not suitable ?
gabby:
I have nothing against most materials, in most cases it is more of a
personal feeling I get, once having the material in my hands (I am a very tactile type). I have never had a "good" experience with anything carbon fiber, so I tend to stay away from it, but not for any real or obvious reasons
All must remember if doing your own thing, that there is some mathematics that has to be done and that it is not a trivial thing. Calculating the CoG of the arm tube, the counter-weight, the cartridge, the headshell, etc is not a lot of fun, and errors (even small ones) can have a profound effect. For those not wanting to do the math, or are not willing to make several prototypes and learn from those, I would suggest making a clone of berlinta's (or others') arm (s). At least with berlinta's design and the instructions available here, one can end up with excellent results. And if enough time is taken (with care) the cosmetics are outstanding.
And now a disclaimer: I have never seen or heard any of the Schröder arms, and rely on my comments concerning the sound quality of them based on looking at the design and the care taken in the design. There is no need to get to concerned though as his arms have been well reviewed . I am not sure if any have done a review of a DIY version though, I cannot believe if properly made that it would sound anything but excellent.
gabby:
I have nothing against most materials, in most cases it is more of a
personal feeling I get, once having the material in my hands (I am a very tactile type). I have never had a "good" experience with anything carbon fiber, so I tend to stay away from it, but not for any real or obvious reasons
Finding others (even in the time of the Internet) in one's own community that have similar interests and ideas is hard enough. That opportunity may occur where "Audio Societies" or clubs exist, which usually means in larger cities .
It is an interesting exercise to make a really long arm, as the tracking error is greatly reduced, however other issues that may arise.
Not necessarily, but often the case. If mass increases (and it will for any additional length of material over some previous standard), then the resonant frequency will decrease, but the amplitude could increase. There is a fine line between the resonant frequency and its amplitude. If the frequency is in a suitable range (often between 7 Hz and 12 Hz) the amplitude can be managed by dampening the tonearm. If the resonant frequency gets much lower there may be no effective dampening material available. And if much higher, the dampened frequency may still be audible. Longer arms in and of themselves provide less tracking error, but are not inherently "better" than shorter ones. The longest "practical" arms are usually no longer than 12" (308 mm) from pivot to stylus tip.
Just get some idea of the mass of the arm tube. For 12" tonearms I try to keep the mass around 12 gr-15 gr. Also realize that you will need at least another additional 2" for the arm behind the pivot (so the piece of tube needed is usually around 14"-15"), and the total effective length needs to include the headshell and the overhang of the cartridge. Once you have the basic dimensions worked out, then seek a counterweight mass that will work with the dimension behind the tonearm pivot at the appropriate height. If you need to add mass it is easy enough, but taking mass "out" is tough.
All must remember if doing your own thing, that there is some mathematics that has to be done and that it is not a trivial thing. Calculating the CoG of the arm tube, the counter-weight, the cartridge, the headshell, etc is not a lot of fun, and errors (even small ones) can have a profound effect. For those not wanting to do the math, or are not willing to make several prototypes and learn from those, I would suggest making a clone of berlinta's (or others') arm (s). At least with berlinta's design and the instructions available here, one can end up with excellent results. And if enough time is taken (with care) the cosmetics are outstanding.
And now a disclaimer: I have never seen or heard any of the Schröder arms, and rely on my comments concerning the sound quality of them based on looking at the design and the care taken in the design. There is no need to get to concerned though as his arms have been well reviewed . I am not sure if any have done a review of a DIY version though, I cannot believe if properly made that it would sound anything but excellent.
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Hello
To keep the weight around 15Gr that would already force us to select out certain materials.
I do not plan to use MC cartridge probably I can go up with the weight 20gr or so..
Please do not forget most of the head shell weight 11-15gr or more. I have a Linn head shell and 9Gr already.
To use a cheap plastic head shell to save a few gram we have to think do it worth to decrease the quality of the arm..
