I humbly submit that the sensory boundaries of musical pleasure are wider than Mr Wiggins can measure with his gear. What of the smell of hot phenolic? And (sorry ladies) but am I alone in seeing something bosom- like in a big bouncing rubber ringe'd pair of woofers? The glow of the tubes and indeed the background hum of a magnavox console warmed my infancy. So who will deny the conosseuer his satiny oiled teak, his rare polished metals?
I'm looking at this chart and have a couple of questions.
If I'm not mistaken, the levels of the tweeter and woofer weren't merged, so that the frequency response may actually look a great deal flatter, than what it looks like in the picture. Also, it "seems" that the overall frequency response has a BBC dip in it. This may be what the designer intended and could provide a clue as to why this speaker is liked by some. If that's the case, then it may be possible to use tone controls or an equalizer to create the same "sound" in other speakers.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I humbly submit that he can not only measure anything you can hear, but just about everything you can't as well. Dan's batting average is legendary.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Exposures are good. Only thing is the old ones sound a little like the trebble is rolled off to me though.- new ones are good.
The ultimatums were the units on demo at the hifiwigwam show, and I beleve the chap has them for sale at the mo too.
Imo, the big kudos speakers are better, and Im told measure flat too.
I truely believe that evil comes first and foremost stupidity will always be recognised as being benign in nature>>
Remember Lloyd Morgan's Canon - "Don't atribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"...
SY's statement that PRAT comes from the musicians is of course true (though maybe not the only factor) and can actually be proved. It's known in the trade that a rhythm section of piano, bass and drums swings when the bass plays slightly ahead of the drums and the drums slightly ahead of the piano. Try out for instance Cedar Walton with Billy Higgins and Sam Jones. I once proved this on a computer to a guy by asking him to advance the bass slightly when quantising a piece. Sure enough it suddenly started to swing. He was impressed!
Andy
Remember Lloyd Morgan's Canon - "Don't atribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"...
SY's statement that PRAT comes from the musicians is of course true (though maybe not the only factor) and can actually be proved. It's known in the trade that a rhythm section of piano, bass and drums swings when the bass plays slightly ahead of the drums and the drums slightly ahead of the piano. Try out for instance Cedar Walton with Billy Higgins and Sam Jones. I once proved this on a computer to a guy by asking him to advance the bass slightly when quantising a piece. Sure enough it suddenly started to swing. He was impressed!
Andy
Because the PA involves human ears in the feedback loop. 1000s of large and small adjustments are made by the engineers and the musicians all thru sound check and all thru the concert. Same is true when the "PA" is only a concert hall. Musicians adjust by ear to the acoustics.
I believe this is one reason that playback is difficult. In another set of acoustics, the same performance can sound rather odd.
Pano: A difference of perspective, you being a large-venue guy; when I see Matt the Electrician or Lee Barber or Robert Ellis, they're their own sound guys. They may look at one of their friends or at me and ask, "Howzit sound?" then tweak a knob, invariably volume. OK, let's play!
The music always kicks *** rhythmically, though. Toe tappin', body swayin', arm wavin'. And they use some boss bad PA systems.
The music always kicks *** rhythmically, though. Toe tappin', body swayin', arm wavin'. And they use some boss bad PA systems.
Sure, but Matt, Lee or Robert can hear what's going on in the room. Tho the PA might not be at its best, the musicians are still reacting to the sound in the room. Unless they wear earplugs.
Record one of these events and play it back in another room. It will may still be toe tapping, but probably not nearly as much. And play it back thru different speakers, amps, whateverz in that same room and the rhythm can have a different feel. It may be subtle, but we are talking subtle effects here, right?
Record one of these events and play it back in another room. It will may still be toe tapping, but probably not nearly as much. And play it back thru different speakers, amps, whateverz in that same room and the rhythm can have a different feel. It may be subtle, but we are talking subtle effects here, right?
I never understood PRAT as far as speakers and electronics having it or not. I must be a DIY speaker genius because every single pair of DIY speakers has had me toe tapping at one time or another. Seems to me PRAT is another one of those ghosts we all search for in our heads.
Rob🙂
Rob🙂
I was responding to Andy's comment, "In my case, as I have said, PRAT comes from the amplification."
OK. But if the amp effects tonal balance (some say it does not) will amp tonal balance effect the PRAT?
I think the speakers would have a much, much larger influence, tho.
I think the speakers would have a much, much larger influence, tho.
Assuming that the bass line has the lowest fundamental frequencies, then what andyjevans is saying about advancing the bass line fits in with subjective listening to ported vs non-ported speakers. With a port, the group delay shoots up more near to the turnover point - this increasing delay for the bass line would tend to reduce the perceived 'swing'. Subjectively, I prefer IB-type bass to ported - even though its less extended.
>>> I must be a DIY speaker genius because every single pair of DIY speakers has had me toe tapping at one time or another. Seems to me PRAT is another one of those ghosts we all search for in our heads.
Perhaps so.
I had a wonderful time listening to music this morning before the kids woke... love my current DIY speakers (essentially a three way but using a full range driver for most of the music)... that is until i build another pair... which i do often. sometimes the speakers help you find your PRAT better than others. Simon and Garfunkel had me in tears. What a beautiful sound they make... and the lyrics can really choke me up sometimes.
I do believe it has much to do with the bass and the mids... and the treble. I found myself enjoying so much of the music from top to bottom. It's a balance that needs to be found. I do believe when the woofer, mid and tweeter are not seamlessly blended PRAT goes out the window. This could be why so many full range driver fans enjoy many inexpensive drivers. I tend to agree with what they hear.
Zilla
Perhaps so.
I had a wonderful time listening to music this morning before the kids woke... love my current DIY speakers (essentially a three way but using a full range driver for most of the music)... that is until i build another pair... which i do often. sometimes the speakers help you find your PRAT better than others. Simon and Garfunkel had me in tears. What a beautiful sound they make... and the lyrics can really choke me up sometimes.
I do believe it has much to do with the bass and the mids... and the treble. I found myself enjoying so much of the music from top to bottom. It's a balance that needs to be found. I do believe when the woofer, mid and tweeter are not seamlessly blended PRAT goes out the window. This could be why so many full range driver fans enjoy many inexpensive drivers. I tend to agree with what they hear.
Zilla
Interesting new products in this respect are the P2C cones.
http://www.p2ccone.de/
They measure quite similar as other highly-damped plastics, but sound very different. As cultivated, but not as boring. The Blumenhofer Fun 17 with Leben electronics is the most musical playback chain I have heard so far, the electronics had its share, for sure, but the paper cone Blumenhofers didn't come close in my opinion.
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