The hardest part of old transformers? Getting a good working set. You will never be able to replicate it exactly with respect to materials or what could be a serendipitous winding, so why not just find an old pair and go from there? Either that or pay someone some coin and see what you get and hope for the best.
I wouldn't know about the MC3500. Haven't seen it and to be honest, I don't have the time to look into that rabbit hole.
No, I am not saying that some modern toroidal transformers are better than a vintage unity coupled mc transformer. I don't know how you might have got that into your head, but maybe re-read what I wrote in both my posts regarding the design of the 8b transformers and their topology -- it is there in black and white. The toroidals were in reference to the near clone amplifier of a near clone amplifier.
What I also said was that with available and well tested diy tube amplifer designs and components you can build an amplifier that approaches and often surpasses what you can find out on the open market. This would apply to modern and vintage. I still stand by that, "yesterday's gold is today's silver".
How can you make the known and simpler 8b design and make it a 300 watt monobloc?!? 300 watts into a monobloc using a push pull UL topology as found in the Marantz 8b? That is out of my realm of knowledge and experience, but I venture a guess and say it is more than likely impossible without a full re-design. There is a lot more math involved than just changing a few tubes and the transformers around.
Now when you ask, "What's the most powerful single stage amp that I can DIY? Can I get common modern wattage like 75-100watts from a single stage tube amp?"
Well, I am not sure if I even want to touch this. Most powerful single stage tube amp? Common modern wattage?
Do you mean single ended? To get 75 to 100 watts on an SE amplifier is not easy. That is a room heater using a big tube like an 845 or 211 or 807. It isn't easy and it wouldn't be all that nice on the wallet to buy the iron. I've never built one but I know that the +B on something that powerful is out of my range.
You know, it might be best that you go out and buy your monoblocs directly from McIntosh Labs. They have an anniversary edition that they released of their MC75. It would solve many of your problems. Not only do you get the unity transformers you want from McIntosh, but you also get their chassis work, tubes, workmanship and all of this is wrapped up with any improvements McIntosh Labs saw fit to put into their latest tube amplifiers. Their service and warranty is pretty good from what I understand.
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I think I'm asking the wrong people then if you guys don't know what the most powerful SE amp is.
Anyone can buy something, it's way cooler to make it yourself.
Nobody answered if the Germany guy who cloned the MC3500 actually documented the OT so that others could pick up where he left off?
Anyone can buy something, it's way cooler to make it yourself.
Nobody answered if the Germany guy who cloned the MC3500 actually documented the OT so that others could pick up where he left off?
Or, just tie the screens to a fixed supply. This is a 50% tapped "ultra-linear", so would work OK for homebrew.
Your comments about circlotrons and Crowhurst got me thinking about push-pull type 211's. A nice really linear load wants to be about 30K Ohms - yikes! But your thoughts get that down to realistic numbers. Darn, another project.
Much thanks, as always,
Chris
Nobody makes the powerful tubes in SE into a commercial product and selection is rather limited. Start from the tubes, RCA 833A 300W, Eimac 304TL 300W and Russian GM100 1000W. You can study the datasheets and schematics for them, probably expand your selections then decide on the poison most suitable to your need. SE amps are simple in concept. Choose a design you like, commission a transformer house and off you go with your DIY project. When considering Most Powerful SE, I would look away from puny thin sounding Mac, CJ, H/K or Marantz amps. Now that those points are out of the way, I don't do powerful, not my cup of tea, I subscribe to the Firstwatt way of doing things.
Maybe you aren't asking the right questions. A single stage amp and a single ended amp are two very different things. I can answer these with numbers, but they would essentially be meaningless.
The biggest single STAGE amp that I personally have made was about 8 watts per channel. It was an experiment to see if it could be done, and it wasn't good for much. The biggest single stage amp seen on these forums is 5 watts or less.
The biggest SINGLE ENDED amp that I have personally made was 200 watts. It was again an experiment to test a custom transformer that I had wound by an experienced transformer winder at a cost of $200. The transformer turned out to be not good enough for HiFi, but it made for a wicked guitar amp. The test amp ran on 1500 volts, and is NOT something that should be attempted by an inexperienced builder.
I'm sure that given enough money a 1000+ watt SE amp can be built. They have been commonly made for years, as the modulator stage in a radio transmitter.....again the transformer and the super deadly voltages are the issues.
