard at the recent audio show - the first units I've heard, running into conventional sensitivity speakers, that were capable of doing a drum kit properly at realistic volume levels - this was punch you in the side of the head intensity, just like the real thing ...To get the full live effect of a drum kit with cymbals, you'd better get that amp's act together, or watch out for them drivers inside those loudspeakers.
Quality drivers can handle a lot of clean power (in the thousands of watts on peaks); but they'll complain if fed distortion garbage.
...And smoke down your house!
With amplifiers, the problem typically is not voltage, but energy transfer: the power supplies are not capable of storing and delivering energy fast enough, clean enough - the result is badly modulating voltage sag, meaning bad sound. An analogy is a 'powerful' car, with a poorly implemented petrol pump - the driver puts his foot down hard, the engine is there, the fuel is there - but the motor is starving for the right amount of petrol, to perform properly ...
Once you learn to identify the audible effects of this behaviour, you can hear it all the time on hifi systems - that's what impressed me about the Bryston, it seemed to be free of these problems up to impressive SPLs.
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And Bryston amps are made in Canada. 🙂
Plus! They all come with accurate measurements about true power and THD+N levels and S/N ratio.
...Signed by the technical audio technician, and they all come with a life warranty.
{They say 20 years but it's a lie; they'll fix it for free even after 20 years, if ever it fails of course.}
Plus! They all come with accurate measurements about true power and THD+N levels and S/N ratio.
...Signed by the technical audio technician, and they all come with a life warranty.
{They say 20 years but it's a lie; they'll fix it for free even after 20 years, if ever it fails of course.}
Yes, Bob, they seemed to have had an epiphany in recent times - prior to that, they knew how to make extemely solid, reliable amplifiers, but the sound was nothing to get excited about. But the monoblocks I heard did everything right: treble, clarity, low level detail, dynamics - all got ticks ... the end result - extremely convincing sound ...
but do you gusy really listen to realistic level in your rooms for long period of time????
What is a drum realistic level, around 100 db?
I personally do not enjoy high volume in my listening room, not because my speaker cannot do it properly, they can do 100db cleanly, but I do not enjoy it because its too loud, its a bit stressful.
Maybe the cause is my small room as I'm fairly close ot my speakers, around 6 feet, but I dont know, as soon as it gets too loud, it just stresses me and I do not necessarly hear more details, 100 db is just too loud for my taste.
What is a drum realistic level, around 100 db?
I personally do not enjoy high volume in my listening room, not because my speaker cannot do it properly, they can do 100db cleanly, but I do not enjoy it because its too loud, its a bit stressful.
Maybe the cause is my small room as I'm fairly close ot my speakers, around 6 feet, but I dont know, as soon as it gets too loud, it just stresses me and I do not necessarly hear more details, 100 db is just too loud for my taste.
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Did you ever go to a live Rock music concert?
Yeah, it's loud, real loud, and lasts approximately two hours, on average (good concerts with tough heavy metal rockers - endurance from energetic young folks).
@ home some people do, most don't. Some people have huge rooms, the size of a discotheque and they give music parties every single weekend; all night long! ...Dance and all that jazz.
It don't have to be that way, but that's the way of some.
And for the lesser rockers, comes a time when they like to crank it up.
And that's this time frame we're exploring right now.
Are you in, or out? 🙂 ...Real live soundstage, with most approximation of a drum kit in our own homes.
{At home in a small room, the drummer is usually not amplified; no need to. ...I know, I jammed with musicians before.}
Yeah, it's loud, real loud, and lasts approximately two hours, on average (good concerts with tough heavy metal rockers - endurance from energetic young folks).
@ home some people do, most don't. Some people have huge rooms, the size of a discotheque and they give music parties every single weekend; all night long! ...Dance and all that jazz.
It don't have to be that way, but that's the way of some.
And for the lesser rockers, comes a time when they like to crank it up.
And that's this time frame we're exploring right now.
Are you in, or out? 🙂 ...Real live soundstage, with most approximation of a drum kit in our own homes.
{At home in a small room, the drummer is usually not amplified; no need to. ...I know, I jammed with musicians before.}
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It all depends on the music, and the situation - as an example, if I listen to solo piano music, sonatas and such, I would have it at a level which matches that of a live piano in the same room. Modern compressed pop - well down in level ....
