poobah said:
Yah, he has no vested interest, does he.
Moray...in the english language, extreem should be "extreme",
perminant should be "permanent".
precieved should be perceived.
I do not know your home language spellings, but that I believe is the correct spelling in english.
Netlist: I believe you are responding to my init post, which I edited to be nicer prior to your posting..My apologies to Moray for those init words, they were inappropriate..so I changed it.
Cheers, John
PS..it is because of this type of moderation that I enjoy this forum most of all..
JSA, (post 120) I am relying on listening opinions of my peers, but I am pretty sure that true cryoing is permanent, but simply freezing in a deepfreeze is only temporary. Jneutron has no experience in what we would look for, if we were to try to establish listening changes. In fact, once one cryo cycle is done, it should stay that way, even at room temperature.
Again referring to Hummel: "The residual resistivity p(res) is interpreted to be due to imperfections in the crystal, such as impurities, vacancies, gain boundaries or dislocations. The residual resistivity is essentially not temperature dependent. According to Matthiessen's rule the resistivity arises from independent scattering processes which are additive, ..." pp. 84-85 'Electronic Propeties of Materials' 2'nd edition.
Again referring to Hummel: "The residual resistivity p(res) is interpreted to be due to imperfections in the crystal, such as impurities, vacancies, gain boundaries or dislocations. The residual resistivity is essentially not temperature dependent. According to Matthiessen's rule the resistivity arises from independent scattering processes which are additive, ..." pp. 84-85 'Electronic Propeties of Materials' 2'nd edition.
We'll trust that you at least know more about something than you do jneutron.
And that would be?
This is apparently an extract from a longer discourse on the temperature dependencies of resistivity of materials... is there a point?
Cry-o-ing
JSA, (post 120) I am relying on listening opinions of my peers, but I am pretty sure that true cryoing is permanent, but simply freezing in a deepfreeze is only temporary. Jneutron has no experience in what we would look for, if we were to try to establish listening changes. In fact, once one cryo cycle is done, it should stay that way, even at room temperature.
...and what "listening changes" are you looking for? Opinions of changes aren't 'real" changes applicable to the public at large.. only to those expressing them.
Again referring to Hummel: "The residual resistivity p(res) is interpreted to be due to imperfections in the crystal, such as impurities, vacancies, gain boundaries or dislocations. The residual resistivity is essentially not temperature dependent. According to Matthiessen's rule the resistivity arises from independent scattering processes which are additive, ..." pp. 84-85 'Electronic Propeties of Materials' 2'nd edition.
What point does this excerpt address... if residual resistivity is independent of temp. what good does cryoing (your term) do? Cryogenic exposure does not "heal" imperfections, as seems to be what is implied. Again, any property changes induced by temperature change in metals are governed by exponential arrhenius processes, thus they would occur at much slower rates than at room temperature. Annealing is a trivial example of such a process.
auplater
auplater
JSA, (post 120) I am relying on listening opinions of my peers, but I am pretty sure that true cryoing is permanent, but simply freezing in a deepfreeze is only temporary. Jneutron has no experience in what we would look for, if we were to try to establish listening changes. In fact, once one cryo cycle is done, it should stay that way, even at room temperature.
...and what "listening changes" are you looking for? Opinions of changes aren't 'real" changes applicable to the public at large.. only to those expressing them.
Again referring to Hummel: "The residual resistivity p(res) is interpreted to be due to imperfections in the crystal, such as impurities, vacancies, gain boundaries or dislocations. The residual resistivity is essentially not temperature dependent. According to Matthiessen's rule the resistivity arises from independent scattering processes which are additive, ..." pp. 84-85 'Electronic Propeties of Materials' 2'nd edition.
What point does this excerpt address... if residual resistivity is independent of temp. what good does cryoing (your term) do? Cryogenic exposure does not "heal" imperfections, as seems to be what is implied. Again, any property changes induced by temperature change in metals are governed by exponential arrhenius processes, thus they would occur at much slower rates than at room temperature. Annealing is a trivial example of such a process.
auplater
auplater
Re: Re: REAL cryogenics
John,
this is an instruction from a certain large radio observatory that shall remain unnamed. I am certainly not knowleable enough with ultra low temperature stuff to argue the instruction posted on the wall (which btw is followed by many people who still have all their fingers intact) 😎
My guess is because instrument will be at room temp, it is quick and cheap to precool it with LN. Both He and N tanks are emptied before LHe is applied, and then only LN dewar refilled, so no chunks of nitrogens result after LHe is flown in (unfortunately! it'be fun to throw some nitroballs 😉 )
Unless dealing with liquid hydrogen, in which case leak warning is a lot more spectacular 😀
jneutron said:
John,
this is an instruction from a certain large radio observatory that shall remain unnamed. I am certainly not knowleable enough with ultra low temperature stuff to argue the instruction posted on the wall (which btw is followed by many people who still have all their fingers intact) 😎
My guess is because instrument will be at room temp, it is quick and cheap to precool it with LN. Both He and N tanks are emptied before LHe is applied, and then only LN dewar refilled, so no chunks of nitrogens result after LHe is flown in (unfortunately! it'be fun to throw some nitroballs 😉 )
poobah said:
Unless dealing with liquid hydrogen, in which case leak warning is a lot more spectacular 😀
cryo benefits ?
