Ok, finally an update on a little progress. As mentioned above, Dave of Planet 10 was nice enough to make a very professional-looking diagram for me, showing how I could bi-amp these speakers, without losing the option to use the cross-over Curt designed, despite the cross-over being serial between woofers and Alpair. The cross-overs were pre-assembled by Madisound, but the diagram was a little rough, so I had quite a time figuring out exactly how to convert Dave's diagram into reality.
The cross-over will be mounted to the bottom of the speaker, hanging upside down, in a 4" riser box under the speakers.
I decided to wire it in such a way that if you put left and right into the upper pair of binding posts, and another set into the lower pair (of a 4-post pocket), hook those pairs up to separate amps, you would have the bi-amp scenario.
In order to use the passive crossover, I decided to create a 4-wire cable, with Speak-on at one end and 4 banana plugs at the other end, to connect the same 4-post pocket to the cross-over box. A separate pair of input jacks in the crossover box would receive input from the stereo amp.
The cross-over will be mounted to the bottom of the speaker, hanging upside down, in a 4" riser box under the speakers.
I decided to wire it in such a way that if you put left and right into the upper pair of binding posts, and another set into the lower pair (of a 4-post pocket), hook those pairs up to separate amps, you would have the bi-amp scenario.
In order to use the passive crossover, I decided to create a 4-wire cable, with Speak-on at one end and 4 banana plugs at the other end, to connect the same 4-post pocket to the cross-over box. A separate pair of input jacks in the crossover box would receive input from the stereo amp.
Attachments
A sideways comment: You could have spent less and gotten better 5-way posts (opinion of course, based on experience). Otherwise looks good. The Speak-ons are an excellent choice in this situation.
dave
dave
I don’t like that they have so much. All to often cheap ones with plastic nuts outperform them/
If you want, there are (at least should be) connectors like on the NAIMs & Quads (at least old ones) that are flush.
Something like these:
Gold Plated Binding Post Banana Jack Pair
I can’t find the 5-wau posts that
PE has/had that i like, but these, althou aimed more at amps, are OK,
w.parts-express.com/parts-express-dual-binding-post-banana-jack-1-red-1-black--090-475
They can also be found gold plated.
ConneX Connector Dual Binding Posts 5-Way Hex Head
These are better, and we use them often:
ConneX Connector Dual Binding Posts 5-Way Slot
Thes \e what we typically use on speakers:
McBride TC14 - Terminal Cup
The ones from PE i was looking for were the same post son a small, simple plate.
To get much better (and spend much more money) you have to go to the Eichmann (now ETI)
Binding Post BP-50C - Loudspeaker & Amplifier Connector - ETI Research
or WBT NextGen (these the cheap ones)
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/wbt-binding-posts/wbt-0708cu-nextgen-economy-binding-post-red/
dave
If you want, there are (at least should be) connectors like on the NAIMs & Quads (at least old ones) that are flush.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Something like these:
Gold Plated Binding Post Banana Jack Pair
I can’t find the 5-wau posts that
PE has/had that i like, but these, althou aimed more at amps, are OK,
w.parts-express.com/parts-express-dual-binding-post-banana-jack-1-red-1-black--090-475
They can also be found gold plated.
ConneX Connector Dual Binding Posts 5-Way Hex Head
These are better, and we use them often:
ConneX Connector Dual Binding Posts 5-Way Slot
Thes \e what we typically use on speakers:
McBride TC14 - Terminal Cup
The ones from PE i was looking for were the same post son a small, simple plate.
To get much better (and spend much more money) you have to go to the Eichmann (now ETI)
Binding Post BP-50C - Loudspeaker & Amplifier Connector - ETI Research
or WBT NextGen (these the cheap ones)
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/wbt-binding-posts/wbt-0708cu-nextgen-economy-binding-post-red/
dave
Wow! $41 per post, $82 for the pair. And they go to great lengths to explain that that is the inexpensive one.
Except for the ConneX, most of those are for sheet metal chassis, it looks like. My problem is that I have to go through 0.5 inches of wood. So I think it's either the ConneX or use something like the McBride terminal cup you suggested. Maybe I'll do that, and just cut out a bigger hole. That would look a lot nicer. Thanks for the suggestions.
Except for the ConneX, most of those are for sheet metal chassis, it looks like. My problem is that I have to go through 0.5 inches of wood. So I think it's either the ConneX or use something like the McBride terminal cup you suggested. Maybe I'll do that, and just cut out a bigger hole. That would look a lot nicer. Thanks for the suggestions.
The ETIs are $80 per pair also. I'd love to see some focus group study showing people could hear the difference. Real life, not on some laboratory apparatus.
