The systems at Rue de Belfort, Paris, 30 years ago, had a huge influence among a whole generation of french audiophiles. All the components of these systems - mainly : preamp (Kaneda), active crossover (Kaneda), amplifiers (valve single-ended, Kaneda, Hiraga), drivers (Altec, JBL, horns) - were considered as THE references.
Not for everybody ! But it could not be expressed in the french audio magazines at the time.
Starting at the beginning of this century, things change with a new generation of audiophiles, more technical and less easily influenced, who could give and share their opinions, often very critical towards the previous tendency, through internet.
At the same time, larger diffusion of information, better and low cost hardware and measuring devices help to explore more objective approachs of audio.
Currently, I know quite a lot of people, owning or having owned high efficiency systems (with horns), who appreciate direct drivers loudspeakers, whatever their efficiency, just as much.
It can be deduced that the dynamics ability of loudspeakers is not necessarily an obvious priority even for those who are familiar with systems efficient in this respect.
True, true. But for me the big speakers, especially the big horns, do more than just dynamics. Dynamics are just the icing on the cake, as we say in America.
I do have to take exception to part of what you say. What I liked so much about the French Revues at the time was their emphasis on measurements and the technical side. They taught me the technical reasons for doing things, not just a cult following. The books were good, too. But we are going off topic.
I do have to take exception to part of what you say. What I liked so much about the French Revues at the time was their emphasis on measurements and the technical side. They taught me the technical reasons for doing things, not just a cult following. The books were good, too. But we are going off topic.
Hmm,
I have a ripped Led Zeppelin collection of 4 CD's. have no idea what it's name. Anyway, it's possible to hear Bonham's hitting harder and softer on snare and kick drums, Robert Plant screaming or whispering. Holy cow, don't need huge speakers, just some small Genelec monitors with good recordings and no need for high db's.
Well, unless you're in need for blowing your ears out of the window. But that's not dynamics, is it?
In my current apartment I can't play loud so my puny speakers are exceptionally good;o)
I have a ripped Led Zeppelin collection of 4 CD's. have no idea what it's name. Anyway, it's possible to hear Bonham's hitting harder and softer on snare and kick drums, Robert Plant screaming or whispering. Holy cow, don't need huge speakers, just some small Genelec monitors with good recordings and no need for high db's.
Well, unless you're in need for blowing your ears out of the window. But that's not dynamics, is it?
In my current apartment I can't play loud so my puny speakers are exceptionally good;o)
Sure, and that goes back to what I said earlier. Being able to do clean peaks 18dB or more above your average listening level. If that level is low, you may not need big speakers.
Most Rock has a limited dynamic range, but I'd have to look at some Zep to see. Or I can show you how to do so.
Most Rock has a limited dynamic range, but I'd have to look at some Zep to see. Or I can show you how to do so.
This seems to be a major part of the "battle" ... many audio people just don't "get it", when you listen to the sort of systems they're enthusiastic about you spend most of the time feeling like this: 😕,
, 😕, , ... 😉
The original CD mastering of Led Zep I is a fabulous showpiece for a system with genuine dynamics - which is why it usually sounds terrible on most hifi setups !!! That recording exposes the typical failings of the conventional audio rig in a glaringly obvious way - hence most don't think much of the recording! Get it right, and this album is an amazing sound journey ... 😉.
I don't know if I have the original mastering of Zep I. On the copy I have, the songs have about a 15dB dynamic range. That's RMS to peak. A couple of tracks are at 17dB.
If your average listening SPL was 80dB (moderately loud) you'd need to hit 97dB on the peaks, clean.
If your average listening SPL was 80dB (moderately loud) you'd need to hit 97dB on the peaks, clean.
From Wikipedia on Lep Zeppelin (album): "Barry Diament – original 1986 CD mastering"
The real point here is that there is tremendous detail in the low level information, acoustic detail which throws up a vast sound stage, which extends huge distances - literally, sounding like it's coming from a kilometre away.
The real point here is that there is tremendous detail in the low level information, acoustic detail which throws up a vast sound stage, which extends huge distances - literally, sounding like it's coming from a kilometre away.
