That has more to do with the stuff above 200-350 Hz. Below that room dominates.
No general statment of BR vrs TL can be made because execution is so much more important.
dave
Tony and Troels have published large speaker designs (see Troels's DTQWT) but I dont think John K (Zaph) has.
VACS's requirement looks like one for a large floor stander (by large we are talking 12" x 18" x 48" or thereabouts).
Accuton drivers need very very good crossover design. Many very good drivers are more demanding.
For example (and this in only hypothetical) SEAS Nextel line is easier to work with than their Magnesium line. That does not say you can't get very good loudspeakers using Mg drivers it is just that you need to have a more complex crossover to compensate.
In any case unless you have access to all driver data (measured T/S specs, FRD data etc..) and the tools to use this data I would strongly recommend choosing a ready design from Troels, John "Zaph" K, Tony Gee, etc.
It may be 6 months or more before Troels produces the "Jenzen AT with Audio Technology drivers " or Jenzen Accu having Accuton for mid and tweeter and AT 10C77 for bass". Can you wait that long?
Have you seen this PRELUDE
The 10C77 requires only about 55 liters net volume and you could build a hihger SPL version of this speaker using 2 10C77 (or 23I52) per channel mated to a 18H52 and 9900 or
Why not talk to Shinobiwan. He made the LGT
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/93218-lgt-construction-diary.html
Latest DIY Speaker and Amp Project - AudioSmile Forum
Actually I secretly hope commercial manufacturers dont get into TL. This gives us DIYers a bit of an exclusive domain. TL in anycase to some degree is diffcult to mass produce due the extent of carpentry involved.
Hi Navin,
From what I know about commercial speaker manufacturing, I know that you will be able to sleep easy in the knowledge that commercial manufacturers will not spend time and effort to design a TL.
I agree there is an myth that TL speakers are more difficult to mass produce than more basic designs. May the myth continue for all the DIYers who want to experiment in hope of finding the holy grail!
My cabinet maker cuts all the MDF board with all the driver cutouts etc for a pair of TL speakers in basically unasembled kit form for only $A30 more than a similar size BR kit speaker. He will also assemble the box and a use a range of veneers covered in a 2 pack polurethane finish for about $A150 more per box depending on veneer used. I have quotes from "commercial??" speaker manufacturers who have quoted $A1500 more for the same job. May be they know what the market can stand?
My latest top end TL kit speaker design which is easy to build is squarely aimed at a segment of the DIY market. It is for those who have virtually no woodworking experience but can get hold of or buy basic woodworking tools. If they follow the instructions without "experimenting" they will build a top sounding speaker.
There are many levels of DIYers which basically starts with those who have little experience with anything woodwork and even basic soldering let alone crossover design. Then the progression of ability and understanding goes on to the top end of the hobby where there are some wonderful speaker designs of all types including many amplifier designs as well.
However, in this day of more specalization of componentry more detailed understanding and resultant design work is required to optomise the components to get the last drop of sound quality out of the available equipment. It is getting very difficult for those DIYers to experiment unless they have seemingly endless time and money to play with. The design envelope appears to be shrinking by the decade. Forty to fifty years ago there were only a few dozen driver manufacturers with basically similar products so designing a speaker was not ad detailed as is the situation now.
I'm not talking about systems that make a nice noise, but home built systems that can easily rival and exceed the sound quality of the big brands for a fraction of the financial outlay. It is my opinion that is what DIY is all about if you want to really study and are prepared to put in a lot of time and effort, you will be rewarded with a very good top end system that plays REAL music, I'm sure!
As for TL speaker placement it is as with any speaker placement; there is no real fixed and fast solution to this as each listening area in the main are totally different to each other. But with that said, after many years of listening to many types of speakers the TL appears to be much more tolerant to positioning. For whatever reason for the seemingly tolerance of a TL placement it is well known that the midrange is important for imaging, soundstage etc and that doesn't change, in theory nomatter what the design. More black arts about TL design?? And that is not only room size and shape but furnishings and floor coverings that influence sound too. BASICALLY, the sound appears to be more pleasent for a listener if the speakers are placed away from walls and out of corners of a room. Now that palcement can vary from 12" from a wall to a position that sounds best for you. A good speaker system will sound good anywhere, relative to the listening area.
