Dantheman
PRAT stands for Pace rhythm and timing and is one of the factors in bringing a strong emotional but sustained enjoyable response to music. The other is harmonic textures and microdynamics that help vocalists provoke an emotion by the way they use their voices.
I dont think the producers have anything to do with it, as almost any cd of any genre or quality will express emotion when played on a musical sounding system.
The NEAT Petite needs no sub woofers no extra whistles or bells, just a straightforward two way design in a tiny box with a bass port! I might pull it open to have a look at the crossover.
PRAT stands for Pace rhythm and timing and is one of the factors in bringing a strong emotional but sustained enjoyable response to music. The other is harmonic textures and microdynamics that help vocalists provoke an emotion by the way they use their voices.
I dont think the producers have anything to do with it, as almost any cd of any genre or quality will express emotion when played on a musical sounding system.
The NEAT Petite needs no sub woofers no extra whistles or bells, just a straightforward two way design in a tiny box with a bass port! I might pull it open to have a look at the crossover.
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>>> Perhaps you might find some good ideas here.
>>> Endorphine from Kingston Kitchen
>>> nirvana
I completely enjoyed both of those sites. Thanks Moray!
Zilla
>>> Endorphine from Kingston Kitchen
>>> nirvana
I completely enjoyed both of those sites. Thanks Moray!
Zilla
I thoroughly enjoy Mr. Lampizator's direct and blunt approach. He's pretty funny too. I too happen to agree with most of his thoughts.
Oh, I know what PRAT stands for, I just don't see it as an audio thing nowadays. It's a music thing. Seems you agree: "PRAT stands for Pace rhythm and timing and is one of the factors in bringing a strong emotional but sustained enjoyable response to music."
I really haven't heard a modern stereo that got it wrong--only analog stuff. I'm not even sure it's possible for digital stuff to get it wrong. That's why I found it odd that analogphiles discuss it as the creme de la creme. Just go digital if that's what you are looking for. Don't get me wrong, I love my analog gear, and I'm attached to it. I just don't think it's b/c it's better in the pace, rhythm, and timing part. I'd actually say it's worse in that respect. There's just something to it and I'm too young for it to be nostalgia I think. I did grow up with cassettes, but not records. I prefer records. Maybe it's resolution, maybe it's compression, I just don't know. Truthfully I think it's partly the distortions of the primitive tech combined with better resolution. When records sound too clean, I enjoy them less. OK, I better hide now. I probably just made someone angry. None the less, when people talk prat, it seems there is a TT involved(often rim drive), tubes(often PP), and horns. Since you are talking PRAT, I'd look there.
Dan
I really haven't heard a modern stereo that got it wrong--only analog stuff. I'm not even sure it's possible for digital stuff to get it wrong. That's why I found it odd that analogphiles discuss it as the creme de la creme. Just go digital if that's what you are looking for. Don't get me wrong, I love my analog gear, and I'm attached to it. I just don't think it's b/c it's better in the pace, rhythm, and timing part. I'd actually say it's worse in that respect. There's just something to it and I'm too young for it to be nostalgia I think. I did grow up with cassettes, but not records. I prefer records. Maybe it's resolution, maybe it's compression, I just don't know. Truthfully I think it's partly the distortions of the primitive tech combined with better resolution. When records sound too clean, I enjoy them less. OK, I better hide now. I probably just made someone angry. None the less, when people talk prat, it seems there is a TT involved(often rim drive), tubes(often PP), and horns. Since you are talking PRAT, I'd look there.
Dan
Dan when you say you have not heard a stereo thats got it wrong, then with all due respect you have still not quite understood the meaning of musicality. To my ears it is so obvious now, yet over the last 5-8 years or so I had been oblivious to it. Once you know it you will appreciate what i mean. It is simple to demonstrate and has nothing to do with format IMO.