Sometime later another member of this forum took the same concept further, had some custom transformers made in Europe and successfully build a 200 WPC SE amp for "cheaper than a Corvette..." This amp runs on 2300 volts which can make you dead real quick....no margin for error. His build thread is here:
The Midlife Crisis - My 833C Amp Build
You also talk about power as if it's the only criteria, then mention sound quality is terms like "round" that can't be easily quantified, so your questions can't be easily answered. I gave up answering several days ago when this spread out over three or more threads.
Tube amps come in many flavors, and yes there are clones of several popular designs from the past. The old Macs were popular in the day, but not commonly copied much today. I suspect that the transformers are a big issue, but they were only a small part of the huge amp market of the past, so there aren't as many ardent fans of them left to create a demand.
Clearly you want to build something, and you yourself aren't quite sure what that is. Nobody here knows what your DIY build skills are.
If you were given all the parts for a MC240 or whatever, and a schematic, could you build it, set it up, and make it work properly?
Could you order the correct parts and build a clone amp from just a schematic, possibly choosing you own transformers and parts from a list of possible candidates?
Could you troubleshoot it if it didn't work properly?
If you can't say yes to the first question, starting off with a complex design is a recipe for failure. A first DIY build should be a kit, or a simple design with a known history of success by first time builders.
If you are sure of number two, then maybe one of the clone designs is a good choice, but I would still stay with something known to have a good success rate.
Number three is REQUIRED for any complex or high voltage design. Nothing kills a project, a complete hobby, or even the builder, as quick as dropping a kilobuck or more on a project and seing it go up in flames when you first plug it in. Big complex designs are usually build stage by stage and tested incrementally along the process. Some electronics knowledge, understanding, and skill is needed.
The probability of success in any first endeavor in unknown field drops rapidly with the complexity of the project. If you had never built or rebuilt a car's engine before, would your first build be a NASCAR spec race motor capable of 600+ HP at 8000 RPM. It so, your chances are slim for success. I started out hot-rodding old cars and 20 years later made some big engines, still having experts do the critical stuff.
The same is true here. Building a 350 watt amp as a first project has a very low probability of success. A 100 watt amp has a slightly higher, but low probability of success. Dig through these or any other audio forums and count the number of 10 to 30 watt amps, then count the number of 100+ watt amps. My first audio amps over 50 years ago all made well under 10 watts.
My 200 watt SE amp ended in failure because the OPT was not good enough for the job. The winder expressed his doubt's at the time he made it, but I dropped the $$$ and took my chances. I lost. I still have the transformer almost 15 years later, and maybe I will build a monster guitar amp some day.
Here is a sad example of someone who went down the same path. Clearly his transformer winder did NOT understand the voltage and insulation requirements of an audio output transformer, and the results were a fried transformer, and the end of a hobby. Alex has not been heard from since this build.
High voltage driver for AB2 operation GU81m tubes
Read through both of these threads, as well as the Engineers Amp thread. They will tell you a lot about what's involved in designing or building big or complex amps, then maybe we can answer some of your questions.
Attachments
Tubelab here above speaks words of wisdom. The original McIntosh designs were very complicated having multiple nested feedback loops, and to be honest, maybe even a little bit too complicated for the measured performance. I'm not saying they measure bad, but I believe similar performance could've achieved with a simpler circuit. Same sound, though? Probably not. And you'd need an expert winder to get your hands on similar output transformers, plus dozens of trials and errors, since very few DIY'ers ever try to reproduce these designs. And atop of that, a good bunch of expertise in amplifier design.
But in general, once you start going over - oh maybe 30 watts - things start to get a little tricky for a beginner, especially if you're building something from just a schematic. Here you are almost without exception talking about feedback amplifiers, and understanding about feedback loops, amplifier compensation and a basic set of measurement equipment are mandatory. Unless you have the EXACT components used in the original schematic. Without these you run the risk of ending up with a powerful oscillator rather than an amplifier. Slapping a feedback loop around an output transformer isn't exactly a trivial feat. Of course it's doable, but I wouldn't suggest any beginner to start there...
