I always thought that was backwards. Confused me when I first read it.
Quicker often means colored or louder. The old drivers were probably both.
Quicker often means colored or louder. The old drivers were probably both.
The quoted paragraph is nonsense. If anything sounds dull, it's the compromised
design with no real bass and rolled off highs. Like a single Lowther driver in a horn.
We'll assume the recording is excellent.
design with no real bass and rolled off highs. Like a single Lowther driver in a horn.
We'll assume the recording is excellent.
I disagree. If the speaker is accurate, then we should hear the music in the recording, and it should be interesting if the players/singers have great skills.
If you think you are correct, show me 2 drivers of EQUAL build quality and material, to prove your points. One driver FLAT and the other one is up to you, then we listen them full range. You can record music clips and create a poll.
I believe that your opinion regarding "correct" driver sounds uninteresting is because you have heard wrong crossover design, and that "correct" is absolute for you, but others might have different criteria for correctness.
I hope we didn't misunderstand each other. My point was that I strongly suggest that when people think that:
1) A speaker which is designed to sound as correct (aka reproducing the recording) as possible IS uninteresting.
2) A speaker which sounds spectacular (or "dynamic") is not sounding correct.
Then those people could have been misled to a wrong conclusion. And I have stated the reasons for the erroneous conclusion:
1) The sound was uninteresting because the crossover was wrong. I mentioned "full range" (aka crossoverless) to take filter design out of the equation.
2) Wrong concept of "correctness". When you mentioned "not sounding correct" you must have your own criteria for correctness. I agree with Joachim that most people put too much emphasis on flatness when talking about speakers.
Good, I'm pretty sure you can make a better speaker than Genelec😎
I agree but of course, I'm not a PROFESSIONAL😉
I would go one step further: a correct speaker does not sound. This is bit harsh, because there's always the speaker-room-interface, which can lead to different results, although both speakers are as correct as possible (which means: flat on-axis response, flat power response, distortion below audibility; how one achieves the second requirement can give very different results in different rooms).
Why would someone do this? Do you listen to crossoverless speakers?
And I disagree, because you can't put too much emphasis on flatness (which means: as soon as the errors are sufficiently below audibility threshold you're done).
I think we're talking in different language 😉 I'm a down-to-earth person 🙂
May be I'm misunderstood. I was not sure you are talking about correct DRIVER or about correct SPEAKER. A speaker may have 2 drivers joined with crossover. There's no perfect crossover imo. But may be you have assumed that your crossover is perfect. So, we have to look at single driver and see if you are correct or wrong. See my point with full-rangers?
You weren't even sure when you said "distortion below audibility". How much distortion is inaudible, BTW??
Think of it like this: speaker's flatness, amplifier's THD, are important, but they are pieces of cake. What do we have beyond that? That's the question.
I switched from drivers to speaker, that's right, maybe not obviuos enough. What's the problem with a crossover? As long as you keep the negative side effects (group delay distortion, distortion with passive crossovers) below audibility then there's no problem. In fact, without any crossover (digital, analaog, passive or even mechanic) it will be nearly impossible to built a correct speaker.
A single driver? What about a comparison between a PP and a alu woofer/midrange? The alu cone stores energy (it has resonances), the PP cone does not (because it's lossy). Guess which one will sound more "dynamic"... With a crossover it's a completely other story, they may sound even indistinguishable.
Have a look at Geddes work, very interesting. Many others have contributed available data, too.
Again: flat on-axis response, flat power response, low enough distortion. If you've done these right, you can optimize the group delay, but in reality this almost always a big problem (as soon as you designed your speaker right). Instead I would optimize the room, gives much more improvement.
system7
I think you are capable of making a better speaker, than the ones Genelec are flogging.
I think you are capable of making a better speaker, than the ones Genelec are flogging.
I have a hard time hearing my crossovers. But i know they are there and they help the drivers perform better. So notch, nudge, wink, wink.
I always feel high efficiency speakers such as horn have a power to express the difference between "silentness" and "no sound". With horn speakers, extremely quiet passage still has musical power, and the ambience has a vibe, not just air. This is quite obvious when I hear the live music recording. I can feel the lively audience very clearly with horn speakers.
So I can say the speaker dynamics does not mean more loudness, but more quietness. Low efficient speakers is not as good at expressing the silentness as horns, because they are less sensitive.
Also, transient sounds quite different between high efficiency and low efficiency speakers. Snare drum or big orchestra hit sounds much more real and punchy with high efficiency speakers.
One of the drawback of the high efficiency speakers is non-flat frequency response. This issue can be overcome with today's precise DSP EQ, but sometimes +10dB adjust is required to fix issues (CD horn, low frequency boost etc.), then I'm not sure if I can call them "high efficiency", but even so, "high efficiency" speakers still have better dynamics.
One of the drawback of the high efficiency speakers is non-flat frequency response. This issue can be overcome with today's precise DSP EQ, but sometimes +10dB adjust is required to fix issues (CD horn, low frequency boost etc.), then I'm not sure if I can call them "high efficiency", but even so, "high efficiency" speakers still have better dynamics.
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