Why dont you read some of the reviews concerning Neat speakers then ask yourself why are they making such a big fuss over the musicality of it, whereas the same reviewers might not be regarding most other speakers. Why is the Wilson Watt puppies often described as cold and sterile and recently reviewers have started to claim that the WP8 has improved in that area over its predecessors. Most stereo has not got it right I am afraid to say most have got it wrong, its just that you are not appreciating it, as yet.
Nonetheless, hifi is about what turns you on, and if having the sensation of realistic presence to musicians is your thing then so be it, you wont need to worry about musicality, but it would be nice if it were at least appreciated then at least an informed judgement could be made. Please dont get me wrong the Neat and its other friends are far from perfect, no speaker is perfect, but it speakes in a language that i understand and appreciate more -and would like to pursue further hopefully getting the hifi aspects of clarity, realism, bass depth/definition, dynamics etc etc etc. correct as well.
Why dont you read some of the reviews concerning Neat speakers then ask yourself why are they making such a big fuss over the musicality of it, whereas the same reviewers might not be regarding most other speakers. Why is the Wilson Watt puppies often described as cold and sterile and recently reviewers have started to claim that the WP8 has improved in that area over its predecessors. Most stereo has not got it right I am afraid to say most have got it wrong, its just that you are not appreciating it, as yet.
Nonetheless, hifi is about what turns you on, and if having the sensation of realistic presence to musicians is your thing then so be it, you wont need to worry about musicality, but it would be nice if it were at least appreciated then at least an informed judgement could be made. Please dont get me wrong the Neat and its other friends are far from perfect, no speaker is perfect, but it speakes in a language that i understand and appreciate more -and would like to pursue further hopefully getting the hifi aspects of clarity, realism, bass depth/definition, dynamics etc etc etc. correct as well.
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I was talking about PRAT, not musicality. That's where subjective terminology leads to difficult communication. I wouldn't begin to know how to define musicality in a speaker to tell you if I've heard it or not. I could imagine what one might think it to be, but to satisfy everyone's ideas of what it is through discourse could be difficult and lengthy. Labyrinthian diatribe is not my bailiwick. It's just simpler to speak in terms with agreed upon definitions. Legibility and communication are not synonyms.
Anyway, that was my best guess of what you were looking for--TT, tubes, and horns, but I was wrong. I think.
Dan
Anyway, that was my best guess of what you were looking for--TT, tubes, and horns, but I was wrong. I think.
Dan
Dan
I appreciate the concept of musicality is not clear by definition or in the case of engineers (sorry to generalise) by a measurable quantity. It is widely used by reviewers often with the same collective meaning. I have been trying to pass this message across with the various quips i have administered into the posts throughout.
The quality of PRAT is in my opinion so very readily discernible from each and every piece of hifi equipment. Although PRAT is not the definitive identifying factor in the meaning of musicality. The faster a note stops and starts the more likely it is to have PRAT. One way of hearing the difference in PRAT between instruments is to get the cd ali farka toure in the heart of the moon. Two acoustic instruments are played together with extremely complex fast and rythmic continuities. Play this on various systems, if the strands of the rhythms are held together well then you should hear the theme and enjoy the splendor of their musicianship. If the strands are not held together, you might get a live sound and hear every plucked strand but will not want to listen for long as you will not be getting any musical enjoyment out of it. I can tell you very very few pieces of hifi equipment can get this cd right. The most lyrical I remember was an audionote set up in recent times.
I appreciate the concept of musicality is not clear by definition or in the case of engineers (sorry to generalise) by a measurable quantity. It is widely used by reviewers often with the same collective meaning. I have been trying to pass this message across with the various quips i have administered into the posts throughout.