Those are the cheap WBT. A client sent a 2 pair of the middle tier ones (something like $120/pr) for his standmount A12pWeN custom builds. Nice, but so large we were unable to meet our desire to have industry standard 3/4” spacing (he didn’t care about that).
That is the only retail outlet i have found those at, choosen to meet our desire to not have anything stick ou tof th box, for the small cutout needed (not important for your XO box) and for the plastic nutted posts.
We bought them a couple 100 at a time from GOldwood. I have some left that i can supply (ON is locked down and i am not sure if McBride is moving anything out, and i am ceasing to do hardware). Postage would be more than a pair. email me if you want to talk.
dave
That is the only retail outlet i have found those at, choosen to meet our desire to not have anything stick ou tof th box, for the small cutout needed (not important for your XO box) and for the plastic nutted posts.
We bought them a couple 100 at a time from GOldwood. I have some left that i can supply (ON is locked down and i am not sure if McBride is moving anything out, and i am ceasing to do hardware). Postage would be more than a pair. email me if you want to talk.
dave
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It is, but we now prefer the term WAW (Woofer Assisted Widerange) as it masts much more sense.
A FR used as a midTweeter, with helper woofer(s) XOed (typically in the 150-450 Hz range.
dave
I would stay away from those. Too much metal.
I recently posted a good bit on binding posts, i’ll have to se eif i can find it (actually i think it wa sfor Alan in another thread?). Unfortunately PE no longer sells theri best inexpensive good ones. People, i guess, go for this kind of bling.
As well, it is not a good idea to put posts thru the wood, you need to be able to easily remove them.
dave
The McBride cups you described are on Amazon. At least I think they are the same.
Goldwood Sound Speaker Box Terminal Cups 2 Round Power Speaker Terminal Plates Black (RGT-5000-2) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071DHBSYW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_NVMPEb7A2T3XA
Goldwood Sound Speaker Box Terminal Cups 2 Round Power Speaker Terminal Plates Black (RGT-5000-2) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071DHBSYW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_NVMPEb7A2T3XA
Same cups, wrong posts. The nuts should be plastic (red & black), Goldwood is the right brand. $11 USD is pricey.
Me not a big Amazon fan.
dave
Me not a big Amazon fan.
dave
alanhuth,
Don't sweat too much on the binding posts. The ones that you have will work fine and it's more important to get to the listening stage.
The Amazon link for the Goldwood posts - that's for a pair? Then $9.99 is not that high, and you can get free shipping to if you have Amazon Prime membership. Those will work fine too.
Don't sweat too much on the binding posts. The ones that you have will work fine and it's more important to get to the listening stage.
The Amazon link for the Goldwood posts - that's for a pair? Then $9.99 is not that high, and you can get free shipping to if you have Amazon Prime membership. Those will work fine too.
I have a couple of those purple tweeters in my give away pile. A fellow in WA says they work well horn loaded.
dave
With a lower XO point, phase issues should decrease, as the driver’s centre-to-centre become smaller relative to the XO frequency. Once you hit 1/4 wavelength the drivers become essentially coincident.
In this box the large distance from the midTweeter to the bottom woofer makes the XO point a compromise in that respect.
In our big (and simplier) ML-TL WAW you can see how hard we worked to get the driver’s as close together as possible (i did need to move the woofers 10mm further apart with the next revision for ease of construction).
dave
Adding helper woofers, of any sort (given they are decent), can bring substantial benefits, both in terms of bass extension and impact, and improvements midTop as the FR is relieved of bass duties (as much as budget can accomodate, cost of woofers usually dwarfs that of the FR). Getting the XO out of the way becomes the biggest issue.
You being in India, the best choice of woofers, is those that you can get your hand's on. The same for everyone else. With the huge number of midBasses designed for more typical M+T, the choices are myriad. And since they are being cut off so low, one can often avoid the mosr serious failings of these midBasses.
The number of decent WAW designs is still small and there is huge room for more experimentation in all sorts of prices. If you can biamp experimentation becomes much simplier (getting passive XOs right is hard work).
The ones i pictured above i would classify as pricey, Tysen V2 is designed to be much more affordable. The uFonken/uMar-Ken + woofer stands hit the mid ground. And the ideas still keep flowing. Now working on a compact A12pw/A5.2/3 design.
dave
I am waiting for Alan to finish his build and initial sound impression. The person who designed this speaker is well known for his work and i have heard he can really play well with passive crossover components. Dave has rightly pointed out about WAW. The possibility to produce combinations choosing different woofers and XO points gives wide array of choices. But cost and availability always will be deciding factors for most of the DIYers.