The Marantz presented here seems like a variation on the old Mullard 5-20 scheme. The feedback winding it has makes it difficult to find an off-the-shelf transformer, though. But there is a very thorough paper written by Claus Byrith on the Lundahl webpage: Lundahl Transformers • Old fashioned 30W Push Pull amplifier
That one goes to great lengths to explain every aspect of the amplifier at hand, and the transformers aren't unobtainium. Maybe read that through, the measured performance at least is quite good.
I think I'm still forgetting many a good point here... Especially about transformers... Push-pull transformers are easier to make than SE OPT's. And the McIntosh circuit is more forgiving on the transformers than many a more traditional push-pull. And any OPT for more than say 50 watts is going to be expensive and difficult to manufacture. But the OPT is not the amplifier. It's just the component that most probably ruins an amplifiers performance.
But in general, once you start going over - oh maybe 30 watts - things start to get a little tricky for a beginner, especially if you're building something from just a schematic. Here you are almost without exception talking about feedback amplifiers, and understanding about feedback loops, amplifier compensation and a basic set of measurement equipment are mandatory. Unless you have the EXACT components used in the original schematic. Without these you run the risk of ending up with a powerful oscillator rather than an amplifier. Slapping a feedback loop around an output transformer isn't exactly a trivial feat. Of course it's doable, but I wouldn't suggest any beginner to start there...
The Marantz presented here seems like a variation on the old Mullard 5-20 scheme. The feedback winding it has makes it difficult to find an off-the-shelf transformer, though. But there is a very thorough paper written by Claus Byrith on the Lundahl webpage: Lundahl Transformers • Old fashioned 30W Push Pull amplifier
That one goes to great lengths to explain every aspect of the amplifier at hand, and the transformers aren't unobtainium. Maybe read that through, the measured performance at least is quite good.
I think I'm still forgetting many a good point here... Especially about transformers... Push-pull transformers are easier to make than SE OPT's. And the McIntosh circuit is more forgiving on the transformers than many a more traditional push-pull. And any OPT for more than say 50 watts is going to be expensive and difficult to manufacture. But the OPT is not the amplifier. It's just the component that most probably ruins an amplifiers performance.
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If you can't duplicate the OT, then leave it out.
The MC3500 with 8 big TV Sweep tubes per channel for 350 Watts just needs a few more Sweep tubes to make it as an OTL amplifier. (Output TransformerLess)
No more big expense or headache to make the OT. And the BW is sky high without it. A Circlotron output stage (rather than Totem Pole) still fits a conventional (CFB driver) front end. Will require plenty of N Fdbk to get the output impedance down however. Suggest getting one of those "cheater" OTL xfmrs, oversized, that will give you a 4 to 1 ratio for reasonable load Z. That will require fewer tubes, less heat, less power supply, and will protect the speakers from DC offsets. Won't be an easy project still, but less costly if things do burn up a couple of times. Big Sweep tubes are getting scarce and pricey however.
Getting smarter, we change all those paralleled output tubes for a few big paralleled Mosfets instead, and use an "emulation driver" front end. This is a N Fdbk scheme that makes each bank of Mosfets behave just like a model tube in the circuit. (one emulant tube for each bank of Mosfets) Has been discussed before.
The MC3500 with 8 big TV Sweep tubes per channel for 350 Watts just needs a few more Sweep tubes to make it as an OTL amplifier. (Output TransformerLess)
No more big expense or headache to make the OT. And the BW is sky high without it. A Circlotron output stage (rather than Totem Pole) still fits a conventional (CFB driver) front end. Will require plenty of N Fdbk to get the output impedance down however. Suggest getting one of those "cheater" OTL xfmrs, oversized, that will give you a 4 to 1 ratio for reasonable load Z. That will require fewer tubes, less heat, less power supply, and will protect the speakers from DC offsets. Won't be an easy project still, but less costly if things do burn up a couple of times. Big Sweep tubes are getting scarce and pricey however.
Getting smarter, we change all those paralleled output tubes for a few big paralleled Mosfets instead, and use an "emulation driver" front end. This is a N Fdbk scheme that makes each bank of Mosfets behave just like a model tube in the circuit. (one emulant tube for each bank of Mosfets) Has been discussed before.
