Hello
I think the mahogany a bit soft, can easily be damaged when you shaved done to half inch or less.
I try first some solid oak wood like broom stick and in case if I succeed I will buy some hard type exotic wood.
Also very important to pick wood with straight grain otherwise it break easily.
The reason I'm interested on wood I read it has more natural sound than any metal or carbon fibre.
You know that cherry wood tonearm on Epay.. I know that flat and has different suspension but it sound great what I read comments from buyers.
But first think first, I have to put together my TT and the arm suspension after when I'm satisfied (work) try to improve it.
Greetings Gabor
I think the mahogany a bit soft, can easily be damaged when you shaved done to half inch or less.
I try first some solid oak wood like broom stick and in case if I succeed I will buy some hard type exotic wood.
Also very important to pick wood with straight grain otherwise it break easily.
The reason I'm interested on wood I read it has more natural sound than any metal or carbon fibre.
You know that cherry wood tonearm on Epay.. I know that flat and has different suspension but it sound great what I read comments from buyers.
But first think first, I have to put together my TT and the arm suspension after when I'm satisfied (work) try to improve it.
Greetings Gabor
A wooden rod in my opinion it is not necessary to drill the entire length, just on pickup side cca 10mm and the bottom make a channel for dipping wire.
Just my idea, easier- simpler.
In my case I flled carbon tube with expanding foam for sealing in construction work.
Regards zeoN_Rider
Just my idea, easier- simpler.
In my case I flled carbon tube with expanding foam for sealing in construction work.
Regards zeoN_Rider
Hi, i'm new to te discussion, does anyone have compared a diy schroeder tonearm with a well tempered???
Gabo,
What do you intend on doing with the tonearm? Mahogany is one of the better woods for tone. It was Heir Schroeder that recommended it on another forum.....along with other woods. He also recommended many other types of materials for tonearm construction. I suggest you not rule something out until you try it. I soaked my tonearm in several different types of oil / solutions after it was turned down to 1/2", plenty strong enough for a tonearm. Don't use it as a pry bar.
Ron
What do you intend on doing with the tonearm? Mahogany is one of the better woods for tone. It was Heir Schroeder that recommended it on another forum.....along with other woods. He also recommended many other types of materials for tonearm construction. I suggest you not rule something out until you try it. I soaked my tonearm in several different types of oil / solutions after it was turned down to 1/2", plenty strong enough for a tonearm. Don't use it as a pry bar.
Ron
Hi again,
I can only second what Ron said. Two little caveats: Try to find Honduras Mahagony, - vastly superior to most other types(higher density, better internal damping, smaller "pores"). Still not my favorite ;-)
You should not choose the wood(or any other material) for "tone", but the lack of "tone".
I still don't understand why an armwand is supposed to withstand extreme bending forces. Particularly on a unipivot or string bearing which inherently "gives"...
Cheers,
Frank (Schröder)
P.S.:http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base
/African_Versus_Honduras_Mahogany.html
Scroll to the last comment...
Quote from a wood supplier: "MOVEMENT: Honduras Mahogany is extremely stable with very little, if any, dimensional change."
I can only second what Ron said. Two little caveats: Try to find Honduras Mahagony, - vastly superior to most other types(higher density, better internal damping, smaller "pores"). Still not my favorite ;-)
You should not choose the wood(or any other material) for "tone", but the lack of "tone".
I still don't understand why an armwand is supposed to withstand extreme bending forces. Particularly on a unipivot or string bearing which inherently "gives"...
Cheers,
Frank (Schröder)
P.S.:http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base
/African_Versus_Honduras_Mahogany.html
Scroll to the last comment...
Quote from a wood supplier: "MOVEMENT: Honduras Mahogany is extremely stable with very little, if any, dimensional change."
Hello
OK now is clear, at first you wrote mahogany only. Some of them so soft like pine.
I had last sommer 4 pc some expensive table legs. I used them as a speaker stand but after I trow them out. They were way to soft.
I needed to pay speacial att. when I screw those together because the screw run way over the mark...
That is why I wrote I chose some exotic hard wood. I will study which is the best.
Any way thanks for the warning.
Imagine if I use my drill bit which is almost 5mm, after I save the wood done to 10mm or so that is not so strong!
Again what I wrote and read the wood tonearm sounded more natural com pare to metal or carbon fibre arms.
That is other peoples opinion. I didn't tested yet. I will start with metal like aluminum, titanium and carbon fibre also, I think about grapfite to. That was a golf club wand.
A bit heavy (28-29Gr a 16" piece) but look nice, I will test it.
Greetings Gabor
OK now is clear, at first you wrote mahogany only. Some of them so soft like pine.
