Joe... you sound stressed. Do the potato and toothpick thing... really... do it.
Oh... BTW... you DID cryo those fuses first... didn't you... Joe?
Oh... BTW... you DID cryo those fuses first... didn't you... Joe?
Its a proven fact that you can hear the difference in the cryo products so I naturally sent my audiophile grade fuses out to be treated. The cost increase is minimal in terms of the sonic improvement that can be heard. Not only do I have fuses that will last the life of the amplifier but now I have life time tubes.
Awesome Poobah.
I don't think Mrs L noticed the potatoes missing
Now, how do we modulate this thing
😎
I don't think Mrs L noticed the potatoes missing
Now, how do we modulate this thing
😎
If microwaves can do such magic to lowtech stuff like potatos and toothpicks, imagine what wonders it will do to high-tech power amps.
Try microwaving the whole amp and see how it sounds (afterwards, not while being flashed)
Don't forget to play one of those special burn-in discs while watching the show.
😀
Try microwaving the whole amp and see how it sounds (afterwards, not while being flashed)
Don't forget to play one of those special burn-in discs while watching the show.
😀
John,
although I have no formal proof that coffee can't be too strong, I am fully convinced that it is just the coffe drinkers that can be too weak. 🙂
although I have no formal proof that coffee can't be too strong, I am fully convinced that it is just the coffe drinkers that can be too weak. 🙂
Re: years ago.....
E/M fields will induce voltage and current, depending on the materials.
Neither are in any way proven for audio stuff, but it is also unproven.
Given that anecdotal account, why do you suspect Analog devices doesn't use cryo as a manufacturing process. Ln2 is cheaper than beer, and it's trivial to put a process chamber together for controlled ramps and dwells.
Given the tce's of the die, the package, and the silver epoxy used for DAC die attach, I'd be suprised if the cooldown didn't relieve some of the bonding stresses..the die attach epoxies are typically 125C cure, so this sets the zero stress temperature to 125C, room temp operation will be with residual die shear stresses, peak force at the die corners. In dropping to 77K, excessive shear stress would force silver flake slip plane dislocation to relieve stress, an issue being die attach integrity at the corners..detachment there would indeed lower the die strain..and it wouldn't be an issue if there is no resistive dissipation.. but it wouldn't meet mil requirements anymore.
A common problem with the high precision matched resistive ladders is die attach related stress causing the match to drift. I've had issues of this type with .001% matched ratio ladders.
I'd bet the farm that they figured out the stress was crashing the tracking of the resistors, and re-configured the serpentines to remove the transfer function.
I also guess that you are unaware of that sequence because it is a proprietary issue which gives AD an upper hand. Zero tempco's are big with military product.
Turbo's: Heck, that's easy..drop the materials below martensitic finish temp, poof..Harder...diffusionless transformation from FCC to BCC lattice.
It is, however, irresponsible to simply assume that the treated part is better. For the turbo, it brittles the material as well as hardens it...without analysis and possibly further tempering, who knows what the long term ramifications are.
Cheers, John
Vibration is used to relieve weld stress on large structures, so they are probably thinking along those lines.jsa_ind said:
E/M fields will induce voltage and current, depending on the materials.
Neither are in any way proven for audio stuff, but it is also unproven.
I'm not so sure bout nukin being worse...My take is that your experiment with the austin power soundtrack cd was a success.. burned, didn't it??poobah said:
moray james said:
Given that anecdotal account, why do you suspect Analog devices doesn't use cryo as a manufacturing process. Ln2 is cheaper than beer, and it's trivial to put a process chamber together for controlled ramps and dwells.
Given the tce's of the die, the package, and the silver epoxy used for DAC die attach, I'd be suprised if the cooldown didn't relieve some of the bonding stresses..the die attach epoxies are typically 125C cure, so this sets the zero stress temperature to 125C, room temp operation will be with residual die shear stresses, peak force at the die corners. In dropping to 77K, excessive shear stress would force silver flake slip plane dislocation to relieve stress, an issue being die attach integrity at the corners..detachment there would indeed lower the die strain..and it wouldn't be an issue if there is no resistive dissipation.. but it wouldn't meet mil requirements anymore.
A common problem with the high precision matched resistive ladders is die attach related stress causing the match to drift. I've had issues of this type with .001% matched ratio ladders.
I'd bet the farm that they figured out the stress was crashing the tracking of the resistors, and re-configured the serpentines to remove the transfer function.
I also guess that you are unaware of that sequence because it is a proprietary issue which gives AD an upper hand. Zero tempco's are big with military product.
Turbo's: Heck, that's easy..drop the materials below martensitic finish temp, poof..Harder...diffusionless transformation from FCC to BCC lattice.
