The only way we could prove to be smarter than Mark Levinson (Daniel Hertz) is if we could sell the result for $100k or more. I think we'd fail miserably on that measure. ;-)
I disagree completely. I think that getting more clones built and into peoples houses then Daniel Hertz would be the measure of who is smarter. We would essentially be hacking is design/system.
Here is how I want to layout the challenge.
Part 1. Design a Clone of the Daniel Hertz Levinson M1. This includes designing the enclosure, port tuning and crossover as well as selecting matching drivers. This will show how valuable DIY speaker can be in saving money. Someone will build it for the simple fact that they will have the equivalent of a $100k speaker for a fraction of the cost. In fact a whole saleable product could be made by creating a flatpack kit of the clone (*hint hint www.diyaudio.com or Home page DIY Sound Group). If I wasn't in the middle of starting my own company right now I would consider doing this myself. The marketing is already there, you just need a flat pack version to capitalize on it.
Part 2. We work together to design a higher end diyaudio.com design. To do this we would have to objectively identify the original designs shortcomings and agree on ways to improve them. Much of this would require someone to first build a clone and take detailed measurements. Considering diffraction is the lowest hanging fruit of the design, one of the first problems would be deciding if this design would have the requirement of being made into a flat pack design or not. We could even make 2 higher end versions, one an all out custom build and the other a flat pack upgrade version.
I for one would love a clone of these speakers if I had the money right now for the drivers. Unfortunately I am in the middle of selling off a bunch of audio gear and it isn't moving very fast. Once it's gone thought I would definitely want a pair for myself.
Agree , poorly done IMO .....🙄
damn this world! 😀
Ahhh , it gets better and they're real
Nah Putin's stooge is in Washington playing golf ..... 😛
Interesting , using a speaker with a Qts of .7 in a ported enclosure ....
Who has a SEXY low diffraction 3D CAD design that whoops the boxy M1 and cult JBL 4345? Horn/waveguide + 10"/12" midbass + 18" woofer
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Mark Levinson stated that the Daniel Hertz M1 uses custom drivers. Attached T/S spreadsheet of high quality production 12" midbass. The M1, similar to the Geddes Summa, decided to create an audio illusion which includes room effects below the horn/baffle polar control (1600-normal 1800Hz-M1) frequency.
A 3-way M1-type design (woofer+midbass+CD/Heil) which uses a 12" midbass for high efficiency would have a few design decisions:
1) sealed volume midbass
2) ported/aperodic volume midbass
3) active Xover with equalization
4) passive Xover with port tuning options for passive room bass equalization
5) Low(<0.2) Qts 12" midbass to optimize tweeter sonic interface
6) medium(0.3-0.4) Qts midbass to optimze bass sonic interface
The Qtc=0.15 Beyma 12" midbass is an interesting solution for a large'ish low Qts sealed volume with active Xover that blends well with the CD/HEIL tweeter.(1)+(3)+(5) or (1)+(2aperodic)+(5). The 12P80Nd and 18P80Nd share Beyma's latest motors and cones.
The Qtc=0.29 18Sound 12MBW420 has a very light(33g) cone that makes it a good solution for passive Xovers. (1)+(4)+(6)
An underhung motor with similar T/S specs is possible, and would allow more Mms in the cone material, and waste less Mms in the voice coil.
=============
Mark Levinson stated that the Daniel Hertz M1 uses custom drivers. Attached T/S spreadsheet of high quality production 12" midbass. The M1, similar to the Geddes Summa, decided to create an audio illusion which includes room effects below the horn/baffle polar control (1600-normal 1800Hz-M1) frequency.
A 3-way M1-type design (woofer+midbass+CD/Heil) which uses a 12" midbass for high efficiency would have a few design decisions:
1) sealed volume midbass
2) ported/aperodic volume midbass
3) active Xover with equalization
4) passive Xover with port tuning options for passive room bass equalization
5) Low(<0.2) Qts 12" midbass to optimize tweeter sonic interface
6) medium(0.3-0.4) Qts midbass to optimze bass sonic interface
The Qtc=0.15 Beyma 12" midbass is an interesting solution for a large'ish low Qts sealed volume with active Xover that blends well with the CD/HEIL tweeter.(1)+(3)+(5) or (1)+(2aperodic)+(5). The 12P80Nd and 18P80Nd share Beyma's latest motors and cones.
