Yes me to. Im waiting on the Accuton-version!
BUT - im afraid Im not gonna be totally satisfied the his design,
but time will show.
Yes me to. Im waiting on the Accuton-version!
BUT - im afraid Im not gonna be totally satisfied the his design,
but time will show.
The price of a driver doesn't make satisfied sound... I don't believe in high price driver. At this time I am very please to listen Peerless Chinese drivers (830668x2=140€ 830656=20€ DX25=20€) Total~600€ a DIY pair.
They aren't the best driver i have heard but blend them together give a very good result. They simply play music. Hard to believe i could be satisfied with this !
I own a magnesium driver very clean and precise sound but too much precision focuses on the flaws in the record.
This version jensen CA is already a high end loudspeaker. I think the nextel driver will be better. The Accuton version could be also very good. The strength of this design is a TL line have the lowest boxy sound i have heard.
But why is the TL line cabinets so good in terms of "non" boxy sound, and used so little in the high-end market??? There has to be a downside because of this? Pluss vs cons?
The same question with OB, why it is so good and we don't see a lot of design on the market ?
These designs are not so easy to do.
About TL line, i haven't seen a lot of software which can help to design TL properly. I mainly know M.J. King software and you can design a new class of TL line : ML-TL. I think TL are big and it could be a WAF problem.
The second reason i see, is hi-end box are very heavy, the sound of the box is low.
TL is used in a lot of hi end design, see B&W nautilus, AOS speaker etc.
Just a quibble, but can you really call it DIY if it's a kit? Maybe there's different levels of DIY, I don't know.
As there are no openings at the terminus ends of the (original sea shell shaped) Nautilus speakers that are not reallly a TL, just a sealed enclosure with a long tapered rear chamber.
Hi All,
Firstly a well designed T/L speaker exhibits none of the box resonances "the boxy sound" which is generally associated with a speaker of bass reflex design. Secondly there is no really reliable TL design software on the market today. The TL design is still tends to be an art with a lot of science and years of experience by a designer. Thirdly it takes more time to design a TL speaker and may be with a little more woodwork than a bass reflex speaker, and that is money which manufacturers can't afford or won't spend. Don't forget out there in the commercial world, customers in general just don't appreciate a speaker with good tight realistic sounding uncoloured bass. They love the doofie sounding bass.
There is an easy to build top end DIY T/L speaker kit on the market which is successfully being marketed world wide on the internet. You get very detailed building instructions and a matched pair of hand made crossovers on quality PCBs using carefully selected quality components, hardware which includes speaker screws and gold plated driver connectors, speaker terminal block suitable for bi-wiring if desired, internal OFC speaker cable, speaker grill cloth and stuffing. You have to cut the timber or get a cabinet maker to do it for you. And more importantly they are only 90cm (35 1/2") high, 41 cm (16") deep and 23 cm (9") wide. Not the size of a refigerator!
For details refer to Aspen Amplifiers at Aspen Amplifiers and click on VSonic speakers.
A VSonic speaker system built from a kit was demonstrated at the Melbourne Audio Club (Australia) last year and surprisingly recieved a standing ovation from the 120 highly critical members present.
Cheers,
Tliner
Firstly a well designed T/L speaker exhibits none of the box resonances "the boxy sound" which is generally associated with a speaker of bass reflex design. Secondly there is no really reliable TL design software on the market today. The TL design is still tends to be an art with a lot of science and years of experience by a designer. Thirdly it takes more time to design a TL speaker and may be with a little more woodwork than a bass reflex speaker, and that is money which manufacturers can't afford or won't spend. Don't forget out there in the commercial world, customers in general just don't appreciate a speaker with good tight realistic sounding uncoloured bass. They love the doofie sounding bass.
There is an easy to build top end DIY T/L speaker kit on the market which is successfully being marketed world wide on the internet. You get very detailed building instructions and a matched pair of hand made crossovers on quality PCBs using carefully selected quality components, hardware which includes speaker screws and gold plated driver connectors, speaker terminal block suitable for bi-wiring if desired, internal OFC speaker cable, speaker grill cloth and stuffing. You have to cut the timber or get a cabinet maker to do it for you. And more importantly they are only 90cm (35 1/2") high, 41 cm (16") deep and 23 cm (9") wide. Not the size of a refigerator!
