Cryogenic Processing Does It Work

[poobah]

Are audio applications that much more critical to detect something astronomers do not know about ? Using your ears, no less ?

That's right Bratislav. The same technology that can load 4 Billion bits into a PC flawlessly... not ONE error... can't work for audio.

Not without the Bedini Clarifier.

Arrrggghhh!

EDIT: sorry... spelled your name wrong.

 

[Bratislav]

Absolute nonsense...

😕

I guess I should have put "proof" 😉

Sometimes my sarcasm is a bit obscure
😀

 

[poobah]

I caught your drift!

😀

 

[Bratislav]

REAL cryogenics

For adventurous who want ultimate from their <insert the desired device to be treated here> by really really cold treatment, this instruction on handling liquid helium might come handy ...

Filling Liquid Helium Detectors
(Cu-doped Germanium Detectors and Bolometers
also for selected audio devices (note Bratislav) )

Ø If detector is room-temperature, begin with Step 1.
Ø If detector is already cold, skip to Step 6.

1. Pump out vacuum jacket on detector until it reaches ~10-6 torr.
2. Fill liquid nitrogen reservoir with liquid nitrogen. Wait until gas boil-off has stopped.
3. Fill liquid helium reservoir with liquid nitrogen. Wait until gas boil-off has stopped.
4. Empty both liquid helium and liquid nitrogen reservoirs completely.
5. Refill liquid nitrogen reservoir with liquid nitrogen.
6. On liquid He dewar, open horizontal vent valve and vent dewar slowly
7. On liquid He dewar, close pressure-release vent valve and remove pressure vent.
8. Connect helium gas tank to pressure-release vent valve.
9. Open main valve on helium gas tank.
10. On liquid He tank, open transfer line valve.
11. Insert transfer line into liquid helium dewar. Secure knurled knob.
12. Helium gas will begin to flow through transfer line. Open pressure-release vent valve to
slightly pressurize (<2 psi) helium dewar and initiate liquid helium flow.
13. Close pressure-release vent valve.
14. One liquid helium begins to flow, insert transfer line into detector. (If cooling detector from
room temperature, insert transfer line before liquid helium begins to flow.)
15. Make note of the time it takes to fill the detector.
16. Once the detector is full, open horizontal vent valve on dewar, and vent slowly.
17. Release knurled knob on transfer line and remove CAREFULLY.
18. Close main valve on helium gas tank.
19. Remove connection to helium gas tank.
20. On liquid helium dewar, replace pressure vent and open pressure-release vent valve.
21. On liquid helium dewar, close horizontal vent valve and transfer line valve.
22. Replace top to liquid helium reservoir on detector.
23. Record liquid helium fill in notebook.

Plonk it back into your Ongaku and enjoy the sound ... 😉

 

[john curl]

I F You don't know what you are talking about. Almost everyone I know has their parts independently cryoed at a facility, OR they have the right equipment and skill to do the job. It isn't about dipping something in liquid nitrogen or anything like that. Please try to learn about a subject, before you condemn it.

 

[Bratislav]

I F You don't know what you are talking about. Almost everyone I know has their parts independently cryoed at a facility, OR they have the right equipment and skill to do the job. It isn't about dipping something in liquid nitrogen or anything like that. Please try to learn about a subject, before you condemn it.

Actually I DO have some relevant experience. Not about treating 300B's, CDs and interconnects, I'll admit that

😎

PS for those missing my obscure sarcasm again, previous post should have a big kids, please do not try this at home disclaimer. On the other hand, I figured out not many homes would have dewars with liquid helium laying around 😀

 

[john curl]

Bratislav, I was referring to I_F, not you or anyone else. Please read his comment, and perhaps you will understand what I am condemning. I do not say this lightly, but in defense of people who do this everyday with a number of products, where audio is relatively incidental.

 

[Bratislav]

Bedini

Actually John, I'd be interested to hear your take on Clarifier ...

Not baiting or anything, I'm just completely puzzled. I was a big Bedini fan 20 or so years ago after hearing 25+25 on three pairs of stacked ESL 57s. I simply can't figure this one out.

Yes moderators, I know this is off topic, but PLEASE ... just this one time.

 

[john curl]

I had it demoed to me once by a friendly high end hi fi dealer. My office was upstairs, so I sometimes came into the store to see what is new. It worked for me, and I was surprised that it worked at all. However, it was tedious to do the procedure in for every cd, and it didn't last indefinitely, so I never followed it up.