The Qtc=0.29 18Sound 12MBW420 has a very light(33g) cone that makes it a good solution for passive Xovers. (1)+(4)+(6)
An underhung motor with similar T/S specs is possible, and would allow more Mms in the cone material, and waste less Mms in the voice coil.
Attachments
Its an interesting project and when I am finished with the actual Subwooferstuff then maybe someting to continue with.
In general I would say a 100.000 US or around 75.000 EU for such a Speaker is as overpriced as nearly 99% of all products in this marketrange.
Its not a magicans work to combine these three drivers and a well done enclosure to a working combination!
Let me say one thing about Mark Levinson.
I do meet him several times in person when I have had my first Job in the Audio Industrie in the late 70ties, working for the German MarkLevinson Distributor at that time!
He was a very kind and charismatic person, someone with ideas and philosophies but he was never a developer, not an Electronicdeveloper or a Loudspeakerdeveloper.
The developers that worked for and with him are surely well known Names in the Audioindustrie like Richard Burwen, John Curl and the sadly passed away Tom Collangelo. These guys are the minds behind the Magic of the name Mark Levinson, Mark himself is the Idea, the search for the best Reproductionperformance.
In general I would say a 100.000 US or around 75.000 EU for such a Speaker is as overpriced as nearly 99% of all products in this marketrange.
Its not a magicans work to combine these three drivers and a well done enclosure to a working combination!
Let me say one thing about Mark Levinson.
I do meet him several times in person when I have had my first Job in the Audio Industrie in the late 70ties, working for the German MarkLevinson Distributor at that time!
He was a very kind and charismatic person, someone with ideas and philosophies but he was never a developer, not an Electronicdeveloper or a Loudspeakerdeveloper.
The developers that worked for and with him are surely well known Names in the Audioindustrie like Richard Burwen, John Curl and the sadly passed away Tom Collangelo. These guys are the minds behind the Magic of the name Mark Levinson, Mark himself is the Idea, the search for the best Reproductionperformance.
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What makes the 12p80nd more attractive than the 12mwnd? Also, the Kappalite 3012HO, while not being very exciting, seems to have really good numbers, having low LE, decent mms, and proven distortion numbers that get almost as low as the AEtd12m. It is also the driver that Zilch liked the most in his econowave wanderings.
When I first saw it I thought it's 10k not 100k, I said - hey now that's how a 10k speaker should look like. Then I saw the extra zero. 🙂
There's no reason for a DIY-er to stick to one huge box like this and those tacky driver rings, burn them with fire. I can't believe they're actually a selling point on their website, people stick felt pads on the baffle for better dispersion and these guys stick chrome rings and brag about them.
I say build separate modules, use a bigger horn for the compression driver or the beyma AMT in a custom horn and have the option for active. Then pocket the (9)5k.
There's no reason for a DIY-er to stick to one huge box like this and those tacky driver rings, burn them with fire. I can't believe they're actually a selling point on their website, people stick felt pads on the baffle for better dispersion and these guys stick chrome rings and brag about them.
I say build separate modules, use a bigger horn for the compression driver or the beyma AMT in a custom horn and have the option for active. Then pocket the (9)5k.
I have heard from a Beyma distributor that the DH M1 use the 12B100/R for the midrange. This driver is part of their Studio series and has an Fs of 29 Hz and a Qts of 0.30.
Thats funny. Thats what Mark Levinson answered me :
Loudspeakers $20k and Up at CES 2014 | The Absolute Sound
marklevinson Angelo Grasso
• 4 days ago
I am not familiar with the Beyma. Where can I get info? I appreciate your thinking of us. Actually, we use a hand built custom driver with a 4" voice coil with 115dB sensitivity and 134dB SPL capability (limited to 126dB in our system). So far, the best we have tested. Always open to new solutions. By the way, our drivers are proprietary and we make a custom mahogany horn for the HF compression driver. At this point, the most serious limiting factors are the recordings and the PCM format.