For details refer to Aspen Amplifiers at Aspen Amplifiers and click on VSonic speakers.
A VSonic speaker system built from a kit was demonstrated at the Melbourne Audio Club (Australia) last year and surprisingly recieved a standing ovation from the 120 highly critical members present.
Cheers,
Tliner
False. The release of Martin J King & Augspurger Models in fall 1999 (& software) have revolutioinized the development of TLs and opened up the space of TL designs considerably.
dave
Tliner,
Woodworking is not an industrial argument. A TL doesn't take more time or more money to make than a simple box.
People are not deaf, like boomy BR bass ? TL line also gives a better midrange.
If we place the discussion in the high end market as the original discussion : money or not audiophile people are not issues.
Cheers.
Woodworking is not an industrial argument. A TL doesn't take more time or more money to make than a simple box.
People are not deaf, like boomy BR bass ? TL line also gives a better midrange.
If we place the discussion in the high end market as the original discussion : money or not audiophile people are not issues.
Cheers.
Hi Dave,
Martin J Kings and Augspurgers software have closed the gap between black arts and science inj TL speaker design. The use of their software often saves DIYers much time and frustration by getting their designs into the ball park and much stabbing in the dark when designing a TL speaker from scratch. They have done a really good job to try to find a truly scientific formula for the TL design, no doubt about that.
IMHO and that of speaker designers who I know have not found TL software that is 100% accurate todate, unlike software for reflex designs.
Software design for TL speakers is slowly getting there by a lot of hard math work but an accurate cover all design parameter situation algorithm is getting closer. It is well known if you adjust even just one dimension in a TL enclosure of a proven design you are more than likely to experience inferior sound as a result even though software may indicate otherwise. As I said software is getting there, and more importantly so is the understanding of all the particular influences of components (incliding crossovers) have on a TL design.
When commercial manufacturers can reliably design and prototype TL speakers in an acceptable period of time I recon that the TL design will become more prolfic. I think that commercial reality summs up the acceptance of TL design as an econonomic money making design because of the current relatively long design lead times. When a TL speaker is as relatively as easy to design as a reflex design there will be more manufacturers producing TL speakers!
Have fun,
Tliner
Martin J Kings and Augspurgers software have closed the gap between black arts and science inj TL speaker design. The use of their software often saves DIYers much time and frustration by getting their designs into the ball park and much stabbing in the dark when designing a TL speaker from scratch. They have done a really good job to try to find a truly scientific formula for the TL design, no doubt about that.
IMHO and that of speaker designers who I know have not found TL software that is 100% accurate todate, unlike software for reflex designs.
Software design for TL speakers is slowly getting there by a lot of hard math work but an accurate cover all design parameter situation algorithm is getting closer. It is well known if you adjust even just one dimension in a TL enclosure of a proven design you are more than likely to experience inferior sound as a result even though software may indicate otherwise. As I said software is getting there, and more importantly so is the understanding of all the particular influences of components (incliding crossovers) have on a TL design.
When commercial manufacturers can reliably design and prototype TL speakers in an acceptable period of time I recon that the TL design will become more prolfic. I think that commercial reality summs up the acceptance of TL design as an econonomic money making design because of the current relatively long design lead times. When a TL speaker is as relatively as easy to design as a reflex design there will be more manufacturers producing TL speakers!
Have fun,
Tliner
Hi Jerome69,
I totally agree what you say about TL designs in that they have a a better and more realistic midrange too. To an audiophile seeking the "best??" speaker, money and time is not usually a matter for concern, but time to save up for a project often is.
I have seen TL designs and built many top end systems that have less parts in a box than a reflex speakers. To me building a TL is no drama but obtaining reliable driver data is without buying and tresting various drivers until you get the right driver for the job often is.
Cheers, Tliner
I totally agree what you say about TL designs in that they have a a better and more realistic midrange too. To an audiophile seeking the "best??" speaker, money and time is not usually a matter for concern, but time to save up for a project often is.
I have seen TL designs and built many top end systems that have less parts in a box than a reflex speakers. To me building a TL is no drama but obtaining reliable driver data is without buying and tresting various drivers until you get the right driver for the job often is.
