Cryogenic Processing Does It Work

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#121
jsa,

Nothing in this thread so far, with the exception of heresay from people with a vested interest, has established that there IS a beneficial effect at all. It is premature to ask whether the effect, if any, is permanent.

The people with the vested interest will cite direct experience suggesting that the cryo procedure is not permanent and will need to be repeated.

Remember, that temperature cycling (cryo) is a commonly used process to torture objects in order to reveal their weaknesses (see arrhenius).

Some of the more credible testimony suggests that damage may be the most prevalent effect... and you could assume this to be permanent.



😉
 
#122
One note about liquid Nitrogen. It is true that it will displace air as it boils off, but it is not an anesthetic or we'd all be asleep. Inhaling a lungful of Nitrogen gas will not put you out in 15 seconds unless there is something seriously wrong with your body.

Here's a simple experiment. Exhale and hold your breath. Check your watch in 15 seconds and see if you are asleep. I thought not.

There are enough real hazards associated with messing with liquid nitrogen so what's the point in making up new ones? This FUD is the sort of thing that marketing guys love to spout so that you'll pay them to brave the hazards instead of doing the job yourself. Like anything else, learn a little about what you are handling and prepare to deal with it safely. You've already done that with paint, glue, gasoline, etc. It isn't that hard.

I_F
 
#125
I_Forgot said:
One note about liquid Nitrogen. It is true that it will displace air as it boils off, but it is not an anesthetic or we'd all be asleep. Inhaling a lungful of Nitrogen gas will not put you out in 15 seconds unless there is something seriously wrong with your body.

Here's a simple experiment. Exhale and hold your breath. Check your watch in 15 seconds and see if you are asleep. I thought not.

There are enough real hazards associated with messing with liquid nitrogen so what's the point in making up new ones? This FUD is the sort of thing that marketing guys love to spout so that you'll pay them to brave the hazards instead of doing the job yourself. Like anything else, learn a little about what you are handling and prepare to deal with it safely. You've already done that with paint, glue, gasoline, etc. It isn't that hard.

I_F
Click to expand...

Hmmmm.. Where to start.

I use liquid nitrogen. I use liquid helium. I have done so for 14 years now.

In the course of my using this stuff, my employer has required that I take training to make myself more aware of the dangers my work enviro pose to all of us.

One of those required training courses is ODH. This course is taught by those better than I, they stated that one can pass out in 15 seconds from the lack of oxygen..which is a significant danger for those who use cryogenic nitrogen or helium.

Don't take my word for it...do your own Google search....

I did, and this is what I came up with.

First find: apparently, some kind of trade worker site for info.

http://www.constructionwork.com/resources_details_1313the_effects_of_oxygen_deficiency.html

This site claims coma in 40 seconds for 4 to 6% oxygen environment.

Second find: some kind of safety institute training booklet..

http://www.safetyline.wa.gov.au/institute/level1/course8/lecture23/l23_03.asp

This site claims that 5% is minimum to support life, 2-3% causes death within 1 minute.

It also explains the physiology as to why exhaling and timing is useless as an experiment...Reverse diffusion occurs, pulling oxygen out of the blood.

Third find: Stanford Linear Accelerator group...a national lab...
Slac (Stanford Linear Accelerator)says, and I quote:

http://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/...genic/p_hazards.htm#Oxygen_Deficiency_Hazards

""Without adequate oxygen, one can lose consciousness in a few seconds and die of asphyxiation in a few minutes. (See Tools <default.htm>, Cryogenic and Oxygen Deficiency Hazard Safety: ODH Risk Assessment Procedures, Table 1, for the biological effects of reduced oxygen concentrations.) ""

Now, take a look at the table 1...they show a graph of losing consciousness vs percentage of oxygen..NOTE THE ZERO INTERCEPT OF THE GRAPH....15 SECONDS TO LOSE IT!!!




Fourth find: I've no clue what this site is, some kind of cryo company I think.

http://www.boccryospeed.co.uk/cryospeed/safety/gas_risks/risks_of_oxygen_deficiency/index.asp


This place says "fainting almost immediately"


I recommend you first learn a bit more about the subject before going off on some weird proclamation about ""making up new hazards""..

I am not a marketing guy, I do not provide any cryogenic treatment, I simply....use the stuff daily, and am trained in doing so by some very smart people.

Yours is a dangerous attitude..Please try to be a bit more restrained before making glib comments about safety related things..

Cheers, John
PS..safety is a topic I will not waver on. When I say something is not safe, I D##M well mean it.
 
#130
planet10 said:


There it is again... before that will have any validity someone has to devise a statistically valid blind listening test.

dave
Click to expand...

D##m..you shure go out of your way to cull what you want out of a post, don't you..

He said, and I quote:

"" So until someone comes up with the results of a well controlled double-blind test I guess it's unavoidable that there wil remain a lot of sceptism about such treatments.