John,
would you agree that if there was any electrical benefit (unless we're getting into Mpingo blocks territory) in cryotreatment of electronic devices (active or passive), the astronomers and subparticle physicists (who have access, know how and quite an obvious vested interest) would be using it and drumming it up big time ? As of today, I'm unaware of anyone doing anything of sorts, and used (cryocycled) CCDs don't really appreciate in price (quite contrary).
Or to put it simply: what benefit could an audio circuit gain from cryogenic treatment that (often much, MUCH more demanding) scientific applications couldn't ?
Bratislav
john curl said:
John,
would you agree that if there was any electrical benefit (unless we're getting into Mpingo blocks territory) in cryotreatment of electronic devices (active or passive), the astronomers and subparticle physicists (who have access, know how and quite an obvious vested interest) would be using it and drumming it up big time ? As of today, I'm unaware of anyone doing anything of sorts, and used (cryocycled) CCDs don't really appreciate in price (quite contrary).
Or to put it simply: what benefit could an audio circuit gain from cryogenic treatment that (often much, MUCH more demanding) scientific applications couldn't ?
Bratislav
The suggestion of benefits from cryo treatment also begs for some other questions.
Why don't recording studios use it if it works? They seem to acknowledge the importance of very-low-jitter clocks, for instance.
What about cryo treatment of musical instruments? Brass instruments and metal strings for violins, for instance? Or perhaps whe should treat the whole violin? Anybody willing to to volunteer his/her Stradivarius for cryo treatment? I wonder what Ann-Sophie Mutters Strad would sound like after cryo treatment? 🙂
Why don't recording studios use it if it works? They seem to acknowledge the importance of very-low-jitter clocks, for instance.
What about cryo treatment of musical instruments? Brass instruments and metal strings for violins, for instance? Or perhaps whe should treat the whole violin? Anybody willing to to volunteer his/her Stradivarius for cryo treatment? I wonder what Ann-Sophie Mutters Strad would sound like after cryo treatment? 🙂
Cry-ohh!
maybe cryo treating the listener could improove the sound... oh wait!
That's already being tried out west somewhere... you could freeze yourself for 100 years and come back to hear all the improvements audio technology has made...
auplater
maybe cryo treating the listener could improove the sound... oh wait!
That's already being tried out west somewhere... you could freeze yourself for 100 years and come back to hear all the improvements audio technology has made...
auplater
Re: Cry-ohh!
Unless we get this cryo treatment thing going someone is going to be awfully disappointed. But nobody will be able to afford any of the gear anyways, so future audiophiles will just have to imagine and pretend what all of these improvments might do.😉
I tried, but I couldn't resist. Mike.
auplater said:
Unless we get this cryo treatment thing going someone is going to be awfully disappointed. But nobody will be able to afford any of the gear anyways, so future audiophiles will just have to imagine and pretend what all of these improvments might do.😉
I tried, but I couldn't resist. Mike.
That's funny Mike... I used to work next door to that place (Alcor)! Had to be rough place to work. Imagine a business where all your clients prepay... and then die! Good work if you can get it...
As long as we're knee deep in cryo insanity:
www.alcor.org
They actually call their frozen dead people/heads "patients"! I think patience might be better term.
😀
As long as we're knee deep in cryo insanity:
www.alcor.org
They actually call their frozen dead people/heads "patients"! I think patience might be better term.
😀
poobah said:
I guess the dieing part makes the followup on "services rendered" a bit lax.
I have to ask, Is this Alcor still in business? I can just imagine the mess the landlord would have to deal with if they defaulted on the rental agreement....
Mike.
I think they are still in operation.
They have either moved or they are showing an false photo on their site... their real building was/is a little less glamorous.
Yeah... i got ya... whatta ya do with tons of rotting meat... oops... I mean patients.
They have either moved or they are showing an false photo on their site... their real building was/is a little less glamorous.
Yeah... i got ya... whatta ya do with tons of rotting meat... oops... I mean patients.
Just an off color joke. Sorry bout that. Like all forms of communication humor requires a common background at its best.
Mike.
Mike.
Please don't slaughter me !
