ujju3doc, I'm afraid I may be a disappointment to you. I am FAR from a perceptive listening person in terms of giving sound impressions. I would not consider myself an audiophile at all. No hearing over 9k, probably, and I can't hear the difference between tube and solid-state in the comparison videos on youtube (which everybody else says are well-recorded and the differences are discernible). If anybody on this thread lives in the Chicago area and would like to audition them, let me know. They should be ready to go in the next week or two.
The only thing I can offer is that I will be able to tell you, with some certainty, I believe, how these Halcyons sound compared to the incumbents:
Bower & Wilkins DM603 S3
FrugelHorn with Alpair 10p (~20 hours so far)
and TriTrix
The source will be FLAC via JRiver through MiniDSP SHD
Amps will be Adcom GFA5500, 2xAmp Camp 1.0, 2xHypex NC400, IcePower ASC200/AC200
Some day, the parts I have collected will be assembled into an Aleph J, but not soon
Bower & Wilkins DM603 S3
FrugelHorn with Alpair 10p (~20 hours so far)
and TriTrix
The source will be FLAC via JRiver through MiniDSP SHD
Amps will be Adcom GFA5500, 2xAmp Camp 1.0, 2xHypex NC400, IcePower ASC200/AC200
Some day, the parts I have collected will be assembled into an Aleph J, but not soon
Which are crap even when amongst the best, and convolved with so much else it is not possible tease out the different gear puportably being compared.
Illinois is, smartly, stil one of the states with significant restrictions so the speakers may be ready, but the state may not be ready for people to visit.
dave
Yes, I believe we are in the top 5 of corrupt states in the country. Cook County (Chicago) is the corrupt part, along with Springfield. The rest of the state might as well be a different state. People are leaving Illinois at one of the highest rates. You may wonder why I jump from lock-down to corruption. It's not that big a leap.
Illinois saw nation’s worst population loss during the decade
Illinois saw nation’s worst population loss during the decade
Well... First of all... You need not worry about myself being disappointed. DIY audio is passion for us and we keep learning every day.
I have Alpair 10p pensils. I listen to various types of music among which indian music covers a large part. Lots of percussion, string instruments and flutes are used regularly in indian music and i really enjoy the way they are reproduced by Alpair 10p pensils. The depth of lower frequencies (bass extension) and beautiful mids are very pleasing to my ears.
For the same reasons which i mention about Pensils...I am very curious about Halcyon and FHXL. I think previously you have built FHXL and now you are trying to finish Halcyon build.
I love the transparent coherent sound of the pensils .. what i want now is little more bass extension and some tactile low end. Improvement in stage and dynamics are also my target.
Naturally you can understand why i am waiting for your impressions ..you can help me to decide which should be my next project... Halcyon or FHXL.
All the best to finish your present project soon..
Ujjwal
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I will really like to hear comparison of Halcyon with the speakers you named...
It will definitely help me to have some idea about sound signature of the Halcyon speakers
I am, also anxious to hear your comments. My top three choices are a FHXL, Pensil, or the Halcyon for my pair of A10p's.
My listening choices extend to organ music and the Halcyon may hold its own better in the lower octaves. Also waiting for the pandemic to clear a little so I can get a flat-pack of which-ever one from bobberner.
-davidBTW
(Anxious in Murray, UT)
My listening choices extend to organ music and the Halcyon may hold its own better in the lower octaves. Also waiting for the pandemic to clear a little so I can get a flat-pack of which-ever one from bobberner.
-davidBTW
(Anxious in Murray, UT)
Any well done WAW will have more bass impact (and better midtop given the relief of the FR) than the FR alone in one of the better boxes. At the compromise of probably some 4x the cost.
I know that all of our builds make no excuses (2 of which the plans can be purchased and have passives if you cannot biamp), and both Scott & i are as helpful as we can if one wants to strike out on their own, WAWs are a greatly unexplored part of the speaker world.
The Halcyon has a number of design choices i would not make… the biggest of which is the big driver separation (likely caused by the convoluted ML-TL). Bu tif it works for someone who cares.
dave
I know that all of our builds make no excuses (2 of which the plans can be purchased and have passives if you cannot biamp), and both Scott & i are as helpful as we can if one wants to strike out on their own, WAWs are a greatly unexplored part of the speaker world.
The Halcyon has a number of design choices i would not make… the biggest of which is the big driver separation (likely caused by the convoluted ML-TL). Bu tif it works for someone who cares.
dave
I chose the crossover frequency for very specific reasons to optimize phase coherence and driver integration. As you all know, any speaker is made up of a series of compromises. Optimizing one design parameter will invariably create a complication somewhere else. The designer chooses what he feels results in the best design for the parameters most important to him, and what he feels provides the most optimized design for those parameters.