I've been around audio equipment and building it for a long time. I built my first SS integrated amp kit in the 4th grade and got 1st in my science fair (in reality dad built 99% of it.) I can probably put together a MC240 from just looking at another MC240 or a schematic it's not THAT complex. I think I already took it apart once to see what was in the big black things or I could just be remembering a video. I know I took the c20 and mc240 apart as a kid just not sure if I looked inside the black things, I think I did but it's fuzzy in my mind right now. I refurbished my dad's AR XA by taking some parts from another one (wish I kept the other one when it was $5 at garage sales.) I was one of those kids who took everything apart.
However, I'm not as stupid as I sound. I don't want to do something the hard way (well yes i probably do but not first off), that's why I'm asking you guys... and appreciate the responses. I fully understand that the best/easiest/cheapest way is to buy some MC240 or other quality OT and go from there or a couple old MAC amps and refurbish them. I would be fine with that, but I think they are getting more and more expensive and rare every day. I think now I want to look at SE and PushPull quality tube amp kits or quality instructions/schematics that are really good like the MC240 or better specs and sound quality. I think a really quality SE tube amp with 20 or more watts and super low distortion and great sound quality would be a good idea. Or is there a recommended kit for a "more or less" MC240 or MC275 clone with the same or better performance (I like the +/-.1% db of the original MC240 and how it can handle almost any speaker. I leave our JBL J19s hooked up to the 2ohms connectors on the MC240 as I recall.) Yes I know the MC240 is not a SE amp. I like the MC240 for it to be "good enough" for me. Anything that isn't as good as the MC240 won't likely be worth my time to build or buy. When I stopped audio related stuff in the 90s the MC240 was considered entry level, but now it seems like more people like them by a big margin, this is the last time I had a subscription to Audio magazine.
From what I've read I don't think I'll like the 8b since it sounds like it's weak in the bass and lacks the punch compared to the MC240. It may be cleaner and more detailed than the MC240 but I think people mistake cleaner and more detailed with "less power" (just my opinion.) But I've never heard a 8b so I really don't know.
In reality I don't know the difference between single stage and singled ended (I kind of do but not like a practices EE knows,) but I was asking the question that I wanted the answer to. I've been into audio for a long time. I'm just not as much into it anymore (maybe getting back into it) because nothing has changed, except now I see some interesting improvements in speaker technology, which is interesting... and there are some new materials and patents for the amps which look interesting too, but up until the most recent revival of interest in analog, nothing was going on. Records from the 1960's still sound better than even remastered CDs, we were all duped into this digital stuff. I just listened to an original Simon and Garfunkel LP from the 60s on the MC240+Mac C20 preamp+JBL-L19+AR XA turbtable with a Staunton 500 cartridge, sounded better than the CD's I have of the same recordings and this cartridge has been in a plastic box for a good 25 years and is mounted with 1 screw in a cracked headshell that I had to repair with jb weld and re-soldier one of the wires to get it to work. Half the tubes must be out or 50% or less and who knows what else is subpar in this old equipment, but it still sounds so much better than digital. I remember when we were trying to get rid of the tube stuff in the 1980's, so glad we didn't... Just imagine if we hadn't ditched analog in the 70's/80s and had been improving analog tech all this time, it would be so good now. People today who've never heard analog are deprived.
So here's a 20w single ended tube amp... can I make one like that pretty easily? Then I can make 4 of them and get a lot of wattage... is it possible to strap 4 SE amps like this together in series/parallel (forget which) to make more watts without bi-amping?
I'm a fan of 6db or no crossovers, so going high sensitivity in the speakers is fine with me.
845 Single-Ended Triode Mono Power Amplifier - Thöress
And here's something claimed to be new, but probably not new, do you guys know about this "magnetic" tech? Those are some pretty low distortion levels. Can this be DIYed?
High Fidelity Cables - MA-70 Monoblock Amplifiers
What's this guy doing for his OT and amp design? How much difference does it make putting the power supply in a different box?