With the 3K type carbon fibre I can get the same weight or less like the arrow shaft or the titanium. But not with the graphite golf club shaft.
The 3K carbon on tube is 13mm but 0.5mm wall thickness. (after your advise I did pick)
Another I got 11mm but that 1mm wall thickness
When I'm done with my tests and I feel still worth to do something with the titanium I'll send one to you!
I have 4PC now.
Look at the Black Widow arm that uses similar thin shaft.
Also I think the arrow shaft anodise has something to do with the damping..
Today I purchased some smaller sized magnets..
I do not want to build up the arm at the suspension so I can use a 10x5mm magnet specially when the tube only 6mm.
No stainless steel or any heavy material on the arm even at the pivot.
Greetings Gabor
gabby:I am referring to the actual weight of the arm tube only. I think many of the wooden arm wands may fall into this kind of mass, but check with some of the builders here (I haven't built a Schröder arm as I don't have any machining facilities) or with berlinta himself it hasn't been covered here.
It is way easier to add mass than to take it away, thus I always strive for the lightest arm possible while keeping the structural integrity intact. Weight can be added via the headshell. The only thing with that is (using a 12" arm with a 2" overhang for the tonearm counter-weight) for every gram added to the headshell, 6 must be added to the counter-weight.
If you follow the recipe found in this thread success is pretty much guaranteed.
It is way easier to add mass than to take it away, thus I always strive for the lightest arm possible while keeping the structural integrity intact. Weight can be added via the headshell. The only thing with that is (using a 12" arm with a 2" overhang for the tonearm counter-weight) for every gram added to the headshell, 6 must be added to the counter-weight.
If you follow the recipe found in this thread success is pretty much guaranteed.
Hello Nannok
You right! Don't forget many people combined the wood wand with stainless steel, aluminium or other metal.
I want something simple, similar like your just ad a small aluminum where I can implant the magnet. Probably I can use hard wood there to..
I have a question about the wood head shell.. Will send a PM.
I think I send you a titanium tube but only if you interested (or will tested).. Free.
Still think is a great arm shaft material.
If will work out I try a 15" arm. All 3 pipe arrow shaft, carbon fibre or titanium will be inside the weight limit what was your advise.
How I wrote I'll use two arm on my TT when it be ready.
One short 10" or so and one longer.
I gave up the graphite arm because to heavy and if I clean out inside a with drill bit always crack.
I damaged 4 golf club shaft!
I can not go close or under 20gr with a 15" tube.. The best I get 24gr.
I don't think is a huge different between the graphite and the carbon fibre as a material.
Greetings Gabor
You right! Don't forget many people combined the wood wand with stainless steel, aluminium or other metal.
I want something simple, similar like your just ad a small aluminum where I can implant the magnet. Probably I can use hard wood there to..
I have a question about the wood head shell.. Will send a PM.
I think I send you a titanium tube but only if you interested (or will tested).. Free.
Still think is a great arm shaft material.
If will work out I try a 15" arm. All 3 pipe arrow shaft, carbon fibre or titanium will be inside the weight limit what was your advise.
How I wrote I'll use two arm on my TT when it be ready.
One short 10" or so and one longer.
I gave up the graphite arm because to heavy and if I clean out inside a with drill bit always crack.
I damaged 4 golf club shaft!
I can not go close or under 20gr with a 15" tube.. The best I get 24gr.
I don't think is a huge different between the graphite and the carbon fibre as a material.
Greetings Gabor
Hello
Can you tel me what is the difference between the carbon and graphite please.
The golf club wand I pick is pure graphite not mixture with boron or other material.
Carbon fibre pipe I purchased on Ebay, that is nice and the weight right. One with 1mm wall other 0.5mm wall thickness
I think the carbon fiber use some other material at list the 2mm carbon fibre sheet I have is a mixture of glass fibre and woven carbon fibre.
They told me all solid carbon fibre sheet like 2mm or so is a mixture,
Pipes or smaller (thinner) material pure carbon???🙄
I'll see when it arrives.