 

[maudio]

All of the technical info provided by Metalman is very interesting, and points to possible changes in metal structures and possible effects that those changes may have on audio (whatever "smearing" is), but none of the audio cryo-treating people performs any testing of any kind to determine if their treatment regime is actually changing the metals, or to what extent they are changed, nevermind the audio effects of those changes, and don't ask them about accelerated life testing to determine if they are actually doing more harm than good, assuming there is a possibility of doing some good.

I fully agree on this. It's all very nice the cryo may change moleculair structures (excellent explanation, metalman) to some extend, but I suppose bending a wire a few times back and forth will induce significant structural changes in the copper as well (albeit different onces). Never heard anyone claiming that bending interlinks will degrade (or improve?) sound.

What it's all about is proving that cryo will actually change the materials in such a way that sound improves. And the way to prove that is not subjective listening (either to cryo-ed equipment or the cryo sales person). So until someone comes up with the results of a well controlled double-blind test I guess it's unavoidable that there wil remain a lot of sceptism about such treatments.

Still, if people feel better listening to cryo-ed equipment without such prove, who am I to judge..

 

[MarkRehorst]

I F You don't know what you are talking about. Almost everyone I know has their parts independently cryoed at a facility, OR they have the right equipment and skill to do the job. It isn't about dipping something in liquid nitrogen or anything like that. Please try to learn about a subject, before you condemn it.

I know they are doing the "listening tests" because that's what they rave about all the time. But you are right. I was completely unaware that they have all been doing metallurgical analysis on these things to determine exactly what changes have taken place (if any), and they are doing accelerated life testing to ensure that their regime doesn't reduce the life of the treated component dramatically (maybe by weakening the glass to metal seals at tube pins, for example). And of course, they must also be doing studies that correlate the results of listening tests with specific types of metallurgical changes, so that they can know which of the many treatment regimes they have developed to apply to the specific component to be treated.

How foolish of me to have presumed otherwise!

Someone else pointed out that astronomers use supercooled circuits to reduce noise in the front-end circuits of radio telescopes. I almost forgot about that. Lower temp means lower thermal noise. That's why its called thermal noise- it is proportional to absolute temperature. But somehow, I think the audio marketing guys got it wrong- the circuit needs to be operated at the ultra low temperature to get reduced noise. It is not sufficient for the circuit/device to have been cooled once then returned to room temp.

I_F

 

[jneutron]

Yeah, I guess it is a good idea to provide proof of statements about ones qualifications. This is me!

As pointed out, links on a forum still prove nothing..and as I said, I don't need proof that you know what your talking about..I can read..

Not quite right, maybe from the older reference.

That's why I gave the reference and the date of the reference. Hey, if the authors of the books disagree, so be it..

"Structure and Properties of Engineering Alloys", Smith, 1981, p. 27
The crystal structure produced by the martensitic transformation in plain-carbon steel changes from BCC to body-centered tetragonal (BCT).
But then this is a non-equilibrium transistion that happens during quenching (very rapid temperature decrease), that does indeed occur as a diffusionless process as the cooling is to rapid to accomodate diffusion. I was more generally referring to the issue of retained austenite (FCC) in a ferrite or pearlite (BCC) steel that undergoes an equilibrium transition during slow cooling. This process does involve diffusion.

I was referring to austenite to ferrite, FCC to BCC, Mf and Ms. I imagine it differs depending on the alloys, but have only the cited text upon which to draw.

In english ( just a notch or two below geek-speak), if possible...

😉

You take all the fun out of it..

Cheers, John

 

[jneutron]

So one possible effect is that the localized zones around the retained phases impart a non-uniform conductivity within the copper.

Agreed, however the level of change will be insignificant with respect to the bulk material. Your talking about sub tenth percentage stuff through the material..

This could potentially result in smearing of an electrical signal.

No, that won't happen.

The only thing of any significance to come of inhomegeneity of the current distribution will be the reduction of the internal inductance. A very small change in local conductivity will result in an even smaller variation in the local eddies. At the hf limit, all you are talking about is 15 nanohenries per foot reduction. So smearing of an electrical signal, even high current slew ones, is many many orders of magnitude below audible, or even measurable..