The quality of PRAT is in my opinion so very readily discernible from each and every piece of hifi equipment. Although PRAT is not the definitive identifying factor in the meaning of musicality. The faster a note stops and starts the more likely it is to have PRAT. One way of hearing the difference in PRAT between instruments is to get the cd ali farka toure in the heart of the moon. Two acoustic instruments are played together with extremely complex fast and rythmic continuities. Play this on various systems, if the strands of the rhythms are held together well then you should hear the theme and enjoy the splendor of their musicianship. If the strands are not held together, you might get a live sound and hear every plucked strand but will not want to listen for long as you will not be getting any musical enjoyment out of it. I can tell you very very few pieces of hifi equipment can get this cd right. The most lyrical I remember was an audionote set up in recent times.
Hi,
the term " musicalty" is being bandied about as though there is no techinical
understanding of it, nothing could be further from the truth. PRAT starts
with the turntable /arm (usually suspended) and if that has not got it
forget the rest.
Lots of things matter in a loudspeaker and there is no magic "musical"
ingredient, frequency response is not the be all and end all parameter,
and it can be manipulated to a degree dependent on other issues,
that is still proper engineering.
Good sounding speakers are engineered properly, they are no ways
around that in blind listening tests. I've read reviews of badly designed
speakers or "no design" diy speakers (e.g. OB's) where the reviewer is
blindly waffling on about this and that oblivious to the fact they could
simply be a lot better if done properly.
"Musical" is just shorthand for a whole raft of issues that affect the
sound of a speaker and represents well balanced compromises, the
time has been taken with experienced ears to balance them, this
is very related to "voicing" a speaker, fine tuning the response.
Different people do like diffrent things and one mans set of good
compromises might not the same as anothers.Quad ESL57's are
compromised in some respects by my god, what they do well .....
The Artistry, (the quote is engineering with more than seven variables
becomes an art, not science), is finding the compromises that suit
you at a particular price point. I'm not interested in "listen to the
extra air and detail" when all I can really hear is an exagerated
frequency response which is always detrimental to the areas
of sound not exagerated, i.e. are relatively recessed.
There is no excuse to do it wrong, and what will sound best is
always the "right" way of doing it for that partricular case.
rgds, sreten.
Paul Carmody's DIY Audio Projects - undefinition
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
RJB Audio Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
Humble Homemade Hifi
Click below to go to
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
the term " musicalty" is being bandied about as though there is no techinical
understanding of it, nothing could be further from the truth. PRAT starts
with the turntable /arm (usually suspended) and if that has not got it
forget the rest.
Lots of things matter in a loudspeaker and there is no magic "musical"
ingredient, frequency response is not the be all and end all parameter,
and it can be manipulated to a degree dependent on other issues,
that is still proper engineering.
Good sounding speakers are engineered properly, they are no ways
around that in blind listening tests. I've read reviews of badly designed
speakers or "no design" diy speakers (e.g. OB's) where the reviewer is
blindly waffling on about this and that oblivious to the fact they could
simply be a lot better if done properly.
"Musical" is just shorthand for a whole raft of issues that affect the
sound of a speaker and represents well balanced compromises, the
time has been taken with experienced ears to balance them, this
is very related to "voicing" a speaker, fine tuning the response.
Different people do like diffrent things and one mans set of good
compromises might not the same as anothers.Quad ESL57's are
compromised in some respects by my god, what they do well .....
The Artistry, (the quote is engineering with more than seven variables
becomes an art, not science), is finding the compromises that suit
you at a particular price point. I'm not interested in "listen to the
extra air and detail" when all I can really hear is an exagerated
frequency response which is always detrimental to the areas
of sound not exagerated, i.e. are relatively recessed.
There is no excuse to do it wrong, and what will sound best is
always the "right" way of doing it for that partricular case.
rgds, sreten.
Paul Carmody's DIY Audio Projects - undefinition
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
RJB Audio Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
Humble Homemade Hifi
Click below to go to
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
I took the liberty of snipping the links, but left the text as I consider this an excellent statement as to what is involved in speaker design. I would add that our experience from conducting "The Puget Sound! DIY Speaker Contest" over the last decade, is that the speakers that usually finish at the top always have had excellent frequency response measurements, which is performed after the blind judging takes place. The amount of money spent has seeming had absolutely nothing to do with the standings at the end of the Contest. I would submit however, that the skill of the designer has "everything" to do with the selection of those inevitable compromises that every design faces.