I do not worried about the 3K carbon fibre tube I see some SME expensive arm use that material. Picture attached.
That is a very nice material, if pure carbon is OK. If mixture with glass I'm not sure..
That is the reason I tried already 4 golf club shaft because that pure graphite. $4/each used club..
All golf club wind heavy need to take off some weight to get around 20gr with a 15" long tube.
The biggest problem most of the times the hole not at the center, one side the tube thicker 1mm or so. When I drill into tho take out some weight the thin side crack.
I drill slowly and I use step by step thicker drill bit and still I end up with a cracked tube.😕
Greetings gabor
Can you tel me what is the difference between the carbon and graphite please.
The golf club wand I pick is pure graphite not mixture with boron or other material.
Carbon fibre pipe I purchased on Ebay, that is nice and the weight right. One with 1mm wall other 0.5mm wall thickness
I think the carbon fiber use some other material at list the 2mm carbon fibre sheet I have is a mixture of glass fibre and woven carbon fibre.
They told me all solid carbon fibre sheet like 2mm or so is a mixture,
Pipes or smaller (thinner) material pure carbon???🙄
I'll see when it arrives.
I do not worried about the 3K carbon fibre tube I see some SME expensive arm use that material. Picture attached.
That is a very nice material, if pure carbon is OK. If mixture with glass I'm not sure..
That is the reason I tried already 4 golf club shaft because that pure graphite. $4/each used club..
All golf club wind heavy need to take off some weight to get around 20gr with a 15" long tube.
The biggest problem most of the times the hole not at the center, one side the tube thicker 1mm or so. When I drill into tho take out some weight the thin side crack.
I drill slowly and I use step by step thicker drill bit and still I end up with a cracked tube.😕
Greetings gabor
Attachments
High speed cuting & high speed drilling with PCB drill bit in stand.
Regards zeoN_Rider
Berlinta states his views on different arm materials and is clear in pointing out, it is for cartridge matching purposses that different woods are used. Also that not all woods are suitable. He does not appear to be fond of the "sound" of carbon fibre on its own, his arms are, in his words a laminate, presume this means another tube of different material is lining the carbon. He does state a preference for Pertinax over carbon fibre, but I don't see many DIY'ers trying this material? I am in the very early stages of building my own version of Franks arm and plan on using Pretinax. This is a brand name and not available here in the UK. I looked it up and it is Synthetic Resin Bonded Paper (SRBP). Tufnol brand in the UK specifically their "Kite" brand which denotes tubing rather than rod. This is available from RS components online in various sizes and in small order quantities, I think 2m is their min order, so not too much of an expense. Finding supliers willing to sell you DIY type quantities is one of the bigest problems on projects like this.
So, thats my understanding on wands, appologies to Frank if I have miss quoted or missunderstood him.
I have very limited workshop facilities, no lathe or milling machine so finding ways of putting the arm together using off the shelf and easily modified materials/parts is a challange, but it is all part of the fun and adds to the pride of ownership when (if) it comes together successfuly. There is nothing very DIY about sending a set of drawings to a machine shop and then just assembling what they have made, but thats just me, not everyone has the skill, time, or facilities to make up all the parts.
Good luck on the builds and don't forget to post your results.
Ken
So, thats my understanding on wands, appologies to Frank if I have miss quoted or missunderstood him.
I have very limited workshop facilities, no lathe or milling machine so finding ways of putting the arm together using off the shelf and easily modified materials/parts is a challange, but it is all part of the fun and adds to the pride of ownership when (if) it comes together successfuly. There is nothing very DIY about sending a set of drawings to a machine shop and then just assembling what they have made, but thats just me, not everyone has the skill, time, or facilities to make up all the parts.
Good luck on the builds and don't forget to post your results.
Ken
Hi Ken,
Your post hits the nail on the head. Pertinax is a very old name for resin impregnated, - or bonded paper(many different qualities available). In large diameters it's used for small to medium sized astronomical telescopes(DIY too), for it's low expansion coefficient and excellent internal (vibration)damping.
