Exhibit B, HiFi Tuning data sheets, measuring wire directionality in fuses.
http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf
http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf
I talked to a friend who has designed audio cables. Asked him about directionality of cable. He said there can be maybe a slight effect when the cables are first used, but if so it goes away pretty quickly with use. If that's so, seems to me it would likely only be noticeable on systems where phase inversion of both speakers produces an audible difference in sound. IOW, some correlated-noise might move from positive current peaks to negative current peaks, something like that. Maybe.
According to Audioquest following the adagio: If you can't sell confuse,
The dynamic intermodulation and associated ringing generated in the active electronics will be greatly reduced.
What a bunch of commercial nonsense, frankly I don't want to be convinced.
Hans
The dynamic intermodulation and associated ringing generated in the active electronics will be greatly reduced.
What a bunch of commercial nonsense, frankly I don't want to be convinced.
Hans
Mark, no offense, but your friend is wrong. Directionality is permanent. It’s created by the physical drawing of wire through a die. Like cryogenically treating cables, it’s an irreversible process. Of course the real test would have been if your friend was a PHD in physics and when you mentioned directionality he laughed so hard milk shot out of his nose.
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Hans is right. These guys don't know what they're talking about in terms of cause and effect. Neither do you. If you want credibility you have learn what technical words mean, and you need to be able to express a scientifically plausible hypothesis where the words are used correctly.
So what? He may not be as smart as you are. But you can’t see the Forest for the trees.
I frequently urge manufacturers not to offer explanations of anything or write white papers. That avoids having to get cherry picked by over zealous Uber skeptics.
I frequently urge manufacturers not to offer explanations of anything or write white papers. That avoids having to get cherry picked by over zealous Uber skeptics.
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You can't sell anything without a story. However, its better if the story is correct rather than BS. That's especially important when something is controversial.
BTW, if wire has directional correlated noise characteristics, it should be measurable.
While we're on the subject, just recalled John Curl told me about the silver wire they used to build Blowtorch and Vendetta preamps. IIRC, John told me about his friend, technician, and business partner, Bob Crump, who used to swear the silver wire was directional, although John couldn't hear it. According to John, Bob used to keep coils of it in his garage with AC power running through the wire for a long time, maybe months. Bob swore that fixed the directional effect. John also said one day the police came to Bob's house with a search warrant, looking for an indoor marijuana grow farm because of the high electricity usage. Said Bob took them out in the garage and showed them what he was doing and explained why. They left him alone after that.
BTW, if wire has directional correlated noise characteristics, it should be measurable.
While we're on the subject, just recalled John Curl told me about the silver wire they used to build Blowtorch and Vendetta preamps. IIRC, John told me about his friend, technician, and business partner, Bob Crump, who used to swear the silver wire was directional, although John couldn't hear it. According to John, Bob used to keep coils of it in his garage with AC power running through the wire for a long time, maybe months. Bob swore that fixed the directional effect. John also said one day the police came to Bob's house with a search warrant, looking for an indoor marijuana grow farm because of the high electricity usage. Said Bob took them out in the garage and showed them what he was doing and explained why. They left him alone after that.
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I am/was a good friend of Bob and John. Crump was right, all wire is directional. Any metal wire. You know, ‘cause of their crystalline lattice structure. Carbon wire is not. Lead wire is not. They are amorphous metals. I exhibited with John and Curl twice at CES early 2000s. Does that surprise you? Crump knew what he was listening to, unlike a lot of folks. That’s why Bob controlled the directionality for his TG Audio cables. Hel-loo! Directionality is not as controversial as some things. Lol I would be remiss if I didn’t say I demonstrated The Intelligent Chip for Bob and John at CES in 2005, the Year of the Chip. That was almost 20 years ago, quantum mechanics was not yet commonly uttered by audiophiles.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
we do artificial atoms right
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
we do artificial atoms right
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If the OP wishes, its possible that a null test could be used to assess wire directionality. In that case it might be necessary or helpful to run a DC bias current through one or both wires to see if any effect on excess noise as a function of DC current bias can be detected with the null tester. I will leave it at that, unless perhaps further interest in null testing is expressed by others. Also, probably better to do some simpler null testing experiments first before going for something potentially more complex.