It is, however, irresponsible to simply assume that the treated part is better. For the turbo, it brittles the material as well as hardens it...without analysis and possibly further tempering, who knows what the long term ramifications are.
Cheers, John
No, but a non-binding resolution was recently passed, allowing a moratorium on specific laws of physics. Something to do with the energy crisis..SY said:
serengetiplains said:
Possible being the key word. Not proven, but possible..
Cheers, John
Re: Re: years ago.....
1 ) Cycle Time becomes manufacturing costs. This has to be one slow process. It's also probably not covered (supported) in the Mil specs.
2 ) This has been my point all along, just tell me what is happening during this transformation.... Science is our friend.
3 ) with military spec parts the process and testing is dictated and documented to a rediculous degree, I doubt that it could slip under the radar. NDA's can become worthless after a few drinks.
4 ) It takes deep pockets and real engineering to touch all the bases. Picking up some kind of cryo tank and taking in business is a heck of a lot easier. 😉
This has been interesting and fun, although the concept will go back up onto the shelf untill something else knocks it off again.
Mike.😎
jneutron said:
1 ) Cycle Time becomes manufacturing costs. This has to be one slow process. It's also probably not covered (supported) in the Mil specs.
2 ) This has been my point all along, just tell me what is happening during this transformation.... Science is our friend.
3 ) with military spec parts the process and testing is dictated and documented to a rediculous degree, I doubt that it could slip under the radar. NDA's can become worthless after a few drinks.
4 ) It takes deep pockets and real engineering to touch all the bases. Picking up some kind of cryo tank and taking in business is a heck of a lot easier. 😉
This has been interesting and fun, although the concept will go back up onto the shelf untill something else knocks it off again.
Mike.😎
It happens over & over again in threads that fall into the snake oil or truth... demands for proof instead of an open mind....
someone else wrote this but it is worth keeping in the back of your head)
dave
Cryo bath does work ... but
What is actually cryogenic processing ?
Fast reduction in temperature, slow recovery to ambiant temp.
How does one go about it ?
Make a container to hold the liquid gas to be used (a duer or "dooer")
How long has a product or component need to be treated ?
usually over a 24 hour period, emmersion = minutes, bath time = hours, return to ambiant = hours.
Does it actually work ?
In esoteric metalergy, yes it does for small runs of high performance auto racing engine parts, etc.
If it does what are the scientific principles behind it.
Apparently the atoms slow down and realign under low temp. ... changing the metalergy in very interesting ways, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. ... and it does depend on the application. In the case of audio, resistance in the cables may (or may not) be perminantly reduced, depending on the cable alloy.
How is it that folks swear that a cryogenic treat solid state amplifier sounds so much better then one not treated ?
It may be true ... it may not. There are too many variables in amplifier components to be sure.
Is there any difference if only the electronic components are treated prior to soldering & assembly versus if the whole unit is cryogenically treated as a unit by itself ?
Maybe, maybe not. Considering that a "cryo treatment" may do one good thing to a semiconductor junction, only to be "undone" by the heat of soldering ...
How is thermal shock prevented ?
In the "cryo treatment", the warm up cycle should be long, hours or even days. (However, there may be no way to prevent a positive outcome from turning sour when rapid heat is then applied as in high temperature soldering (above).
All of this is not fully understood. There are folks who make this their PHD thesis ... This is more complicated than rocket science and it takes much longer in the laboratory
What is actually cryogenic processing ?
Fast reduction in temperature, slow recovery to ambiant temp.
How does one go about it ?
Make a container to hold the liquid gas to be used (a duer or "dooer")
How long has a product or component need to be treated ?
usually over a 24 hour period, emmersion = minutes, bath time = hours, return to ambiant = hours.
Does it actually work ?
In esoteric metalergy, yes it does for small runs of high performance auto racing engine parts, etc.
If it does what are the scientific principles behind it.
Apparently the atoms slow down and realign under low temp. ... changing the metalergy in very interesting ways, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. ... and it does depend on the application. In the case of audio, resistance in the cables may (or may not) be perminantly reduced, depending on the cable alloy.
How is it that folks swear that a cryogenic treat solid state amplifier sounds so much better then one not treated ?
It may be true ... it may not. There are too many variables in amplifier components to be sure.
Is there any difference if only the electronic components are treated prior to soldering & assembly versus if the whole unit is cryogenically treated as a unit by itself ?
Maybe, maybe not. Considering that a "cryo treatment" may do one good thing to a semiconductor junction, only to be "undone" by the heat of soldering ...
How is thermal shock prevented ?