And so on it goes, in persuit of personal perfection and satisfaction that a good job brings.
Tliner.
From what I know about commercial speaker manufacturing, I know that you will be able to sleep easy in the knowledge that commercial manufacturers will not spend time and effort to design a TL.
I agree there is an myth that TL speakers are more difficult to mass produce than more basic designs. May the myth continue for all the DIYers who want to experiment in hope of finding the holy grail!
My cabinet maker cuts all the MDF board with all the driver cutouts etc for a pair of TL speakers in basically unasembled kit form for only $A30 more than a similar size BR kit speaker. He will also assemble the box and a use a range of veneers covered in a 2 pack polurethane finish for about $A150 more per box depending on veneer used. I have quotes from "commercial??" speaker manufacturers who have quoted $A1500 more for the same job. May be they know what the market can stand?
My latest top end TL kit speaker design which is easy to build is squarely aimed at a segment of the DIY market. It is for those who have virtually no woodworking experience but can get hold of or buy basic woodworking tools. If they follow the instructions without "experimenting" they will build a top sounding speaker.
There are many levels of DIYers which basically starts with those who have little experience with anything woodwork and even basic soldering let alone crossover design. Then the progression of ability and understanding goes on to the top end of the hobby where there are some wonderful speaker designs of all types including many amplifier designs as well.
However, in this day of more specalization of componentry more detailed understanding and resultant design work is required to optomise the components to get the last drop of sound quality out of the available equipment. It is getting very difficult for those DIYers to experiment unless they have seemingly endless time and money to play with. The design envelope appears to be shrinking by the decade. Forty to fifty years ago there were only a few dozen driver manufacturers with basically similar products so designing a speaker was not ad detailed as is the situation now.
I'm not talking about systems that make a nice noise, but home built systems that can easily rival and exceed the sound quality of the big brands for a fraction of the financial outlay. It is my opinion that is what DIY is all about if you want to really study and are prepared to put in a lot of time and effort, you will be rewarded with a very good top end system that plays REAL music, I'm sure!
As for TL speaker placement it is as with any speaker placement; there is no real fixed and fast solution to this as each listening area in the main are totally different to each other. But with that said, after many years of listening to many types of speakers the TL appears to be much more tolerant to positioning. For whatever reason for the seemingly tolerance of a TL placement it is well known that the midrange is important for imaging, soundstage etc and that doesn't change, in theory nomatter what the design. More black arts about TL design?? And that is not only room size and shape but furnishings and floor coverings that influence sound too. BASICALLY, the sound appears to be more pleasent for a listener if the speakers are placed away from walls and out of corners of a room. Now that palcement can vary from 12" from a wall to a position that sounds best for you. A good speaker system will sound good anywhere, relative to the listening area.
And so on it goes, in persuit of personal perfection and satisfaction that a good job brings.
Tliner.
As was mentioned before....GR Research Super V
Servo subs.....clean, fast and play extremely low.
Open Baffle, Coax....whats to know? Just google.
Sells them as kits where you do the woodworking, or with unfinished panels that
you do assembly and finish.
I have had audiophiles over that are stunned when they hear them....and mine are only V-1s
Check out reviews from the last couple of RMAFs.....
They are a looker as well.....
Servo subs.....clean, fast and play extremely low.
Open Baffle, Coax....whats to know? Just google.
Sells them as kits where you do the woodworking, or with unfinished panels that
you do assembly and finish.
I have had audiophiles over that are stunned when they hear them....and mine are only V-1s
Check out reviews from the last couple of RMAFs.....
They are a looker as well.....