I had last sommer 4 pc some expensive table legs. I used them as a speaker stand but after I trow them out. They were way to soft.
I needed to pay speacial att. when I screw those together because the screw run way over the mark...
That is why I wrote I chose some exotic hard wood. I will study which is the best.
Any way thanks for the warning.
Imagine if I use my drill bit which is almost 5mm, after I save the wood done to 10mm or so that is not so strong!
Again what I wrote and read the wood tonearm sounded more natural com pare to metal or carbon fibre arms.
That is other peoples opinion. I didn't tested yet. I will start with metal like aluminum, titanium and carbon fibre also, I think about grapfite to. That was a golf club wand.
A bit heavy (28-29Gr a 16" piece) but look nice, I will test it.
Greetings Gabor
Heir Schröder,
Thank you for watching over this thread, we are honored.
Sorry about the extra "e". 😉
I'm glad I remembered correctly what you said about mahogany for tonearm use. Thanks for backing me up. Your $5 is in the mail. 😉
Gaborbela,
Any material that is light / stiff / dampened would work well for this tonearm, don't give up on different woods. Exotic =$$$
Thank you for watching over this thread, we are honored.
Sorry about the extra "e". 😉
I'm glad I remembered correctly what you said about mahogany for tonearm use. Thanks for backing me up. Your $5 is in the mail. 😉
Gaborbela,
Any material that is light / stiff / dampened would work well for this tonearm, don't give up on different woods. Exotic =$$$
Gaborbela,
Any material that is light / stiff / dampened would work well for this tonearm, don't give up on different woods. Exotic =$$$[/QUOTE]
Hello
Thank you very much!
Exotic or $$$ not always mean is good for these purpose😀 but I get the first part of the sentence..
Greetings Gabor
Any material that is light / stiff / dampened would work well for this tonearm, don't give up on different woods. Exotic =$$$[/QUOTE]
Hello
Thank you very much!
Exotic or $$$ not always mean is good for these purpose😀 but I get the first part of the sentence..
Greetings Gabor
Be careful about selecting Honduras mahogany. It can range from soft and punky like poplar to firm and dense - close to Cuban or Santo Domingan mahogany.
John
John
Thanks
Until now I only had very soft mahogany.
That is why I was a bit sceptical when someone offered to me one of the best solution.
What about rose wood?
I know a company who produce tonearms from rose wood.
Any way is not urgent to me. First I'll test metal and carbon fibre after I think about.
The truth is I would like 2 tonearm on my deck one min. 10" another longer. Perhaps I will use two different type of material for the two arm wand.
Greetings Gabor
Until now I only had very soft mahogany.
That is why I was a bit sceptical when someone offered to me one of the best solution.
What about rose wood?
I know a company who produce tonearms from rose wood.
Any way is not urgent to me. First I'll test metal and carbon fibre after I think about.
The truth is I would like 2 tonearm on my deck one min. 10" another longer. Perhaps I will use two different type of material for the two arm wand.
Greetings Gabor
Recently i compared a thin walled alu tube to an even thinner walled carbon fibre (arrow) tube using the knife edge bearing from an old SME3012. Both tubes undamped and obviously with very different mass. Signet mm cart with sufficient compliance to benefit from a lighter arm mass. Result: carbon fibre tube sounded really awful compared to alu in any possible way. Not sure if it's the lack of damping. Of course the knife edge bearing places different requirements towards the tube material.
Thank you very much!
I'll plan to test these 3K type of carbon fibre. Very stiff and light weight.
Also I'll test graphite tube which from golf club shaft. I don't know the difference between the carbon or graphite material.
One think is sure many expensive tonearm built from carbon fibre. Many of SME still in production today.
Very valuable your info!
Thank one more time.
Greetings
I'll plan to test these 3K type of carbon fibre. Very stiff and light weight.
Also I'll test graphite tube which from golf club shaft. I don't know the difference between the carbon or graphite material.
One think is sure many expensive tonearm built from carbon fibre. Many of SME still in production today.
Very valuable your info!
Thank one more time.
Greetings
Attachments
Absolutely. But some have a tapered shape and others use thicker walled tubes. And probably all utilise some sort of damping.
Also keep in mind that many carbon fiber golf shafts have tips that are reinforced with boron.
John
John
Yes both of you right.
I already purchased these tubes so at least I test them.
Do you think a 16" long graphite wand which is 29Gr is heavy for MM type stylus?
Pure graphite no boron in it.
Thank you
Greetings gabor
I already purchased these tubes so at least I test them.
Do you think a 16" long graphite wand which is 29Gr is heavy for MM type stylus?
Pure graphite no boron in it.