Cheers, Tliner
MJK is every bit as accurate as software for BR. Matter of fact the most accurate modeler for a BR is likely MJK. There does need to be somewhere running the software that knows what they are doing. With more design options for a TL, it takes more know-how.
dave
Until such time as manufacturers (or some 3rd party) start puiblishing T/S parameter curves, you'll need to generate the curves yourself and then decide where on the curve to design for.
Or you build a box that is capable of working well as the T/S parameters move around under dynamic conditons. This is one place where a TL has an advantage over BR, they aren't nearly as tightly tuned and when the T/S change with the volume control or the dynamics in the music they care less than a BR which will often be off its tuning more often than it is on.
dave
Dave, You will be happy to know that I've used MJK software for BR designs with success. I agree it ofen takes a lot more know-how to use software particularly for TL designs. One must have an idea of what to expect form a design as the first step before starting along the design road.
After over 50 years of designing TL speakers and making tons of firewood in the process, I have developed my own TL box designs. One of the best sounding TL designs doesn't stack up too well on a lot of software for some unknown reason. But we feel that the woofers, when used in a TL really respond well, producing delightful sound when the data, measurements and software indicate otherwise.
I think that a few more Phd studies on the TL phenomina related to software development could enlighten us all a little more.
Tliner.
After over 50 years of designing TL speakers and making tons of firewood in the process, I have developed my own TL box designs. One of the best sounding TL designs doesn't stack up too well on a lot of software for some unknown reason. But we feel that the woofers, when used in a TL really respond well, producing delightful sound when the data, measurements and software indicate otherwise.
I think that a few more Phd studies on the TL phenomina related to software development could enlighten us all a little more.
Tliner.
Dave,
I measure and develop the slope curves of the drivers I auditon for a box design then make a crossover to suit the situation, the final step in tuning a TL speaker.
But basically once you have sorted out the box design the TL designer has a powerful tuning weapon, the amount and placement of stuffing in the chamber. Making the use of variable stuffing in a TL design I have found that a design does not have to be as precise because of it as a TL speaker is very easily tunable for most listening areas without dramatic redesign.
However, a TL that provides the listener with satisfaction, often requires little or no stuffing which tends me to believe that such a speaker box design is spot on for the listening area. Basically TL speakers can have the perameters/dimensions, components etc tightened just as much as those of antother designs provided the design is ok in the first place. Then if the work is put in on a TL IMHO they sound better than any other speaker design using the same drivers (if they are suitable for a TL in the first place) etc.
Tliner
I measure and develop the slope curves of the drivers I auditon for a box design then make a crossover to suit the situation, the final step in tuning a TL speaker.
But basically once you have sorted out the box design the TL designer has a powerful tuning weapon, the amount and placement of stuffing in the chamber. Making the use of variable stuffing in a TL design I have found that a design does not have to be as precise because of it as a TL speaker is very easily tunable for most listening areas without dramatic redesign.
However, a TL that provides the listener with satisfaction, often requires little or no stuffing which tends me to believe that such a speaker box design is spot on for the listening area. Basically TL speakers can have the perameters/dimensions, components etc tightened just as much as those of antother designs provided the design is ok in the first place. Then if the work is put in on a TL IMHO they sound better than any other speaker design using the same drivers (if they are suitable for a TL in the first place) etc.
Tliner
Tiner,
I'll have to come visit sometime.
The huge range of design possibilities (TL space i call it) that has opened up since fall 1999 is exciting. That and stuffing detail can give a broad range of accomodation.
The ability of stuffing to aid in getting the right alignment with a driver has been exploited heavily in the Frugel-Horn Mk3 project (a TL in (my) the broadest sense of the word). It has been wildly successful so far.
dave
I'll have to come visit sometime.
The huge range of design possibilities (TL space i call it) that has opened up since fall 1999 is exciting. That and stuffing detail can give a broad range of accomodation.
The ability of stuffing to aid in getting the right alignment with a driver has been exploited heavily in the Frugel-Horn Mk3 project (a TL in (my) the broadest sense of the word). It has been wildly successful so far.
dave
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