My criteria for the Halcyon was to design a speaker that optimized the following parameters:
-Retained the signature sound and acoustic phase characteristics of a single full range driver by utilizing a first order series crossover.
-Optimized the operation of the full range driver, by limiting its excursion, potentially reducing its distortion.
-Increased the low end frequency response over the full range driver alone, using a merged mass loaded transmission line to enhance the bass extension.
-Utilize a narrow baffle, merged, mass loaded transmission line configuration that exhibited a relatively small enclosure footprint.
-Use an optimized tunnel enclosure to minimize standing waves, reduce reflections and distortion, and provide a more spatial sound.
A first order crossover causes the least amount of transient aberrations, and adds little or no phase rotation. These are useful properties when one is trying to integrate 3 drivers to sound as one larger full range. The down side is it requires 2 to 3 octaves of flat response either side of the crossover frequency in order to sum with first order acoustic slopes. The Alpair starts rolling off below 100 Hz with the expected 2nd order acoustic roll off. Consequently a first order electrical crossover to the woofers at 100 Hz would not exhibit a first order acoustic transfer function but a third order. Crossing to the woofers at 400 Hz, gives us 2 octaves of flat response before the acoustic roll off of the driver starts in so we maintain an approximate 1st order crossover and a stop band attenuation of approximately -15 dB at 100 Hz. At higher frequencies, the SB17RNX woofer remain flat until 3 kHz, so 400 Hz was a reasonable crossover frequency nearly equidistant between the driver limits. Since the Alpair and the SB woofers are both paper, I was confident they would exhibit very similar tonality, and harmonic distortion showed similar performance as well. -And with the more than 4 octaves of overlap, they integrated seamlessly.
An additional benefit of the 400 Hz crossover was minimizing the cone excursion of the Alpair. In spite of its high Xmax, in an open back configuration similar to the Halcyon, it reaches its 7mm Xmax around 50 Hz at its power limit of 30 watts. Now, not everyone will be listening at 104 dB SPL, but depending on the crest factor of the music, transients of that high could be met or exceeded when listening at a much more sedate level. A first order high pass filter at 400 Hz reduces the maximum cone excursion at that level to less than 1.0 mm. While I'm sure the Alpair is a well designed driver, operating at the limits of its excursion will almost certainly exhibit more distortion than if it is operating at lower excursions. Presuming the power limitation is a thermal limitation, and further postulating that 50% of the energy of typical music lies below 350 Hz, The Alpair models to now reproduce 107 dB SPL without exceeding its thermal limitation.
My preference for the Halcyon to use a MLTL in a unique way in my chosen enclosure shape and volume left the design with a potential issue: The driver spacing between especially the lower woofer and the Alpair. This spacing will cause some lobing in the vertical axis.
As it has been a while since I designed this speaker, I did a little modeling to verify my previous decisions. I chose the frequencies roughly 2 octaves either side of the crossover frequency that provided what appeared to be the nastiest modeled polar response. The issues with the vertical lobing due to the driver spacing is relatively benign from roughly 0 degrees to -15 degrees vertically. Certainly similar performance to many conventional designs with vertically displaced drivers. Tilting the speakers back by a few degrees may be useful, but I must admit I heard no audible issues when listening to them standing without tilt. Feel free to tilt them as deemed necessary. This should further ameliorate any vertical polar response concerns.
I could have changed the woofer orientation on the baffle and ameliorated this issue. Ultimately however, I wanted to try something a bit more out of the norm from a typical vented enclosure. The merged MLTL emerged as the chosen design for its positive attributes, in spite of its effect on the vertical polar response.
C
My criteria for the Halcyon was to design a speaker that optimized the following parameters:
-Retained the signature sound and acoustic phase characteristics of a single full range driver by utilizing a first order series crossover.
-Optimized the operation of the full range driver, by limiting its excursion, potentially reducing its distortion.
-Increased the low end frequency response over the full range driver alone, using a merged mass loaded transmission line to enhance the bass extension.
-Utilize a narrow baffle, merged, mass loaded transmission line configuration that exhibited a relatively small enclosure footprint.
-Use an optimized tunnel enclosure to minimize standing waves, reduce reflections and distortion, and provide a more spatial sound.