Perhaps you could discuss this aspect with some of the EE guys in your work enviro. They deal with skinning and inductance, especially with very thick conductors.

Again, the arguement for its effect on an electrical audio signal is that it reduces the effects of the grain boundary interactions with the signal. Same arguement that applies for copper of larger sized long grains having better sound..

My same response from above. If it doesn't alter bulk resistivity significantly, it wont alter the internal inductance.

I KNOW I'm going to get seriously flamed for this post, so let me state in advance that I have tried to generalize and simplify this explanation a great deal, so anyone who has some knowledge in this area IS going to be able to blow holes in my arguements. That's a good thing because it means people will be discussing the issue and thinking about it...

Nah, none from me. and discussion is good.

If anyone wants to do some cryo treatment, I suggest they get some liquid nitrogen and do it themselves. You can rest assured that you know as much about it as the guys who would charge you an arm and a leg to do it for you (assuming that they actually do anything but take your money to the bank). Liquid nitrogen is used in so many industries that it is neither expensive nor difficult to obtain. You can keep it for many hours in a thermos - just don't screw the lid on tight!

I_F

I cannot recomend anyone DIY cryo. It is very dangerous, it can cause frostbite, and is an ODH. (oxygen deficiency hazard.)

I cannot recommend that anybody make a 2 foot by 2 foot box using 3/4 plywood, take some 2 inch thick styrofoam like the stuff available from Home depot, line the inside and seal the edges with gorilla tape..then line that again with another layer of 2 inch foam, sealed with gorilla tape all seams, with the inner foam cut two inches down to provide a stepped seal for the lid that I also do not recommend building with two layers of foam.

Since I don't recommend this, I also do not recommend taking copper flashing and forming an inner liner with soldered seams to provide sealing against the ln2 I cannot recommend using.

Or, as an alternate, I do not recommend using blank printed circuit boards that have the seams soldered, g-10 having the same tce as copper..

Safety note: from here down is VERY important..

Working with the stuff is far too dangerous.... The vapors are heavier than air, and will easily displace the oxygen.

If anyone sucks in a lungful of nitrogen only, they will have approximately 15 seconds of consciousness, and will pass out without warning.

We have a saying here. If you hear a cryo release, run (do not walk) the other way. Anyone who tries to be a hero ends up being the second victim..

All cryo should be done outside, without children gaining access.

I cannot recommend it. Please leave it to the experienced pro's.

Cheers, John

 

[jneutron]

In fact cryogenic treatment of electronic devices occurs on daily basis at pretty much any observatory. Back thinned CCDs and radio detectors are routinely cooled down to liquid Nitrogen (and some to MUCH lower temperatures - like neutrino and muon ionisation detectors that are cooled down to almost single Kelvin digits) and then brought back to ambient regularly, many every day.
Do we observe "better" performance after cooling ? Of course ! But only compared to room temperature. Unfortunately, well depth, noise, linearity, quantum efficiency or any other measurable electrical characteristic seems to stay EXACTLY the same - day in, day out. Same for performance of passives around them (tracks, connectors, wires, insulators you name it).
Are audio applications that much more critical to detect something astronomers do not know about ? Using your ears, no less ?
Hmmm...

I share that experience. Never has any change in passive components occurred, down to 1.8K in my case.

Cheers, John

 

[jneutron]

Re: REAL cryogenics

1. Pump out vacuum jacket on detector until it reaches ~10-6 torr.
2. Fill liquid nitrogen reservoir with liquid nitrogen. Wait until gas boil-off has stopped.
3. Fill liquid helium reservoir with liquid nitrogen. Wait until gas boil-off has stopped.
4. Empty both liquid helium and liquid nitrogen reservoirs completely.
5. Refill liquid nitrogen reservoir with liquid nitrogen.
6. On liquid He dewar, open horizontal vent valve and vent dewar slowly
7. On liquid He dewar, close pressure-release vent valve and remove pressure vent.
8. Connect helium gas tank to pressure-release vent valve.
9. Open main valve on helium gas tank.
10. On liquid He tank, open transfer line valve.
11. Insert transfer line into liquid helium dewar. Secure knurled knob.
12. Helium gas will begin to flow through transfer line. Open pressure-release vent valve to
slightly pressurize (<2 psi) helium dewar and initiate liquid helium flow.
13. Close pressure-release vent valve.
14. One liquid helium begins to flow, insert transfer line into detector. (If cooling detector from
room temperature, insert transfer line before liquid helium begins to flow.)
15. Make note of the time it takes to fill the detector.
16. Once the detector is full, open horizontal vent valve on dewar, and vent slowly.
17. Release knurled knob on transfer line and remove CAREFULLY.
18. Close main valve on helium gas tank.
19. Remove connection to helium gas tank.
20. On liquid helium dewar, replace pressure vent and open pressure-release vent valve.
21. On liquid helium dewar, close horizontal vent valve and transfer line valve.
22. Replace top to liquid helium reservoir on detector.
23. Record liquid helium fill in notebook.