Thank you
Greetings gabor
extreme bending forces....
all:
I know years ago The Absolute Sound magazine (and I'm sure Stereophile as well) suggested Frank's approach: choose as neural as possible everything and do not look at additional items to "fix" the sound of things. In truth, I completely agree, but in reality it may be something altogether different. Also consider that from the box, many new components are "voiced" using a et of components based on the maker's references or available reference system. This is one reason why I think that reviews are something one ought to look into regarding equipment, and why knowing what system/systems have been used by the manufacturer to voice or use as a reference.
I believe this has come from the gimbal bearing types. I use aluminium (75ksi strength or better) arrow shafts, mainly because they suit my needs, are neutral sounding (hit it with a finger nail and a nice "thud" sound is made) and are readily available at what I think to be extremely low cost. And remember my 219 tonearm was designed to a very low cost, to allow folks who cannot afford a respectable tonearm an opportunity to consider buying the materials and make one on their kitchen table in an afternoon or so. The 219 is really just a refinement of the Altmann arm.
gabby and any considering carbon fiber tonearm shafts (or wands or whatever any might call them): If I was to make a super long arm (24" or longer), I might consider carbon fiber of some sort, but would provide for some sort of mechanical dampening of the wand via Balsa wood or long wool fiber or perhaps a foam of some sort. I believe that if a tonearm is designed "properly", an arm wand should require no or minimal added material for dampening. And the need for anti-skating should be minimal. This also holds true for understanding (at a somewhat succinct level) the effects of the Center of Mass (CoG) and the behaviour of the arm. berlinta (Mr. Schroeder himself) has proven his ability based on the very high level of performance and success in the marketplace.
berlinta:Obviously you have access to good machining capabilities. I do not. So I use whatever I can as from off-the-shelf items that will allow me to have good performance at a low cost. In the design and making of your tonearms, cost is less of a concern. I must applaud you and give thanks to you and others (an example such as Nelson Pass) that have continued to provide your expertise and insights into clones or DIY versions of your products.
all:
Or follow along as Mr. Altmann suggests, a tone or resonant frequency cannot be completely eliminated, so "design" around it. Consider his "Mother or Tone" site. There are a few other websites that promote the use of tone woods in the making of tonearms, turntables, loudspeakers, and audio racks. Yes it can have a cumulative effect. Until we all adopt wooden tonearms, equipment racks, turntables, etc, then we all speculate the total effects.
I know years ago The Absolute Sound magazine (and I'm sure Stereophile as well) suggested Frank's approach: choose as neural as possible everything and do not look at additional items to "fix" the sound of things. In truth, I completely agree, but in reality it may be something altogether different. Also consider that from the box, many new components are "voiced" using a et of components based on the maker's references or available reference system. This is one reason why I think that reviews are something one ought to look into regarding equipment, and why knowing what system/systems have been used by the manufacturer to voice or use as a reference.
I believe this has come from the gimbal bearing types. I use aluminium (75ksi strength or better) arrow shafts, mainly because they suit my needs, are neutral sounding (hit it with a finger nail and a nice "thud" sound is made) and are readily available at what I think to be extremely low cost. And remember my 219 tonearm was designed to a very low cost, to allow folks who cannot afford a respectable tonearm an opportunity to consider buying the materials and make one on their kitchen table in an afternoon or so. The 219 is really just a refinement of the Altmann arm.
gabby and any considering carbon fiber tonearm shafts (or wands or whatever any might call them): If I was to make a super long arm (24" or longer), I might consider carbon fiber of some sort, but would provide for some sort of mechanical dampening of the wand via Balsa wood or long wool fiber or perhaps a foam of some sort. I believe that if a tonearm is designed "properly", an arm wand should require no or minimal added material for dampening. And the need for anti-skating should be minimal. This also holds true for understanding (at a somewhat succinct level) the effects of the Center of Mass (CoG) and the behaviour of the arm. berlinta (Mr. Schroeder himself) has proven his ability based on the very high level of performance and success in the marketplace.
berlinta:Obviously you have access to good machining capabilities. I do not. So I use whatever I can as from off-the-shelf items that will allow me to have good performance at a low cost. In the design and making of your tonearms, cost is less of a concern. I must applaud you and give thanks to you and others (an example such as Nelson Pass) that have continued to provide your expertise and insights into clones or DIY versions of your products.
Hello Nannok
I tested the arrow shaft how you wrote and you right! Even the graphite golf club shaft since to me resonate worst than the arrow shaft.
Now the "pure" titanium at least as good if not better than the arrow shaft,
2PC only cost $6.50 (22" each).
I wish you live here nearby because you could tested to.
Also I have a aluminium alloy golf club shaft, that is very stiff, resonate badly and if I bend it it will jump back.