The Nautilus area half wave TL. Calling them a sealed box with a long tapered chamber is like calling an ML-TL a bass reflex in a tall enclosure... it accurately describes what they look like but ignores the physics of how they work.
dave
dave
Basically he said F you. I felt like that would be his reply because he would assume his time is worth more than YOU could afford. he makes pretty speakers... Anyone with some opamps can do as well sonically. F him. lol
BTW with regards to the orions, no amount of CNC routing in a sealed chamber can eliminate it's cavity resonance. I am of the opinion that that distortion will be present in any of Troel's sealed designs.
Spend a ton on an open baffle, design. Save a couple grand for room treatments.
Tade
To the O.P. I knew it was mentioned earlier about the GR Research Super V, however I believe Danny will also do custom work as well! It certainly can't hurt to drop him and e-mail! I know many that are very happy with his designs and I built his MTM Transmission Line speaker which I'm very happy with. It certainly competes and betters many of the much more expensive speakers I have listened to!
Tliner, I feel you on the T.L. Designs and I really like the controlled bass response. I never get shaken with and unexpected sharp rise in db during dynamic passages, which is nice! The mids are well above average to excellent and this speaker reminds me of and Electostat, although not quite as airy! I would eventualy love to have and open baffle with a huge woofer, but my wife would not approve of it being anywhere!
Tliner, I feel you on the T.L. Designs and I really like the controlled bass response. I never get shaken with and unexpected sharp rise in db during dynamic passages, which is nice! The mids are well above average to excellent and this speaker reminds me of and Electostat, although not quite as airy! I would eventualy love to have and open baffle with a huge woofer, but my wife would not approve of it being anywhere!
I know this does nto apply to tohers here but for those who live in small apartments (and have families) having the speakers 2-3m from the rear walls is not an option hence OB is not always an option. TL to me is the next best thing.
A TL allows the rear wave to be damped and released (instead of building up pressure in the box) but has better transient response than most BRs. Disclaimer: I have only heard 1 TL (a Bud Fried design).
Do you have a website or catalog?
I am in the market for the following:
2 pairs of towers max width 11" (depth and height should be normal)
however the towers would need matching small (wall mounted) rear and (console top) center speakers.
rear speakers would be about 9" x 10" x 10"
The same system would be used for stereo listening as well as surround sound (I wont call it home theater as the rooms are a regular small apartment living rooms dimensions 27'x12' and 16'x16').
Where can I purchase some mounting crossbars like those? Necessary to have them custom made at a CNC shop?
Yep, it is good to know that the driver they use in their XB2 (£2600 rrp each) costs about £300. All one needs then is £50-100 in baltic ply plus some sundries and one is good to go…
Hi CD & ZG,
I have known about PMC and to a lesser extent the Fried range of TL speakers for years. There may be other TL manufacturers of some note as well. As I indicated in previous posts, TL speakers are not mainstream due to their inherent design challenges and resultant cost. PMC speakers have a delightful TL sound. I venture to suggest that their price in the main reflects the development and manufacture costs of the design.
Ha Ha, there is nearly always an exception to every rule! If there was not the odd exception here and there life would be boring wouldn't it?
Have fun,
Tliner.
I have known about PMC and to a lesser extent the Fried range of TL speakers for years. There may be other TL manufacturers of some note as well. As I indicated in previous posts, TL speakers are not mainstream due to their inherent design challenges and resultant cost. PMC speakers have a delightful TL sound. I venture to suggest that their price in the main reflects the development and manufacture costs of the design.
Ha Ha, there is nearly always an exception to every rule! If there was not the odd exception here and there life would be boring wouldn't it?
Have fun,
Tliner.
I agree with Tliner. Compared to the 5-6 niche manufacturers of commercial TLs there are a few thousand manufacturers (of similar size or larger) making bass reflex designs (sealed box designs are not as popular as bass reflex but are definitely more common than TLs).
For example compare the volume JBL sells to what PMC sells.
Here is a link to my TL build Speaker Build L/C/R
The bass output of these speakers is very good. I don't use a sub for music and I can hear a lot of texture in the bass.
The bass output of these speakers is very good. I don't use a sub for music and I can hear a lot of texture in the bass.
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