YouTube
However, I'm not as stupid as I sound. I don't want to do something the hard way (well yes i probably do but not first off), that's why I'm asking you guys... and appreciate the responses. I fully understand that the best/easiest/cheapest way is to buy some MC240 or other quality OT and go from there or a couple old MAC amps and refurbish them. I would be fine with that, but I think they are getting more and more expensive and rare every day. I think now I want to look at SE and PushPull quality tube amp kits or quality instructions/schematics that are really good like the MC240 or better specs and sound quality. I think a really quality SE tube amp with 20 or more watts and super low distortion and great sound quality would be a good idea. Or is there a recommended kit for a "more or less" MC240 or MC275 clone with the same or better performance (I like the +/-.1% db of the original MC240 and how it can handle almost any speaker. I leave our JBL J19s hooked up to the 2ohms connectors on the MC240 as I recall.) Yes I know the MC240 is not a SE amp. I like the MC240 for it to be "good enough" for me. Anything that isn't as good as the MC240 won't likely be worth my time to build or buy. When I stopped audio related stuff in the 90s the MC240 was considered entry level, but now it seems like more people like them by a big margin, this is the last time I had a subscription to Audio magazine.
From what I've read I don't think I'll like the 8b since it sounds like it's weak in the bass and lacks the punch compared to the MC240. It may be cleaner and more detailed than the MC240 but I think people mistake cleaner and more detailed with "less power" (just my opinion.) But I've never heard a 8b so I really don't know.
In reality I don't know the difference between single stage and singled ended (I kind of do but not like a practices EE knows,) but I was asking the question that I wanted the answer to. I've been into audio for a long time. I'm just not as much into it anymore (maybe getting back into it) because nothing has changed, except now I see some interesting improvements in speaker technology, which is interesting... and there are some new materials and patents for the amps which look interesting too, but up until the most recent revival of interest in analog, nothing was going on. Records from the 1960's still sound better than even remastered CDs, we were all duped into this digital stuff. I just listened to an original Simon and Garfunkel LP from the 60s on the MC240+Mac C20 preamp+JBL-L19+AR XA turbtable with a Staunton 500 cartridge, sounded better than the CD's I have of the same recordings and this cartridge has been in a plastic box for a good 25 years and is mounted with 1 screw in a cracked headshell that I had to repair with jb weld and re-soldier one of the wires to get it to work. Half the tubes must be out or 50% or less and who knows what else is subpar in this old equipment, but it still sounds so much better than digital. I remember when we were trying to get rid of the tube stuff in the 1980's, so glad we didn't... Just imagine if we hadn't ditched analog in the 70's/80s and had been improving analog tech all this time, it would be so good now. People today who've never heard analog are deprived.
So here's a 20w single ended tube amp... can I make one like that pretty easily? Then I can make 4 of them and get a lot of wattage... is it possible to strap 4 SE amps like this together in series/parallel (forget which) to make more watts without bi-amping?
I'm a fan of 6db or no crossovers, so going high sensitivity in the speakers is fine with me.
845 Single-Ended Triode Mono Power Amplifier - Thöress
And here's something claimed to be new, but probably not new, do you guys know about this "magnetic" tech? Those are some pretty low distortion levels. Can this be DIYed?
High Fidelity Cables - MA-70 Monoblock Amplifiers
What's this guy doing for his OT and amp design? How much difference does it make putting the power supply in a different box?
YouTube
I get all that... I'm more the measure twice cut once type person. I'm not about to start soldering unknown electronic parts together.
So the SE are harder to build even from a kit or a really detailed instruction list/schematic than PP even though the SE seem much simpler and usually have super low wattage?
Is there a better OT that I can make or buy that is better or as good as the Mac unity coupled? Or are all OT made today just pieces of junk since it seems that nobody does it like they used to in audio and the USA has been stripped of at least 2 generations of intelligent engineers by now?
I've learned so far that the OT is #1 part, and I also know from experience that everything matters like quality capacitors and other parts. I would prefer point to point since I can't understand how a circuit board can sound good.
Thanks for the suggestions! I think I'm looking for a kit now and maybe buy some better parts than what come with it. But my original specs are the same: MC240 quality specs or better and similar sound profile (strong, quiet, a lot of power reserve, doesn't sound like crispy solid state, but not too squishy like a bad tube amp.) SE would be great if power is high enough since I heard they are the purest signal to the speaker compared to PP amps.
Are any tubes still made? Why not the big ones from the MC3500?
These are good ideas. I don't need high power like the MC3500, but if I can why not?
The more pure of a design that I can get the better, that's why I'm looking at SE designs too.
I like the concepts behind this stuff at Oswalds Mill Audio: YouTube
Is there a better OT I can just plug into the MC240 schematic or into a real MC240 that will work as good or better than the unity coupled OT?
These are good ideas. I don't need high power like the MC3500, but if I can why not?