I don't know what type of aluminum on the picture the ticker titanium coated piece.
The 3K type carbon fibre didn't arrived yet so I can say nothing about.
One think is sure how you wrote I want to test a long arm around 15" or so.
If these suspension not the best for long arm I try something similar like yours.
Also I tested the oak wood broom stick and resonate badly, of course that solid not a pipe. I hold one end and drop it on the concrete the other end from 2" or so and I can feel it.
Of course longer the tube resonate worst.
The titanium ultra light and stiff enough for these purpose. 6mm tube with 04mm wall thickness.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160737999888
I purchased from here, also I purchased several other type for head shell etc.
Even if I use some dumping material for the titanium because it is thin pipe will remain light.😀
Greetings Gabor
I tested the arrow shaft how you wrote and you right! Even the graphite golf club shaft since to me resonate worst than the arrow shaft.
Now the "pure" titanium at least as good if not better than the arrow shaft,
2PC only cost $6.50 (22" each).
I wish you live here nearby because you could tested to.
Also I have a aluminium alloy golf club shaft, that is very stiff, resonate badly and if I bend it it will jump back.
I don't know what type of aluminum on the picture the ticker titanium coated piece.
The 3K type carbon fibre didn't arrived yet so I can say nothing about.
One think is sure how you wrote I want to test a long arm around 15" or so.
If these suspension not the best for long arm I try something similar like yours.
Also I tested the oak wood broom stick and resonate badly, of course that solid not a pipe. I hold one end and drop it on the concrete the other end from 2" or so and I can feel it.
Of course longer the tube resonate worst.
The titanium ultra light and stiff enough for these purpose. 6mm tube with 04mm wall thickness.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160737999888
I purchased from here, also I purchased several other type for head shell etc.
Even if I use some dumping material for the titanium because it is thin pipe will remain light.😀
Greetings Gabor
Attachments
In my project I used carbon fishing rod. Second part of 3. First is too thin.
Regards zeoN_Rider
Regards zeoN_Rider
aluminium arrow shafts and things...
guys:
Remember, I am not claiming "ultimate performance" using the aluminum arrow shafts, but if it was good enough for the Naim ARO tonearm, probably good enough for me. And at least in Canada and the US as close as the local Canadian Tire or Walmart, or local archery range/supplier.
Regarding the use of titanium, I just have never had a local supplier, and I prefer to see/touch/feel things before I do anything. I know the aluminum works. So if it ain't broke, why fix it?
I do think there are sonic benefits to using wood available, I just don't have the means to turn the material down and the time to experiment with shapes. If I was to try using a wood, I think my first choice to try would be good old hard, straight grained Canadian Maple.
We must all recognize that the material choice is part of the equation. The design should be a good one to begin with. A poor design implemented brilliantly will not be improved by material choices, however a good design implemented less than brilliantly will be improved by better implementation and materials. So where does one begin? Personally I'd suggest the later, because it allows for optimization of the tonearm, while the former doesn't without introducing too many variables to isolate.
gabby:If you follow along in this thread, really consider berlinta's comments (re-read the complete thread if necessary). As he is the designer of the tonearm in question his insights are great and carry much weight. One thing I learned relatively early on in my life is that as much as one may learn while pursuing a hobby (in a complete lifetime) it is nothing compared to one learns in a single year doing the same thing full-time.
guys:
Remember, I am not claiming "ultimate performance" using the aluminum arrow shafts, but if it was good enough for the Naim ARO tonearm, probably good enough for me. And at least in Canada and the US as close as the local Canadian Tire or Walmart, or local archery range/supplier.
Regarding the use of titanium, I just have never had a local supplier, and I prefer to see/touch/feel things before I do anything. I know the aluminum works. So if it ain't broke, why fix it?
I do think there are sonic benefits to using wood available, I just don't have the means to turn the material down and the time to experiment with shapes. If I was to try using a wood, I think my first choice to try would be good old hard, straight grained Canadian Maple.
We must all recognize that the material choice is part of the equation. The design should be a good one to begin with. A poor design implemented brilliantly will not be improved by material choices, however a good design implemented less than brilliantly will be improved by better implementation and materials. So where does one begin? Personally I'd suggest the later, because it allows for optimization of the tonearm, while the former doesn't without introducing too many variables to isolate.
gabby:If you follow along in this thread, really consider berlinta's comments (re-read the complete thread if necessary). As he is the designer of the tonearm in question his insights are great and carry much weight. One thing I learned relatively early on in my life is that as much as one may learn while pursuing a hobby (in a complete lifetime) it is nothing compared to one learns in a single year doing the same thing full-time.