A first order crossover causes the least amount of transient aberrations, and adds little or no phase rotation. These are useful properties when one is trying to integrate 3 drivers to sound as one larger full range. The down side is it requires 2 to 3 octaves of flat response either side of the crossover frequency in order to sum with first order acoustic slopes. The Alpair starts rolling off below 100 Hz with the expected 2nd order acoustic roll off. Consequently a first order electrical crossover to the woofers at 100 Hz would not exhibit a first order acoustic transfer function but a third order. Crossing to the woofers at 400 Hz, gives us 2 octaves of flat response before the acoustic roll off of the driver starts in so we maintain an approximate 1st order crossover and a stop band attenuation of approximately -15 dB at 100 Hz. At higher frequencies, the SB17RNX woofer remain flat until 3 kHz, so 400 Hz was a reasonable crossover frequency nearly equidistant between the driver limits. Since the Alpair and the SB woofers are both paper, I was confident they would exhibit very similar tonality, and harmonic distortion showed similar performance as well. -And with the more than 4 octaves of overlap, they integrated seamlessly.
An additional benefit of the 400 Hz crossover was minimizing the cone excursion of the Alpair. In spite of its high Xmax, in an open back configuration similar to the Halcyon, it reaches its 7mm Xmax around 50 Hz at its power limit of 30 watts. Now, not everyone will be listening at 104 dB SPL, but depending on the crest factor of the music, transients of that high could be met or exceeded when listening at a much more sedate level. A first order high pass filter at 400 Hz reduces the maximum cone excursion at that level to less than 1.0 mm. While I'm sure the Alpair is a well designed driver, operating at the limits of its excursion will almost certainly exhibit more distortion than if it is operating at lower excursions. Presuming the power limitation is a thermal limitation, and further postulating that 50% of the energy of typical music lies below 350 Hz, The Alpair models to now reproduce 107 dB SPL without exceeding its thermal limitation.
My preference for the Halcyon to use a MLTL in a unique way in my chosen enclosure shape and volume left the design with a potential issue: The driver spacing between especially the lower woofer and the Alpair. This spacing will cause some lobing in the vertical axis.
As it has been a while since I designed this speaker, I did a little modeling to verify my previous decisions. I chose the frequencies roughly 2 octaves either side of the crossover frequency that provided what appeared to be the nastiest modeled polar response. The issues with the vertical lobing due to the driver spacing is relatively benign from roughly 0 degrees to -15 degrees vertically. Certainly similar performance to many conventional designs with vertically displaced drivers. Tilting the speakers back by a few degrees may be useful, but I must admit I heard no audible issues when listening to them standing without tilt. Feel free to tilt them as deemed necessary. This should further ameliorate any vertical polar response concerns.
I could have changed the woofer orientation on the baffle and ameliorated this issue. Ultimately however, I wanted to try something a bit more out of the norm from a typical vented enclosure. The merged MLTL emerged as the chosen design for its positive attributes, in spite of its effect on the vertical polar response.
C
Explained thoroughly.. thanks Curt. I was thinking for a long time about a design of using a small full range driver ( isolated from the woofer) and a woofer( min 8 inch) with low mass for a cleaner and fast bass response. The woofer can be housed in tapered TL enclosure calculating from its resonant frequency. As we will be using a single woofer...driver separation can be done according to requirements. A simple 1st order crossover in the range of 200 to 400 hz ..like the one as Curt had designed will suit the purpose.
I like the sound of single medium sized full range driver in a suitable cabinet.. I loved the texture and tonality of the mids and clean transparent way of low end with good transients. But always wanted enhancement of low end by 15 to 20 percent.
It can be achieved i guess by increasing the driver size ..but that will impose other issues and some problems.
Hence a low mass( Mmd) woofer came into my mind for similar low end texture of full range driver and which will help to reduce the distortion of the small full range driver ( basically a WAW) by reducing its excursion.
Design of the crossover( passive) will need skill and experience and Curt has wizardry in that field.
Just my thoughts... Others can put their inputs. I guess there might be existing similar design which i dont know of...
I like the sound of single medium sized full range driver in a suitable cabinet.. I loved the texture and tonality of the mids and clean transparent way of low end with good transients. But always wanted enhancement of low end by 15 to 20 percent.
It can be achieved i guess by increasing the driver size ..but that will impose other issues and some problems.
Hence a low mass( Mmd) woofer came into my mind for similar low end texture of full range driver and which will help to reduce the distortion of the small full range driver ( basically a WAW) by reducing its excursion.
Design of the crossover( passive) will need skill and experience and Curt has wizardry in that field.
Just my thoughts... Others can put their inputs. I guess there might be existing similar design which i dont know of...
I guess that means I should be providing an update. Not much to talk about at the moment. I changed the binding posts to a cup, which looks much better IMHO, and probably safer as the posts no longer stick out so far. Dave won't like that they have a lot of metal in them. Also, I glued the double baffles on. Pix soon. Planning to accelerate this process this week. Sorry to everybody anxious to see how these turn out.
And big THANK YOU to Curt for weighing in. Very interesting. You have done more work on this thread than I have in the last few weeks.
And big THANK YOU to Curt for weighing in. Very interesting. You have done more work on this thread than I have in the last few weeks.