The thing is, I don't sit down and listen to music, I use it to fill the space of the house - which means that the volume has to be high enough to do that. Then I wander around doing things, and the sound always has to 'work', wherever I am in the vicinity. So, it has to be convincing from the far end of the house, as well as a couple of feet in front of the speakers - without changing the volume control between those two situations.
Only a fully sorted out system can get the sound right to suit both situations - normal audio just sounds like a PA if you wind up the volume too much; cleanness, lack of distortion is essential - otherwise, the stress you mention comes into the equation ...
The thing is, I don't sit down and listen to music, I use it to fill the space of the house - which means that the volume has to be high enough to do that. Then I wander around doing things, and the sound always has to 'work', wherever I am in the vicinity. So, it has to be convincing from the far end of the house, as well as a couple of feet in front of the speakers - without changing the volume control between those two situations.
Only a fully sorted out system can get the sound right to suit both situations - normal audio just sounds like a PA if you wind up the volume too much; cleanness, lack of distortion is essential - otherwise, the stress you mention comes into the equation ...
Your speakers will start to distort too , dynamic compression and heat induced distortion, last but not least SS AMPS tend to have a sweet spot typically @ 33% of rms rating, distortion turns north above this range , which means your 200watt/ch unit is at its sonic best at 60-80 watts
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Additionally, electrostats that dip below 0.5Ω needs a lot of 'melting' power.
Here's a good place to test them so "I'm the best amp around" pretenders.
And music we listen to say @ 80dB or so on average, if well recorded and from a good quality music medium (albums are out), can have some tremendously demanding brief peaks, with macro dynamics that can reach easily over 100dB and more.
And even with 85dB efficient speakers, and dips into the 2 or 3Ω regions where music could be the most demanding; an amplifier might be required to produce 2,500 watts (on brief instantaneous peaks) in some region of the audio spectrum into that speaker's load impedance and efficiency.
A drum kit is the perfect example.
Here's a good place to test them so "I'm the best amp around" pretenders.
And music we listen to say @ 80dB or so on average, if well recorded and from a good quality music medium (albums are out), can have some tremendously demanding brief peaks, with macro dynamics that can reach easily over 100dB and more.
And even with 85dB efficient speakers, and dips into the 2 or 3Ω regions where music could be the most demanding; an amplifier might be required to produce 2,500 watts (on brief instantaneous peaks) in some region of the audio spectrum into that speaker's load impedance and efficiency.
A drum kit is the perfect example.
What some people probably don't appreciate, is that a system working well at high volume, in one sense, doesn't sound special - it just sounds, well, normal!! This is because the tonalities match that of natural sounds around you, they have the character of the sound you experience in every day life, in natural environments. IOW, it's precisely when it doesn't sound like an audio system, something different and 'special' - that's when it actually is doing something special ...
Most power amps fail into lower speaker's impedances; in particular in the highest frequencies of the audio spectrum. ...The tweeter's range; so Frank is right.
The amp's misbehavior will grossly distort the tweeter, and/or shut down himself (protective emergency mode) or blow up the tweeter(s).
Other amplifiers have poor low bass reproduction; bloated bass below say 30Hz, or no bass @ all. Do you know some of them amps? And do you know the design they are based on? ...Class, and/or tubes or solid states. ...Implementation of all the parts; power transistors' limit and matching and how many of them, transformer(s) VA, total capacitance (microfarads), adequate cubic inch heatsinks, wiring gauge and material, etc.
To get the full live effect of a drum kit with cymbals, you'd better get that amp's act together, or watch out for them drivers inside those loudspeakers.
Quality drivers can handle a lot of clean power (in the thousands of watts on peaks); but they'll complain if fed distortion garbage.
...And smoke down your house!
All "facts" offered on the internet is not necessarily true - you are generalizing as if every amp in the world suffers from these issues - From you experience I take it that you have had rubbish equipment to date.😱 Do you have any idea what is clean power, maybe something that is green, runs on wind or solar energy, what?
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If your system makes a recording of your grandmother sound impressive or special you would like to take her to bed?
I prefer a system that makes my grandmother sound exactly like my grandmother, as she does in real life, then I wont make stupid mistakes of hearing what is not there.
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