Still accepting that conducting properties of crystalline metals may depend on the current direction, it does not automatically imply that the sonic properties are also influenced.
Most equipment driving an interlink cable like preamps, dacs and phono-preamps, will have a ca. 100R in series to the output to match the cables char. impedance, thereby preventing eventual reflections from interfering with the sound.
Change this resistor +/-10R to 90R or 110R, and you won't notice any difference.
I can measure resistance with an accuracy of +/- 10mOhm.
When measuring the several interlinks that I have, I can't get any significant differences when reversing the cable, so let's say that because of directionality the difference for a 75cm interlink is below 20mOhm.
When +/-10 Ohm series resistance does not make any difference, why should 0.02 Ohm be perceivable ?
So when it's possible to hear any difference caused by directivity, DC conductivity should not be seen as the cause.
Besides, what's better for the perceived sound, using the high or the low resistance direction ?
Now for to the two "Exhibits A and B".
A) The first from Audioquest is no prove at all, just words and with a most ridiculous explanation why (see #103)
B) The second concerns fuses, which is an interesting overview of general fuse properties.
Most fuses show insignificant differences in the sub promille range, insignificant because resistance values that are given with 1e-6 Ohm accuracy are hardly repeatable figures.
But a few fuses show deviations of several percent's and they could support the directionality properties a lot better, although it's not clear whether this is caused by the fuse wire material or the (solder) connection to the end cap.
Having used the average of 10 of the same fuses, taking out the best and the worst would have given the average value and the spread between them, it's a pitty they didn't.
Also interesting to know whether any of these fuse materials is used for interlinks and LS cables.
And that brings me to the point that in the sort of audio gear we are using, you will most likely just find fuses on the primary side where the current is reversing with either 50 or 60Hz.
So who should care about fuse directionality, I wouldn't know.
Current peaks in the fuses, caused by the audio signal as the fuse test mentions, will be hard to find in the fuse current, because the highest current they will see is at the moment that the diode bridge start connecting the secondary side to the power caps.
See attachment below taken from my main amp, red the main voltage and blue the voltage over a series resistance thus representing the current.
The shape of the image remains the same without and with playing music.
When measurements so far have never been able to really explain why different cables have differing sounds, I wonder if directionality can be measured with the null test, but it's certainly worth to give it a try.
Finalizing I would like to repeat Einstein:
Not everything that's important can be measured
And not everything that can be measured is important.
Hans
Most equipment driving an interlink cable like preamps, dacs and phono-preamps, will have a ca. 100R in series to the output to match the cables char. impedance, thereby preventing eventual reflections from interfering with the sound.
Change this resistor +/-10R to 90R or 110R, and you won't notice any difference.
I can measure resistance with an accuracy of +/- 10mOhm.
When measuring the several interlinks that I have, I can't get any significant differences when reversing the cable, so let's say that because of directionality the difference for a 75cm interlink is below 20mOhm.
When +/-10 Ohm series resistance does not make any difference, why should 0.02 Ohm be perceivable ?
So when it's possible to hear any difference caused by directivity, DC conductivity should not be seen as the cause.
Besides, what's better for the perceived sound, using the high or the low resistance direction ?
Now for to the two "Exhibits A and B".
A) The first from Audioquest is no prove at all, just words and with a most ridiculous explanation why (see #103)
B) The second concerns fuses, which is an interesting overview of general fuse properties.
Most fuses show insignificant differences in the sub promille range, insignificant because resistance values that are given with 1e-6 Ohm accuracy are hardly repeatable figures.
But a few fuses show deviations of several percent's and they could support the directionality properties a lot better, although it's not clear whether this is caused by the fuse wire material or the (solder) connection to the end cap.
Having used the average of 10 of the same fuses, taking out the best and the worst would have given the average value and the spread between them, it's a pitty they didn't.
Also interesting to know whether any of these fuse materials is used for interlinks and LS cables.
And that brings me to the point that in the sort of audio gear we are using, you will most likely just find fuses on the primary side where the current is reversing with either 50 or 60Hz.
So who should care about fuse directionality, I wouldn't know.