In the "cryo treatment", the warm up cycle should be long, hours or even days. (However, there may be no way to prevent a positive outcome from turning sour when rapid heat is then applied as in high temperature soldering (above).
All of this is not fully understood. There are folks who make this their PHD thesis ... This is more complicated than rocket science and it takes much longer in the laboratory
Dear Fasteddy,
Thank you very much for your insights
May I please have your views on applying Electromagnetic fields & Ultrasonic Vibrations while cooling products to -300
Thank you Sir !
Thank you very much for your insights
May I please have your views on applying Electromagnetic fields & Ultrasonic Vibrations while cooling products to -300
Thank you Sir !
Dave (p_10),
You make a most excellent point. However, a large number of credible scientists also saw N-Rays. In the end, it was the ironheads that laid the issue to rest. This is isn't to say they aren't occasionally taught a new thing or two.
These scientists, seeing N-Rays, were perhaps caught in the same trap as the audiophiles listening to silver... "Dare I admit in front of my peers that I can't hear a difference?"... nevermind measurements.
The ironheads are no more a broken-record than are the cryo guys etc... Fortunately, no one has a monopoly on bad manners or rock throwing. It's all good, and it is less about being open minded, and more about scientific rigor.
Where I consistently see a striking difference between the ironheads and their opponents, is that the ironheads have nothing to sell (or own), while the opposing faction does.
🙂
You make a most excellent point. However, a large number of credible scientists also saw N-Rays. In the end, it was the ironheads that laid the issue to rest. This is isn't to say they aren't occasionally taught a new thing or two.
These scientists, seeing N-Rays, were perhaps caught in the same trap as the audiophiles listening to silver... "Dare I admit in front of my peers that I can't hear a difference?"... nevermind measurements.
The ironheads are no more a broken-record than are the cryo guys etc... Fortunately, no one has a monopoly on bad manners or rock throwing. It's all good, and it is less about being open minded, and more about scientific rigor.
Where I consistently see a striking difference between the ironheads and their opponents, is that the ironheads have nothing to sell (or own), while the opposing faction does.
🙂
planet10 said:
I would report your inconsionable...ible, edible,...whatever..(there's no way I'm gonna spell that right, just go with it.😀 ..) attitude to a moderator...unfortunately, you are one..😉
If you are going to quote me, do it RIGHT...
I said: ""Possible being the key word. Not proven, but possible..""
Do you accuse everybody who says it's "possible" of being closed minded..
HMMM??
Read better, dude..
Ah, got that rant off my chest...boy do I feel better...
Seriously now..you really didn't read my post correctly..in fact, I took the time on another post, to hypothesize what could be a reason for a DAC to sound differently after cryo..real world experience stuff I've been through.
So I'm really suprised you culled out of context what I said, as the next two words meant a whole lot, and trashes what you stated bout my attitude..
Cheers, John
Dave, it's not that simple. The scientific community is as divided as ever. The validity of empirical tests is still disputed. As the Pope of Positivism, Comte, put it: "Interpretation is a sin."
The positivists, or whatever they call themselves these days, still believe there are only facts. They are also as silly as ever and believe the old lie that math is the same as truth.
The positivists, or whatever they call themselves these days, still believe there are only facts. They are also as silly as ever and believe the old lie that math is the same as truth.
phn,
Sometimes I fear you are too close to your inner child. On the other hand, neutron's inner child needs a spanking.
😀
Sometimes I fear you are too close to your inner child. On the other hand, neutron's inner child needs a spanking.
😀
planet10 said:
of course you should add the bit about indigo - given Newton's numerology/alchemical leanings it didn’t fit his preconceptions to have the spectrum be the ugly number of 6 perceptible colors - there had to be the divine 7
he also rejected the wave theory of light - of course we now believe the situation is more complicated than a simple dichotomy - both wave and particle theory are merged
jneutron said:
If i was quoting you, your name would be above it... you did happen to be the last to use the word, but my post had intent with greater scope.
I do not dispute or have any issues with trying to figure out why, i only have issues with those who will dismiss an idea wholesale because there is no proof (and that is not aimed at you John or anyone in particular -- you are asking some good questions).
At this point in audio science we don't have enuff knowledge of the ear-brain perception system (and how it varies from unit-to-unit) to prove anything when it comes to "sounds better" -- we have to rely on our ears & try to use the very limited measurement gear we have to try to help us understand what we are hearing.
dave
planet10 said:
It didn't look very nice..it clearly looked like you were taking me to task...which suprised me no end..I felt the need to mention it..
And yes, I appreciate the greater scope you speak of. There's a balance somewhere...
planet10 said:
Been sayin dat for years..and, workin on advancing it..
Cheers, John
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