Hi All,
Thank you for responding to my last set of questions ! John, Post 142, Poobah, Post 121, FastEddy, Post 71 in particular thanks Big Men !
I was ducking for cover while the heavy weights were slugging it out. Now with things are relatively cooled down I decided to raise my head a few inches of the ground !
If I did take a bunch of components say for an amplifier and cool one set of components infinitely slowly to -300, hold them at that temperature for 24 hours and then bring them back again infinitely slowly to room temperature, then cold solder all "cryoged" components with http://www.devcon.com/devconfamilyproduct.cfm?familyid=325&catid=33 (I read in this post somewhere that heat defeats the whole purpose of cold treatment) and solder up another amplifier the normal way using normal untreated components.
Could these two units qualify for a serious A/B test ?
If it does how does one go about testing the difference.....I mean is it only a subjective test or can actual measurements be taken...if so, what measurements should I be looking at taking.
Also is it remotely possible to operate an amp at -300 if so how does one go about it.....
Guys I am a newbie so please don't shoot my head off for asking any question that may seem dumb...have mercy on a poor little babe in the woods !! 🙂 !!
Thanks everyone !
Hi All,
Thank you for responding to my last set of questions ! John, Post 142, Poobah, Post 121, FastEddy, Post 71 in particular thanks Big Men !
I was ducking for cover while the heavy weights were slugging it out. Now with things are relatively cooled down I decided to raise my head a few inches of the ground !
If I did take a bunch of components say for an amplifier and cool one set of components infinitely slowly to -300, hold them at that temperature for 24 hours and then bring them back again infinitely slowly to room temperature, then cold solder all "cryoged" components with http://www.devcon.com/devconfamilyproduct.cfm?familyid=325&catid=33 (I read in this post somewhere that heat defeats the whole purpose of cold treatment) and solder up another amplifier the normal way using normal untreated components.
Could these two units qualify for a serious A/B test ?
If it does how does one go about testing the difference.....I mean is it only a subjective test or can actual measurements be taken...if so, what measurements should I be looking at taking.
Also is it remotely possible to operate an amp at -300 if so how does one go about it.....
Guys I am a newbie so please don't shoot my head off for asking any question that may seem dumb...have mercy on a poor little babe in the woods !! 🙂 !!
Thanks everyone !
Listening tests are pretty straightforward, but as soon as you put controls on them to isolate the variable of cryo treatment, any negative results will cause deafness due to the high SPL from the squealing of True Believers. To a True Believer, any test must show a positive result or it's a bad test (or you're a deaf, close-minded, insensitive music-hater). If it's a positive result, that's interesting and I'd sure appreciate a report.
If there IS something there, a measurement will show some difference, the measurement being a function of what is the cryo'd item and what is the claimed effect of cryo treatment. For myself, being a tube guy, I went to a reputable vendor of cryo'd tubes and asked specifically what sorts of things it changed. His hypothesis (a plausible one) was that it changed internal vibratory resonances. OK, that's measurable and I've set up a jig to do so, using a randomized set of treated and untreated tubes from the same batch. If the vendor's hypothesis is correct, there should be some systematic differences in the resonance spectra. When I get the tubes, we'll see....
edit: I'm interested in the idea that heating removes the effect of cryo treatment. If it's something that demonstrably works on gun barrels or vacuum tubes, how can that be?
If there IS something there, a measurement will show some difference, the measurement being a function of what is the cryo'd item and what is the claimed effect of cryo treatment. For myself, being a tube guy, I went to a reputable vendor of cryo'd tubes and asked specifically what sorts of things it changed. His hypothesis (a plausible one) was that it changed internal vibratory resonances. OK, that's measurable and I've set up a jig to do so, using a randomized set of treated and untreated tubes from the same batch. If the vendor's hypothesis is correct, there should be some systematic differences in the resonance spectra. When I get the tubes, we'll see....
edit: I'm interested in the idea that heating removes the effect of cryo treatment. If it's something that demonstrably works on gun barrels or vacuum tubes, how can that be?
Hi Stuart,
I haven't read anything that states heating undoes the cryo treatment. If I recall, elimination (or reduction) of resonances was involved.
Interesting because the act of firing a gun involves rapid heating and expansion of the passage as the pressure wave passes. After about 3~4 rounds, oil or any other fluid is smoking on the barrel. Therefore the temperature change is not trivial. The intense shock on top of that must do something as well.
-Chris
I haven't read anything that states heating undoes the cryo treatment. If I recall, elimination (or reduction) of resonances was involved.
Interesting because the act of firing a gun involves rapid heating and expansion of the passage as the pressure wave passes. After about 3~4 rounds, oil or any other fluid is smoking on the barrel. Therefore the temperature change is not trivial. The intense shock on top of that must do something as well.
-Chris
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