An armwand made out of this stuff alone would have to be large in diameter and fairly thin walled if used by itself. In one of my commercially available arms, the 3-layer armwand is comprised of an outer Pertinax tube, whereas the inner layer is made of Teflon. The "in-between" of such a CLD armwand could be aluminum, CF, titanium, ceramic....Forgive me for not revealing what I use for the central layer, but a highish sound propagation speed is a desirable trait.
And, yes, different woods are used due to the differing density. This allows me to maintain the outer dimensions while offering arms of widely differing eff. mass.
The outer and bore diameter as much as the length of the armwand have a profound influence on the susceptability to vibration, or rather, to how the structure handles mechanical exitation.
And tip for Gabor: Use (partially)cross wound CF tubing(with a wooden plug inside) if you find that your drills crack the wand easily. And the drills need to be SUPER sharp(which they won't stay for long...)
Cheers,
Frank
Your post hits the nail on the head. Pertinax is a very old name for resin impregnated, - or bonded paper(many different qualities available). In large diameters it's used for small to medium sized astronomical telescopes(DIY too), for it's low expansion coefficient and excellent internal (vibration)damping.
An armwand made out of this stuff alone would have to be large in diameter and fairly thin walled if used by itself. In one of my commercially available arms, the 3-layer armwand is comprised of an outer Pertinax tube, whereas the inner layer is made of Teflon. The "in-between" of such a CLD armwand could be aluminum, CF, titanium, ceramic....Forgive me for not revealing what I use for the central layer, but a highish sound propagation speed is a desirable trait.
And, yes, different woods are used due to the differing density. This allows me to maintain the outer dimensions while offering arms of widely differing eff. mass.
The outer and bore diameter as much as the length of the armwand have a profound influence on the susceptability to vibration, or rather, to how the structure handles mechanical exitation.
And tip for Gabor: Use (partially)cross wound CF tubing(with a wooden plug inside) if you find that your drills crack the wand easily. And the drills need to be SUPER sharp(which they won't stay for long...)
Cheers,
Frank
Thank you very much!
I'll buy one more golf club shaft.
Probably U right I have to sharpen my drill bits. Graphite take the edge of very fast, I have German made small hex saw I can cut the graphite with that only, after 2-3 cut I have to replace the blade.
Do you guys think there is a difference sound wise between the pure graphite and carbon fibre which is usually fibre glass mixture.
The guy said where I bought the titanium is soft material, may be the tube but the rest of the material I got for head shell hard like a glass.
Greetings Gabor
I'll buy one more golf club shaft.
Probably U right I have to sharpen my drill bits. Graphite take the edge of very fast, I have German made small hex saw I can cut the graphite with that only, after 2-3 cut I have to replace the blade.
Do you guys think there is a difference sound wise between the pure graphite and carbon fibre which is usually fibre glass mixture.
The guy said where I bought the titanium is soft material, may be the tube but the rest of the material I got for head shell hard like a glass.
Greetings Gabor
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The difference is geographical. At least in the fly fishing rod world!
In Europe the tube is made from Carbon-fibre....
In the USA it is made from Graphite fibre.
They are exactly the same material, but beware it comes in many grades of fibre blanket and also of resin. These qualities certainly effect sound quality, but my own experience has been that This material has no advantages over most other more normally used materials other than being lighter than some.
I would not consider using it other than with a high compliance MM cartridge when low mass is essential in a PUA. If using lower compliance cartridges I would stick with woods as used by Frank in his production arms.
IF I was using CF tubing as an arm beam, I would go for as large an outside diameter thin wall tube as I could use...this will make for greater stiffness, but will also be far more brittle than - say - a golf club shaft. Ask your local fishing rod dealer if he has any broken rod sections....he will probably give you some as a present!
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Hello
Thanks for the information.
I did check already some sport store fishing rod and most of them made in China and fibre glass.
I got some carbon fibre tube (seller told me Japanese material)but still on the way to me.
