@hifijim
No idea what you're talking about, but there is nothing proprietary about Klippel data.
(that's probably why they don't wanna share it)
In fact, the electronics industry has been sharing these kind of similar things for the last 70 years at least.
So engineers can actually make stuff on reliable data.
Aaaaaaanyway, I am not quite sure how these are made.
Could be either the same factory, or supplier or that certain design patents expired or something.
I have experience with sourcing OEM drivers myself from Asia and it's sometimes a bit of weird environment.
Or that Tymphany is outsourcing their stuff, or that other companies can use their facilities, OR that these days they are even part of a different company (haven't checked in a long time).
This SIG series reminds me more of the Nomex series, if I remember well those also have aluminium demodulation rings.
Wasn't their an Alu variant at some point as well?
Still the impedance graph looked better and more straight with those Peerless units, so I don't know what's going on here.
With a demodulation ring I would expect about half the Le value.
edit: I checked some similar 4 ohm woofers from like Wavecor and they have a similar impedance graph with alu rings.
Apparently it is possible, so I stand to be corrected I guess than.
Still wonder how well it performs.
No idea what you're talking about, but there is nothing proprietary about Klippel data.
(that's probably why they don't wanna share it)
In fact, the electronics industry has been sharing these kind of similar things for the last 70 years at least.
So engineers can actually make stuff on reliable data.
Aaaaaaanyway, I am not quite sure how these are made.
Could be either the same factory, or supplier or that certain design patents expired or something.
I have experience with sourcing OEM drivers myself from Asia and it's sometimes a bit of weird environment.
Or that Tymphany is outsourcing their stuff, or that other companies can use their facilities, OR that these days they are even part of a different company (haven't checked in a long time).
This SIG series reminds me more of the Nomex series, if I remember well those also have aluminium demodulation rings.
Wasn't their an Alu variant at some point as well?
Still the impedance graph looked better and more straight with those Peerless units, so I don't know what's going on here.
With a demodulation ring I would expect about half the Le value.
edit: I checked some similar 4 ohm woofers from like Wavecor and they have a similar impedance graph with alu rings.
Apparently it is possible, so I stand to be corrected I guess than.
Still wonder how well it performs.
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What I mean to say is that a manufacturer will closely guard any known deficiencies in their product, as long as it is not a public safety issue or there is a regulatory requirement for disclosure. Known deficiencies will be declared to be proprietary trade secrets because knowledge of the deficiency would be valuable to competitors, who could tailor their marketing strategy and even design new products to take advantage of the situation. By classifying the information as proprietary, this will prevent their engineers from discussing it at conferences, it will prevent their advertising people from disclosing it in brochures, and it will keep the information from being widely disseminated within the company. This kind of "proprietary trade secret" is common in the automotive industry, the aerospace industry, the computer chip industry, and the computer software industry... So i assume it would be common in the loudspeaker industry as well.
If publishing Klippel data would help sales, I think the driver makers would do it. But there is probably only a few who could point to the Klippel data with pride... for many it would be somewhat embarrassing. Thus, no data...
If publishing Klippel data would help sales, I think the driver makers would do it. But there is probably only a few who could point to the Klippel data with pride... for many it would be somewhat embarrassing. Thus, no data...
Then there are the facts that some build houses have a Klippel or access to a Klippel, and can Klippel the drivers or finished designs, but really have no idea how to use the information drawn from said Klippel to improve on the designs. Therefore, products have been Klippeled, but that is about all that can be said. I hear it is a "weird environment" too.
Reminds me of : https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/04/you_cannot_buy_software/
The customer is driven to be a lifetime-long slave of his software paying endlessly , like a ball and chain relationship , not ethical at all!
And you have not the right to sell the "never being bug free" software , you have payed thousands but have nothing!
That makes using cracked software an attractive solution for the customer!
The customer is driven to be a lifetime-long slave of his software paying endlessly , like a ball and chain relationship , not ethical at all!
And you have not the right to sell the "never being bug free" software , you have payed thousands but have nothing!
That makes using cracked software an attractive solution for the customer!
Right, I think it's more than obvious why they don't disclose it.
It's kinda embarrassing to be very honest at this point, for everyone involved.
It's like buying and trying to compare opamps without any data.
Even for engineers that is totally useless.
I am no law expert (and obviously depending where you live) , but hiding any serious deficiencies or sometimes deficiencies in performance is against many regulations. (something I have to comply with as well on a daily basis).
But I guess here are the ridiculous chicken-egg stories very useful for them I guess.
From a consumer point of view, if a company claims in their datasheets like "verified by Klippel", they have the legal obligation to show that data to the customer when they ask for it.
Even when a study or research was done completely in-house, any company has the obligation to provide this data when that company uses certain claims.
If they don't, it's just a matter of writing an email to the right organizations and they will have a huge problem.
Many loudspeaker datasheets are borderline dubious about this at best.
Lolz
It's becoming a new verb at this point!
Well, this is always the tricky part, people that misinterpreted data.
Or worse, people that use certain systems, show the data publicly, but sometimes make mistakes (as wel all do as human beings) and put your product in bad daylight.
Btw, what I mean with "weird environment", is that it's kinda strange and complicated how stuff sometimes works in the OEM market. There can be a lot of man in between.
Or in the speaker world you very often see exactly the same driver designs (down to the freaking solder terminals).
I have no idea what the world behind it is. Makes you wonder if there are not just a handful of VERY big players (think; production many many millions) that basically produce the vast majority of things?
For example, Nubert speakers (never heart of as well) apparently use the same loudspeaker frame and baskets as Peerless, but they look totally different?