Loudspeakers $20k and Up at CES 2014 | The Absolute Sound
marklevinson Angelo Grasso
• 4 days ago
I am not familiar with the Beyma. Where can I get info? I appreciate your thinking of us. Actually, we use a hand built custom driver with a 4" voice coil with 115dB sensitivity and 134dB SPL capability (limited to 126dB in our system). So far, the best we have tested. Always open to new solutions. By the way, our drivers are proprietary and we make a custom mahogany horn for the HF compression driver. At this point, the most serious limiting factors are the recordings and the PCM format.
I guess it was LineSource who suggested using Beyma drivers to clone this, it was just an educated guess?
DH is ugly. Avalon Isis, Marten or even Magico Q series should be used as visual guideline instead. BC, Beyma, JBL or some other major pro-loudspeaker line can be used. Beyma's have reasonable price.
DH is ugly. Avalon Isis, Marten or even Magico Q series should be used as visual guideline instead. BC, Beyma, JBL or some other major pro-loudspeaker line can be used. Beyma's have reasonable price.
Did you ever reach an opinion / conclusion as to which drivers were used in the Daniel Hertz M1 Loudspeaker?
I don't think it really matters what speaker units it employs. You can choose among many high quality brand name units and build one alike or close to one. In a DIY manner to come close to a piano finish like that would be a great challenge in itself. I think this kind of a project ought to be actively (DSP) equalized all the way with an efficient (steep) sub frequencies HP and a Linkwitz Transform.
Beyma 18P80nd could be the bass but its not ribbed
Beyma 12P80nd bass-mid
Beyma CP385nd CD
Beyma TD164 horn
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Don't think the Bass-mid is the Beyma 12P80nd
Here is the cone of this unit, which has a triple roll surround and a smooth cone.
Here is the Bass-mid from the Daniel Hertz M1 with double roll surround and ribbed cone.
Just googled images for the M1 and I found 3 distinct versions:
1) 18" & 12" ribbed
2) 18" ribbed 12" smooth
3) 18" & 12" smooth
Some were black and some had wood veneer sides.
Clearly there is no consistency in drivers used beyond size.
1) 18" & 12" ribbed
2) 18" ribbed 12" smooth
3) 18" & 12" smooth
Some were black and some had wood veneer sides.
Clearly there is no consistency in drivers used beyond size.
"Ribbed for her(listening) pleasure"
For a 1,600Hz crossover, I would not select a 12" midrange with a ribbed cone.
I would select a smooth modern curve-linear cone shape, long fiber paper with carbon fibers and a heat-set plastic coating.
I suspect the ribbed cone 12" midrange is the reason the M1 must use a 40-degree horizontal and 60-degree vertical horn arrangement, instead of 60-degree horzontal.
Since the M1 is built in Switzerland, German and Italian vendors
Beyma has the 12P80NdV2 with a flat SPL over a wide bandwidth
BMS has the 12N820
18Sound has the 12ND930
For a 1,600Hz crossover, I would not select a 12" midrange with a ribbed cone.
I would select a smooth modern curve-linear cone shape, long fiber paper with carbon fibers and a heat-set plastic coating.
I suspect the ribbed cone 12" midrange is the reason the M1 must use a 40-degree horizontal and 60-degree vertical horn arrangement, instead of 60-degree horzontal.
Since the M1 is built in Switzerland, German and Italian vendors
Beyma has the 12P80NdV2 with a flat SPL over a wide bandwidth
BMS has the 12N820
18Sound has the 12ND930
Also found some DH M7 and M9.
2way speakers using the same horn as the M1. They are probably the most uneconomic Econowaves in the world. 😀
2way speakers using the same horn as the M1. They are probably the most uneconomic Econowaves in the world. 😀