It was shipped by surface mail from Asia.
One 13mm in diameter and 0.5mm wall. That is ultra light..I got one more because I have a nice Linn head shell it is 9mm that has 1mm wall thickness.
I will see if pure carbon not fibre glass mixture that will be good.
Fibre glass also crack easily, I do not think they use for aviation. These carbon fibre tubes were produced for aviation.
Greetings Gabor
Thanks for the information.
I did check already some sport store fishing rod and most of them made in China and fibre glass.
I got some carbon fibre tube (seller told me Japanese material)but still on the way to me.
It was shipped by surface mail from Asia.
One 13mm in diameter and 0.5mm wall. That is ultra light..I got one more because I have a nice Linn head shell it is 9mm that has 1mm wall thickness.
I will see if pure carbon not fibre glass mixture that will be good.
Fibre glass also crack easily, I do not think they use for aviation. These carbon fibre tubes were produced for aviation.
Greetings Gabor
Hi Frank - Thanks for the additional wand info.
You say a wand made just of Pertinax would have to be of large diameter and fairly thin walled. Is this for rigidity and accoustic purposses?
I was considering Pertinax of OD 9.53mm, ID 6.35mm with an alluminium liner of 1mm wall thickness.
Any comments on that combination?
Regards
Ken
You say a wand made just of Pertinax would have to be of large diameter and fairly thin walled. Is this for rigidity and accoustic purposses?
I was considering Pertinax of OD 9.53mm, ID 6.35mm with an alluminium liner of 1mm wall thickness.
Any comments on that combination?
Regards
Ken
Gabor - As Frank points out this is an old trade name, there are many others for SRBP. See my post #868.
If you Google SRBP you will probably find it in your area. But many grades available which are going to have differing accoustic properties. Don't ask which I recomend because that's where I am at the moment with my build.
Regards
Ken
If you Google SRBP you will probably find it in your area. But many grades available which are going to have differing accoustic properties. Don't ask which I recomend because that's where I am at the moment with my build.
Regards
Ken
Hi Gabor - if you read my post #868 I mention RS components, originally UK outfit but have gone international. See them here for "Tufnol" - "Kite" Brand SRBP:
RS Components International
Cheers
Ken
RS Components International
Cheers
Ken
Hello
These material something like these or not?
I made my speakers faceplate from these.
Picture attached.
When I search on the UK eBay I see something like these. Old PC boards were made of these material, only those didn't had the woven fabric inside
These I have at home I think 12mm thick, need to drill a hole and shaved done if you guys talk about these.
For speaker I know is great but also very heavy to compare to the wood..
Greetings Gabor
These material something like these or not?
I made my speakers faceplate from these.
Picture attached.
When I search on the UK eBay I see something like these. Old PC boards were made of these material, only those didn't had the woven fabric inside
These I have at home I think 12mm thick, need to drill a hole and shaved done if you guys talk about these.
For speaker I know is great but also very heavy to compare to the wood..
Greetings Gabor
Attachments
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I have to say that I lurk on this thread but have not fully read all that has been posted. So I do not know if this is your first of Frank's arm clones. IF it is your first I most certainly would advise you to use a material advised by him.
Only when you have made an arm which is as near original as you can make it and only when that arm is working properly in all respects would I advise you to consider making a second arm beam from alternative materials which fulfils your considered needs more fully. If you make your first arm using other materials and you are unhappy with the arm it is an unfair reflection on the original design.😉
Why do you need to use an ultra low mass arm? Are you using an older MM ultra high compliance cartridge such as an ADC 10E/25/26?
Only when you have made an arm which is as near original as you can make it and only when that arm is working properly in all respects would I advise you to consider making a second arm beam from alternative materials which fulfils your considered needs more fully. If you make your first arm using other materials and you are unhappy with the arm it is an unfair reflection on the original design.😉
Why do you need to use an ultra low mass arm? Are you using an older MM ultra high compliance cartridge such as an ADC 10E/25/26?