Also, in mechanical datasheet from Dayton the name Benny Jhu can be found.
Which leads to this website; http://www.stech-sz.com
But again, this might be as well as a middle man company, who knows?
Curious about 3rd party measurements as well as the SIG225-4 and SIG270-4.
I doubt there is any legal obligtion for full disclosure as long as you're not dealing with food, drugs, dangerous flaws in vehicles or other life-threatening objects. Loudspeaker manufactureing is, compared to many other industries, small and governments are not going to be highly motivated, if motivated at all, to investigate dubious claims about loudspeaker performance.
'Smoke and mirrors' is commonplace in advertising, or in the venacular of sales: '******** baffles brains'. 'New and Improved' is a common consumer item claim. Really? How? 'Best new comedy on TV'. And in the fine print 'for new comedies on Thursday evening in the seven pm EST slot'.
If you have some performance flaw in your manufactured item you'd be an idiot to mention it. But that's hardly criminal.
I don't know the regulations in North America that well, but in Europe this counts for anything you sell and claim on a product.
Doesn't matter if it's food or just a consumer product, as soon as you make a certain claim, you have to obligation to back this up with (tangible) data. Otherwise it's considered as false claims, which is a criminal offense even I think.
(could be that I am translating a few nuances the wrong way here btw)
So for example, a car that claims to go have a certain efficiency, or a battery life of a product.
Or for loudspeakers a certain max cone excursion (which is not always defined), or under what conditions the T/S were determined (which is VERY often nog specified).
The conditions of those claims can be even shown in a teeny tiny footnote, but as long as they can be found somehow.
So it doesn't matter if brand A determined it under different conditions than brand B, as long as it's clear how they determined it.
Like I said, I am not that familiair with North American law systems, but I think this also falls under some consumer protection act (FTC in US if I am not mistaken?).
I have seen very similar cases (even quite recently) for things like computer related stuff.
Most (western) countries have these acts for consumers;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_protection
In this case it falls under "the right to be informed".
Claiming things that can't be verified is spreading misinformation about the product.
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Looks like the new Martin Logan series employs them, if you're not in the mood for diy
https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/motion-foundation-f2
https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/motion-foundation-f2
Statement : When any of you is in doubt that investing in new drivers for a new speaker project and your girl friend is very sceptical pull out this audio brain balancer to set her in the right mood :
For me it is the perfect music! (TBells/ODawn/HRidge)
To hell with all this braindead money!
WE NEED LIFE !!!
For me it is the perfect music! (TBells/ODawn/HRidge)
To hell with all this braindead money!
WE NEED LIFE !!!
I'm gonna grab some of the 4" ones to play with.
I do have a wishlist of things I wish Dayton would make, and I've told them this in person to their product designers.
-3/4"-1" dome in waveguide larger than the nd25fw, and maybe better motor/dome material. I really like this tweeter but it kind of has a cheap sound to it that I can't put my finger on.
-3" dome mid. At least hivi has made one that the average person can afford. Haven't seen them used in anything yet.
I do have a wishlist of things I wish Dayton would make, and I've told them this in person to their product designers.
-3/4"-1" dome in waveguide larger than the nd25fw, and maybe better motor/dome material. I really like this tweeter but it kind of has a cheap sound to it that I can't put my finger on.
-3" dome mid. At least hivi has made one that the average person can afford. Haven't seen them used in anything yet.
I have two of the Sig150 arriving tomorrow. I'm not that talented at doing great measurements, but I can post what I get. Usually my frequency measurements end up having huge dips (probably from room reflections).
I plan to use them in a 3-way with 2x Dayton RS225-8 and SB Acoustics SB26CDC.
I plan to use them in a 3-way with 2x Dayton RS225-8 and SB Acoustics SB26CDC.
Hello Buddy! If you put the speaker up on an adjustable stativ you can use the microphone as a PZM (pressure zone mic) on the ceiling and get more resolution from a wider meas window .... a 6 to 5m room is better than 5 to 4m!
Simulate filter network & whole speaker with VituixCAD !!
Freeware : https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/Software.html
For measurements use REW freeware : https://kimmosaunisto.net/
good luck & TIA
Simulate filter network & whole speaker with VituixCAD !!
Freeware : https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/Software.html
For measurements use REW freeware : https://kimmosaunisto.net/
good luck & TIA
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What mic do you have? Some near field distortion measurements would be extremely nice to see.
I've got a Dayton UMM-6 for the mic, as well as a DATS v2 for impedance measurement.
VituixCAD is great, as is REW. Those, as well as WinISD for box simulation are my preferred tools
For improving your stereo sensation it is better to make some measurements in critical places : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-reinforcements-with-klippel-device.35255/
Klippel is an incredible tool to use for speaker development. There is a reason it is the industry standard. The problem with companies releasing all of their klippel data is that for 97% of buyers, it is useless data. The vast majority of people buying speakers are not going to understand any of the data at all. And on top of that, what it does is open up the gates for people who think they're gurus to misunderstand or misinterpret the data and push false narratives that eventually get parroted all over the internet by people who don't even know any better. I remember this happening back in the day with dumax and klippel data from Brahma xbl subwoofers, they would sometimes show a small dip in BL at the rest position and people on forums were losing their mind about it, even though it was literally inconsequential. Then competitor companies would come in and use that as ammo to market their own subwoofers.
I feel like I'm one of the few people on this forum who is actually developing their own speakers, and I would never in my life publically post all of the klippel data on my products. Maybe your basic BL(x), Kms, or Le(x), but that's it. It's too risky, and I don't need some clown trashing my products all over social media and creating a bad narrative over klippel data that he doesn't even understand.