The more pure of a design that I can get the better, that's why I'm looking at SE designs too.
I like the concepts behind this stuff at Oswalds Mill Audio: YouTube
Is there a better OT I can just plug into the MC240 schematic or into a real MC240 that will work as good or better than the unity coupled OT?
Is this any good? I'd prefer it without the pre-amp with a simple gain/volume like the MC240.
https://www.amazon.com/Push-Pull-In...-Protect/dp/B012CSK30E/ref=asc_df_B012CSK30E/
I heard there were some fake tube amps from China that just put tubes on top but use all SS working parts, is this one of them? Is there such a thing as class A and Push Pull? If so what does that mean?
https://www.amazon.com/Push-Pull-In...-Protect/dp/B012CSK30E/ref=asc_df_B012CSK30E/
I heard there were some fake tube amps from China that just put tubes on top but use all SS working parts, is this one of them? Is there such a thing as class A and Push Pull? If so what does that mean?
Single Ended amplifiers and "super low distortion" don't exactly go hand in hand. An SE amplifier achieving less than 1% THD running at full tilt would be considered quite good indeed. Their forté is more in their distortion characteristics, which tend to be quite simple in nature, so the level of THD might seem high, but due to it's nature wouldn't be that audible.
Another downfall of most SE amplifiers is the bass response. Very few SE transformers can do 20 Hz at full power without core saturation, but there are some. And the problem gets worse the more power you try achieving. I don't see much point in single ended amplifiers with more than say 10 watts of power, give or take a little.
That Marantz has a sound basic topology, and were I you I'd take a gander at that Claus Byrith paper I linked earlier. There's no reason why the basic Mullard topology couldn't make proper bass. I'm currently working on what is basically a variation on the same theme using KT66 output tubes, and that amp has no problem shaking the walls when tickled a little. I'm using Hammond output iron, and I see basically no rise in THD before the frequency drops under 30Hz, even when run allmost full tilt (around 35 watts or so...).
This guy said he made a unity couple OT by hand for $36 in parts and it tested out with good measurements.
Winding Unity Coupled Toroid OPT+IT
Winding Unity Coupled Toroid OPT+IT
Attachments
The good ones are made to order. Regular consumers are no longer willing to swallow the production cost. I seriously doubt regular consumers can perceive or even care for the difference between off the shelf "El cheapo" and the good ones, the cheap ones have somewhat improved. Most consumers consider moderately priced tube gears are in ridiculous price bracket and the good ones in the extortion category. Intelligent engineers have to make a living and feed their families, they see no future in a shrinking audio transformer business, and they are no dummy. Only a very select few has access to price no object market such as JC Morrison and a few others, notably in the Far East and Europe. Otherwise it's DIY and hobbyist market, not dependable enough for a steady income.
That's all a little much for me at this point. I'll look at it. All I really have to compare with is a MC240. Did you see this guy who says he did his own unity coupled transformer for $36?
Winding Unity Coupled Toroid OPT+IT
To be honest if he and others "really" did that then I can do it and I think the best path is a MC240 or MC275 clone and then work on improving the quality of the parts if there are better parts in 2019 than in 1960s and I've heard about some mods like a charged tube or something like that (something like putting a 9V battery on one of the tubs) that further reduced distortion.
If I can't ever figure out these unity coupled OTs then I'll just have to find out what the next best thing is. That's why I went for the next best amp that I remembered and that was the Conrad Johnson, but seems not many know how they are made either.
Yes, and add in the global outsourcing to China and India and it seems the best quality stuff was made pre-President Clinton. Maybe Trump can move all the transformer factories back to the USA and we can get some quality things made again.
About how much is a one off custom transformer like those used in these push pull tube amps that we talk about on here? You'd think that the real transformer gurus have the McIntosh unity coupled design memorized.
Is there a more famous or better OT than the unity coupled that McIntosh made in the 1940s?
Also regarding that I've read that everyone seems to say that the old iron core transformers were better, why is this? Everything I've known and read says that air core has lower distortion...
If so, wouldn't that make air core OTs better than the older iron cores? Maybe that's why the new MC275s don't have iron cores?
Air Core vs Iron Core - When?
If so, wouldn't that make air core OTs better than the older iron cores? Maybe that's why the new MC275s don't have iron cores?
Air Core vs Iron Core - When?
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