Last edited:
Chris, well-said. You hit the nail very accurately on the head, but I fear too many have no real knowledge of this depth.
Speakers that are the most dynamic that I've heard or owned (altough these are not my pair, above, but a prettier pair in San Antonio).
Two-way Klipsch Jubilees with TAD TD-4002 HF drivers on K-402 modified tractrix (accelerated throat expansion) horns, Yamaha SP2060 loudspeaker processor (24/96) crossing at approx. 425 Hz. and doing EQ calibrated in the anechoic chamber in Hope AR.
What makes these speakers dynamic? Large midrange/HF horns that control their polars throughout their passband, unlike the typical collapsing polar midrange horns having a very short vertical mouth dimension. The K-402s will actually control their polars down to 200 Hz, matching polars at the crossover point with the bass bin, fully horn loaded. Sensitivity is 106 dB/metre on bass bin, 111 dB/metre on Hf horn. Dynamic--group delay plot is flat and impulse response that is almost unbelievable even at 110 dBC with extremely low (inter-)modulation distortion, with a huge soundstage that fills the end of any room they're put into. Effortless sounding--you forget that you're listening to canned music played back.
Direct radiating bass bins don't do that, IMHE and exhibit much higher levels of AM, FM, and compression distortion.
Chris
Jeff
Harking back to the OP, the question was "I am trying to identify the parameters that make a speaker sound open and dynamic." My point is that the answer is not in using a particular recording that has exaggerated measurable dynamics to highlight that behaviour, but in working towards allowing the system to 'illuminate' the natural dynamics that realistic sound reproduction has, on any recording.
For a recording that has engineered, massive dynamic swings I would go to the soundtrack album of the film Moulin Rouge - the volume has to be way up to hear the subtle, soft intro to a track, then moments later the speakers explode with a massive onslaught of a high energy, all guns blazing, musical crescendo - then, drop away to almost nothing again ...
For a recording that has engineered, massive dynamic swings I would go to the soundtrack album of the film Moulin Rouge - the volume has to be way up to hear the subtle, soft intro to a track, then moments later the speakers explode with a massive onslaught of a high energy, all guns blazing, musical crescendo - then, drop away to almost nothing again ...
I vote for, "it sounds that way", 🙂.
IME, systems with poor subjective dynamics are so because there is too much low level distortion, noise modulation, whatever you want to call it. The ears should hear low level information just as clearly as the high level musical notes, and if they don't then the impression is poor dynamics - there is no volume where the balance between loud and soft elements seems right, and only a relatively extreme recording that exaggerates these contrasts will come across well ...
IME, systems with poor subjective dynamics are so because there is too much low level distortion, noise modulation, whatever you want to call it. The ears should hear low level information just as clearly as the high level musical notes, and if they don't then the impression is poor dynamics - there is no volume where the balance between loud and soft elements seems right, and only a relatively extreme recording that exaggerates these contrasts will come across well ...
Thanks for that. I'll again state my desire to see a "high efficiency forum" or the like here, decoupled from the single-driver (i.e., high FM distortion) crowd, "exotic" planar crowd, and the multi-way direct-radiating crowd. I think that these dialogue collisions will continue as long as the direct radiating crowd think that these kind of discussions are actually "just another direct radiator thread".
I've pushed the envelope a bit in this thread--but only to convey to those that may not have heard that the world isn't the same as it was...direct radiating designs are actually not the state of the art, IMO. The work of Floyd Tool, et al. has shown us the importance of controlled coverage in human listening tests, i.e., not just "wide coverage".
Our understanding of loudspeaker/room/driving electronics effects is actually much better nowadays. DIYers have powerful tools available for analysis, design and measurement that were merely dreams only 10-15 years ago. With newer technologies available to us in terms of mechanical and electromagnetic properties for loudspeaker design, and in acoustics analytics and measurement, "older" technologies come to life in ways that we never expected. In particular, new horn-loaded designs avoid the pitfalls of the past rather spectacularly, IMO.