So, give me an excellent design and then "maybe" the issue of whatever "PRAT" is, can be discussed.
Best Regards,
TerryO
So, give me an excellent design and then "maybe" the issue of whatever "PRAT" is, can be discussed.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Hi,
Yes of course, its not just engineering, the skill come with experience, or
the rarer brilliant original ideas to be tried, in the end IMO its choosing
the drivers well *, knowing pretty much how they fit into the rest of
the design philosophy, its a circular process, not easily done.
rgds, sreten.
* this needs test results, to be interpreted, not blind faith.
OK here's a different answer and a different set of priorities. I'm a musician first - was pro many years (classical and jazz) - and a hobbyist audiophile builder second so that's where I'm coming from.
I'm quite clear about musicality, at least what it means to me as a musician. It's not about soundstage - when you're onstage you might be right on top of the drums and 10 feet from the vocals, so to me that's irrelevant. In any case I walk about when listening or even listen from the next room. I'm not even too concerned about a ruler flat frequency response and deep bass, as long as bass is there and there are no nasty audible resonances. I don't need huge dynamics and I'm not interested in horns. So what does that leave? It leaves TONE - the timbre of instruments. I get my exquisite delights from hearing a wind section that is uncannily realistic - the clarinets woody, the flutes breathy and the distinctive sound of the bassoon exactly as I heard it on stage. The vocals sending a shiver down your spine, the cymbals with that distinctive clear metal tone and shimmer, the brushwork on the snare clean and audible, a Steinway sounding different from a Bechstein. In other words, I want to feel I'm actually hearing live instruments, and also quite distinct in their individual spaces, not blurred or homogenised.
I can tell you how I get this sound - all DHT tube amplification. Very few people have heard this because it's not available commercially and you have to build it yourself from old 30s radio tubes, with complex and heavy filament supplies and good quality transformers. I get closer to the real sound I want with all-DHT amplification and a simple 6" full range speaker in a box than with the most advanced speaker design. The sound moves me - it's real and musical. Frequency response is certainly not flat but it's flattish enough.
I've also heard my amplification system through Quad 57 ESLs and that was quite stunning - engrossing, hypnotic, as gripping as anything I've heard, and with incredibly good PRAT.
I've been building hi-fi systems since the age of 14 and that's a long time ago, and I've been through dozens and dozens of iterations of components, and I'm pretty close to what I want, which is what to me is live music. That's my thrill. the system doesn't have to be perfect by any means, but it has to move you down to the tips of your toes. It has to make you laugh out loud and tap your foot uncontrollably.
That's my answer, and I've heard it working.
andy
I'm quite clear about musicality, at least what it means to me as a musician. It's not about soundstage - when you're onstage you might be right on top of the drums and 10 feet from the vocals, so to me that's irrelevant. In any case I walk about when listening or even listen from the next room. I'm not even too concerned about a ruler flat frequency response and deep bass, as long as bass is there and there are no nasty audible resonances. I don't need huge dynamics and I'm not interested in horns. So what does that leave? It leaves TONE - the timbre of instruments. I get my exquisite delights from hearing a wind section that is uncannily realistic - the clarinets woody, the flutes breathy and the distinctive sound of the bassoon exactly as I heard it on stage. The vocals sending a shiver down your spine, the cymbals with that distinctive clear metal tone and shimmer, the brushwork on the snare clean and audible, a Steinway sounding different from a Bechstein. In other words, I want to feel I'm actually hearing live instruments, and also quite distinct in their individual spaces, not blurred or homogenised.