Current peaks in the fuses, caused by the audio signal as the fuse test mentions, will be hard to find in the fuse current, because the highest current they will see is at the moment that the diode bridge start connecting the secondary side to the power caps.
See attachment below taken from my main amp, red the main voltage and blue the voltage over a series resistance thus representing the current.
The shape of the image remains the same without and with playing music.
When measurements so far have never been able to really explain why different cables have differing sounds, I wonder if directionality can be measured with the null test, but it's certainly worth to give it a try.
Finalizing I would like to repeat Einstein:
Not everything that's important can be measured
And not everything that can be measured is important.
Hans
Attachments
How about the test is to run enough DC bias current through a cable to make it start to get warm, couple some audio in there too. Then measure the null tester output for noise with a broadband spectrum analyzer? Also look with an audio spectrum analyzer for widening of audio frequency spectral line skirts and or audio band noise floor level. Listen to null tester output too. Then reverse the DC current and repeat?
For fuses it may be there is noise burst fluctuating at 50Hz or 60Hz. Maybe the amplitude of bursts depends on current draw, which in turn varies audio power used to drive speakers. Then the noise would be somewhat audio signal correlated. Doesn't look like a spectral line on an FFT because its noise, not a fixed sine wav. Maybe a null test could show some difference depending on fuse orientation? Perhaps of filter cap charging current isn't identical on every rectifier pulse for some reason?
My only point is that if people have been trying to measure resistance, capacitance, inductance, HD/IMD and haven't found anything, maybe its because they are looking for the wrong things?
Also, the above is not to suggest that the only differences between cables has to do with noise. Probably other physical effects too, one example of which might be as sawyers described.
For fuses it may be there is noise burst fluctuating at 50Hz or 60Hz. Maybe the amplitude of bursts depends on current draw, which in turn varies audio power used to drive speakers. Then the noise would be somewhat audio signal correlated. Doesn't look like a spectral line on an FFT because its noise, not a fixed sine wav. Maybe a null test could show some difference depending on fuse orientation? Perhaps of filter cap charging current isn't identical on every rectifier pulse for some reason?
My only point is that if people have been trying to measure resistance, capacitance, inductance, HD/IMD and haven't found anything, maybe its because they are looking for the wrong things?
Also, the above is not to suggest that the only differences between cables has to do with noise. Probably other physical effects too, one example of which might be as sawyers described.
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I would like to congratulate hbc on how the thread is already elevating.
Also slightly of-topic I would like to know, if any one of you know of any global or local organisation for pseudo skeptics, that I could apply to join?
Cheers!
Also slightly of-topic I would like to know, if any one of you know of any global or local organisation for pseudo skeptics, that I could apply to join?
Cheers!
Thanks, it has been quite amusing at times, although interesting points have been raised over what intractable problems could be resolved if a truly functioning null test could be developed, things like directionality and the effect of DC bias, that I have pondered occasionally myself. I have some work to do, so may seem "offline" for a while, but I need to add some buffering and check frequency response of my null pot circuit, and I would like to box my transformer and do some more sanity checks on it. The main problem I have had is an imbalance of frequency response between channels, and that needs fixing. I am lightly tempted to try using mixing desk as my interface, as it has lots of adjustable channels with eq etc.
Comments meant for the Moderation Team are to be made via private conversation only. Others will be deleted.
I wonder whether connectors play a part in directionality, and whether new and clean connectors terminating a cable might explain (at least in part) that new cables sound better than the old ones they replace.
Time for anecdotal evidence. On the Vintage Wireless forum ( https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/index.php ) a couple of years ago, one of the posters was plagued by RF intrusion into his audio - a few radio stations were coming through. It turned out to be some dirt or corrosion on the old connectors - and that poor contact acted as a rectifier. Cleaning the (phono) connector on the cable and chassis cured the problem entirely.
Craig
Time for anecdotal evidence. On the Vintage Wireless forum ( https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/index.php ) a couple of years ago, one of the posters was plagued by RF intrusion into his audio - a few radio stations were coming through. It turned out to be some dirt or corrosion on the old connectors - and that poor contact acted as a rectifier. Cleaning the (phono) connector on the cable and chassis cured the problem entirely.
Craig