One of the newer design approaches is the multiple entrant horns of Tom Danley (i.e., Unity and Synergy), others include refinements of compression driver technology, and in horn design to avoid emergent HOMs and audible nonlinearities near the horn mouth. Nowadays, new horn designs achieve neutral sounding output, avoid creating impedance bounces interior to the horn, and retain very wide operating dynamics and extremely wide controlled coverage on the output, as well as avoid near field room reflections from the ceiling, floor and side walls, thus producing outstanding stereo and multi-channel imaging, while producing almost breathtaking dynamic performance. And these designs require very clean driving electronics rather than extremely powerful amplifiers with their requisite issues.
Last edited:
Cask05,
There is a condition I think you omit to mention to exploit efficient systems. As they are cumbersome, they need a listening distance to give a coherent sonic image and to avoid the hot spot. It implies space, large rooms, which not every body can afford.
Direct drivers are intended to be listened at shorter distances, 2-4 m typical.
My experience allows me to say that there is never unanimity towards a special kind of system.
Two years ago, I was in a meeting of six persons who listened JMLC horns (yes, the ones which belong to these new designs which avoid the pitfalls of the past rather spectacularly IMO).The room was standard, maybe 30 m². We were six persons. At least half of them would not like to have them at home.
So let people make their own choice instead of repeating the same speech trying to convince that there is nothing better than horns, it has already been heard thousands of times. This was a predominant position in France in the years before 2000 which has been severely criticized by the young generation since then. There are many kinds of drivers, direct, array, horn, electrostatic, full-range, and there exists people to find qualities in each category.
For me, they are nothing else than those which present very low noise and distortion. There many good examples.
No more no less than horn and high efficiency drivers (IMO) for which you proselytize.
There is a condition I think you omit to mention to exploit efficient systems. As they are cumbersome, they need a listening distance to give a coherent sonic image and to avoid the hot spot. It implies space, large rooms, which not every body can afford.
Direct drivers are intended to be listened at shorter distances, 2-4 m typical.
My experience allows me to say that there is never unanimity towards a special kind of system.
Two years ago, I was in a meeting of six persons who listened JMLC horns (yes, the ones which belong to these new designs which avoid the pitfalls of the past rather spectacularly IMO).The room was standard, maybe 30 m². We were six persons. At least half of them would not like to have them at home.
So let people make their own choice instead of repeating the same speech trying to convince that there is nothing better than horns, it has already been heard thousands of times. This was a predominant position in France in the years before 2000 which has been severely criticized by the young generation since then. There are many kinds of drivers, direct, array, horn, electrostatic, full-range, and there exists people to find qualities in each category.
What are clean driving electronics ?
For me, they are nothing else than those which present very low noise and distortion. There many good examples.
Since you ask...
First - the listening distance that you mention is something that has plagued older horn designs (of which I rate JMLC horns in that category since they have significant issues with both beaming and non-constant coverage.). My listening position is 2.3 metres from my fronts. Older horn designs not having time alignment are the only ones that I find have "convergence issues". (However, JMLC was a gentleman as he answered my questions on another forum. R.I.P.)
If you live in a tiny room, then you're going to have acoustics issues. Those issues will be worse with direct radiating loudspeakers, requiring placement of the loudspeaker out in the living area of the room, thus chewing up valuable real estate. The horns that I own occupy space that I never use otherwise - the corners of the room but they also work along a wall, as shown in the photo at the top of this thread.
"Let people make their own choice..." Why yes, they need to. In fact, they need good information on all sides that is accurate and not plagued with fallacies of relevance.
"What are clean driving electronics?" Amplifiers and preamps that put out much lower levels of harmonic/non-harmonic distortion and noise than typical 100 w/channel amplifiers when they are driven at micro-volt levels. These electronics exist. If you want my recommendations, I'll be happy to oblige...but I sense that you do not want my opinions on this subject.
Mr Forr does not like horns, that's clear. 🙂 Moi? I like horns, direct radiators, planars, electrostatics, open baffles and sometimes, even headphones. There is good and bad in all.
You choose what's important to you from among the weeds and flowers.
You choose what's important to you from among the weeds and flowers.
I know what dBC means, but it is a problem to measure a noise-based figure (dBC) with only a single or dual sine. For example, a single tone at 1 kHz played back with 85 dBC would be exactly 85 dBSPL, thus no big deal for a decent speaker.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.