I can tell you how I get this sound - all DHT tube amplification. Very few people have heard this because it's not available commercially and you have to build it yourself from old 30s radio tubes, with complex and heavy filament supplies and good quality transformers. I get closer to the real sound I want with all-DHT amplification and a simple 6" full range speaker in a box than with the most advanced speaker design. The sound moves me - it's real and musical. Frequency response is certainly not flat but it's flattish enough.
I've also heard my amplification system through Quad 57 ESLs and that was quite stunning - engrossing, hypnotic, as gripping as anything I've heard, and with incredibly good PRAT.
I've been building hi-fi systems since the age of 14 and that's a long time ago, and I've been through dozens and dozens of iterations of components, and I'm pretty close to what I want, which is what to me is live music. That's my thrill. the system doesn't have to be perfect by any means, but it has to move you down to the tips of your toes. It has to make you laugh out loud and tap your foot uncontrollably.
That's my answer, and I've heard it working.
andy
Andy thanks for your reply. At long last some balance to this thread from a musician who understands where i am coming from.
So lets have the details of your speaker design then!
O by the way had stacked quad 57's...... most realistic speakers i ever owned, alas no space had to sell them.
So lets have the details of your speaker design then!
O by the way had stacked quad 57's...... most realistic speakers i ever owned, alas no space had to sell them.
After some 25 years building speakers I realize that the following factors are important:
1. Reasonably flat off-axis frequency response (aka Constant Directivity)
2. Reasonably flat on-axis frequency response
3. Enough headroom to avoid speaker overload and distortion
4. Have a big enough listening room with GREAT (not just good) acoustics.
5. Room correction EQ
Can't think of anything else that's really important, and I do mean it!
I wonder how many of those at the 'diy speaker contest' casting their valuable votes actually knew what portrayed real music?? were they trained musicians?? Very few I suspect.
I am afraid to say in my opinion some of the biggest and richest manufacturers of hifi equipment get it wrong a lot of the time, and they must get expert advice ranging from the most experienced to the most highly acclaimed personnel not to mention the most advanced technological measuring equipment available.
If you look at my 5-point list and ask yourself what hifi brands fulfills that? Anyone? No?
No wonder they fail if you ask me......
No wonder they fail if you ask me......
Hi,
What makes you think I cannot play an instrument ?
FWIW you cannot say you care about tone but do not care
about frequency response*. DHT I'm guessing is double
heater triode, fair enough, but not typical for most.
It seems you want things described in your terms, but they
are relatively imprecise, there is no bias in using other terms.
rgds, sreten.
FWIW the worst hifi i've ever heard in my life was owned
by a talented musician, an Amstrad. It used to slow down
on loud recorded parts, not a little, a lot, as a bass player
dreadful, but he was not bothered, he could still imagine
what it would sound like and had no interest in fixing it.
What can I say ? typically professional musicians either have
poor (mostly), sometimes good, sometimes outstanding hifi's.
They are not the arbiters of what is good to most people.
* though there is a lot more to it than just FR, the "tone"
of valve amplifiers is very much to do with distortion effects.
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Sreten you are right i am generalising when i use the word 'Musicians', partially to be poignant. I have heard this story many a time. The musician only needs a portable stereo as they are able to fill in the missing gaps. That though does not make them a lesser judge were they to be placed in a critical listening contest!!
StigErik I hear what you are saying, but the latter three have infinite variables that surely could never be accommodated for?
StigErik I hear what you are saying, but the latter three have infinite variables that surely could never be accommodated for?
Whose to say that all musicains know what they are doing when it comes to the musical whole. Some of my colleagues do their job just for the money and are poor at what they do. They do not grasp very well the principals of their job nor care to understand them due to a lack of passion.
Dynamic headroom, a great listening room and EQ is better that not having it in opinion, but I know there's not just one answer to these questions. The same can be said for frequency response... just how flat is "flat" ?
(I am a trained musician by the way... 😉 )
(I am a trained musician by the way... 😉 )
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