Why pre-cool the helium reservoir to 77K with nitrogen? How do you keep nitrogen ice from forming when you introduce the helium?? Is the warm helium gas being used to purge it?

We pre-chill the helium gas through a 77k exchanger to avoid putting nitrogen in to the system after vacuum.

PS for those missing my obscure sarcasm again, previous post should have a big kids, please do not try this at home disclaimer. On the other hand, I figured out not many homes would have dewars with liquid helium laying around 😀

Didn't miss it...course, liquid helium is too darn expensive.

Cheers, John

 

[PeteM]

I worked for a company that built photomultipliers & CRT’s it also had a solid state department where I worked, I was a repair engineer on the vacuum plants ultrasonic wire bonders etc… I had little contact with actual products or measurements.

For a while I shared a room with some R&D guys who were designing/building the sun acquisition detectors for the Giotto space probe, they repeatedly tested these devices in liquid N He & O2 . (the storage tanks are clearly visible in Google Earth just to show the volume held on site)

I recall these guys commenting how the devices improved dramatically when super cooled, yet had no lasting effect at room temperature assuming the glass to metal seals survived.

They also built avalanche photo diodes subjecting these to the above treatment usually turned the device leaky.

Like I said I was only a nuts and bolts guy here and only used liquid N in the vacuum plant, apart from freezing everything in sight I noticed no effects to thermo couples I used. Surely the little current produced at a thermo couple junction would be effected. ?

Although from what little hearsay I have grasped in the past cryo treatment appears to do little if anything, but I maybe able to get a test done I still know some people there and its only a stones throw away.Maybe some cable and a few op-amps. ?

 

[poobah]

Maudio,

raises an important and overlooked issue, and since it addresses something perfectly ridiculous and impractical, there is no reason the audiophools should not take notice... cable bending.

The cryo boys are going to need to rebuild their tanks... about 6 inches by 30 feet outtat do the trick.

There can be a whole new industry surrounding NBB cable (Never Been Bent). Think of hassles in shipping... it's great!

John, actually working with LN2 is not so bad... flash freezing corneas should be a concern... and thus avoided.

The key to avoiding oxygen displacement is to smoke while you work... if your cigarette goes out; it's time to get some fresh air.

😎

 

[jneutron]

John, actually working with LN2 is not so bad... flash freezing corneas should be a concern... and thus avoided.

The key to avoiding oxygen displacement is to smoke while you work... if your cigarette goes out; it's time to get some fresh air.

😎

Oh yah, I forgot all about the safety glasses and the cryo rated gloves.

The safety glasses need side shields.

The gloves, man are they expensive, 80 bucks a pop...8 dollars a finger..

Smoking...hmmm..I seemed to have missed that part of the ODH training..guess I fell asleep..

Never been bent...sheesh, I remember goin to a track meet, hadta use a plane to get there. The pole vaulters implements, well they didn't fit through the cargo door....so the baggage handlers simply folded them..ballistic ain't the word... And the 35 pound weight going through the overhead baggage conveyer system...holy mackeral.

Cheers, John

 

[poobah]

I used to build brushless motors for deep-sea stuff. We used cryo to interference fit alot of parts and save bucks. We started out pretty scared, but eventually got rather casual around the LN2. Eyewear for sure... and all clothes were velco or snaps. We did have proper containers/plumbing and all, fixed, so that nothing could be mindlessly knocked over etc...

Fun stuff!

I am curious about the phase change stuff... every once in while we would get a part that would warp out of tolerance... something was going on.

 

[jsa_ind]

To all my respected Cryogenic gurus,

Could you please advise if the positive effects of treated cryogenic parts remain forever, or do they wear off after a period of time. If so what is the reason, if not then again why ?

Please help me !

Thank you !