Still, if people feel better listening to cryo-ed equipment without such prove, who am I to judge..""

Is it your job to fan the flames and disrupt the discussion? You're not doing the discussion any favors. Please refrain from that kind of flame fanning..

Cheers, John
 
#132
I_Forgot said:
J_Neutron... You win! I concede the point.

I_F
Click to expand...

It is not a contest, therefore you did not lose.

Your attitude of skepticism is a healthy one. In this particular case, your skepticism was making a dangerous thing appear to be not so.

I am afraid when it comes to safety.

Being afraid is a good thing.

Cheers, John
PS.. I forgot to say...The example you stated, that of exhaling and waiting, is exactly what I thought too. I said that to the instructor, and he explained it to me.
 
#133
planet10 said:


There it is again... before that will have any validity someone has to devise a statistically valid blind listening test.

dave
Click to expand...

Oh, btw...I do not believe DBT's are capable of discerning localization cue changes very well. It's a human thing.

So, for image and soundstage changes, IMHO DBT's are not valid.

Cheers, John
 
#135
poobah said:
Isn't DBT-ing usually named as the culprit when silver-cryo anticipations fail to materialize? It's a bit like the dunking chair, if you survive; you're a witch.

:sad:
Click to expand...

Of course. DBT null results are always used to prove something made no difference.

But if the test method by design, prevents the subject from hearing a change that occurred, then reliance on the test to compare is not good.

How many have been electrocuted because they measured some wires using a voltmeter set to DC when AC was present? Wrong meter.

We localize via time and amplitude variations. And we adapt slowly to alterations in those parameters, much as we adapt slowly to intensity of light or sound. To assume that rapid switching from one set of localization parameters to another allows us to discriminate small changes in image placement is unfounded.

I personally "see" no valid scientific reasoning to explain how cryoing any conductor will change it's conduction behaviour, but I do not believe DBT's are useful at detecting such changes if they did indeed occur.

Cheers, John
 
#136
J that's a flame???

post #130 this is fanning the flames? God help me, I hope that when I am reincarnated I come back as a cryo tank so I never have to see you guys again! Ya know in the time it takes you guys to do what it is you seem to do best anybody else could cryo anything they like and listen for themselves. I am sure that between you all you have a half dozen smug letters as to why you don't need to bother and that I have no proof bla bla bla. This really is old. Any fresh discussion you seen to ignore or dismiss. Delete the posts you don't like life is good , bore bore bore.
 
#137
Cryo-processing ad nauseum

Ahh yes.. the infamous "discussion w/o facts" argument rears its head... never stated as opinions no less...

Here's another thought... how about an alternative using radiation treatments; you could call it

"beta-enhanced-transitiion-treated-ectoplasmic-response" cables

then the marketers could have the ultimate moniker for their mucho$$$$ cabling and such... as in "B-E-T-T-E-R" cable!!

Anyone ever tested plutonium wires? I'd definitely want that done DBT!

If one does the real science on soft metals such as copper, silver, gold, etc. and isn't baffled by the bs, calculating vacancy energies ,dislocation energies, grain mobility and intergranullar diffusion, one quickly realizes that, as the kinetic formulae for said processes contains the temperature component in the exponent, analogous to arrhenius eqns. in chemistry, any physical change on the electrical properties of said materials due to a material improvement would be measurable on the nano scale at best.

All the talk of austenitic transitions in steel and other hard metals has zero relevance to cryogenic temps. Unless of course your wires are made of mercury, cesium, or gallium that is.

auplater
 
#138
Re: J that's a flame???

moray james said:
post #130 this is fanning the flames? God help me, I hope that when I am reincarnated I come back as a cryo tank so I never have to see you guys again! Ya know in the time it takes you guys to do what it is you seem to do best anybody else could cryo anything they like and listen for themselves. I am sure that between you all you have a half dozen smug letters as to why you don't need to bother and that I have no proof bla bla bla. This really is old. Any fresh discussion you seen to ignore or dismiss. Delete the posts you don't like life is good , bore bore bore.
Click to expand...

My goodness. Quite honestly, I have no clue as to what you were trying to say..I'll try to respond to each of your non coherent statements. (not stupid statements, just not coherent and focussed.)

You:
"" Ya know in the time it takes you guys to do what it is you seem to do best anybody else could cryo anything they like and listen for themselves.""

Did you not notice the lengths I went to to describe a box which is sufficiently insulated and sealed, using materials available at home depot, so that anybody who wished, could try their own cryo testing???

And have I not informed those who wish to do so, of the safety issues involved in such?

You:

""I am sure that between you all you have a half dozen smug letters as to why you don't need to bother and that I have no proof bla bla bla. ""

I have never said no need to bother. I stated that I have not seen any credible scientific explanation which I believe would alter the conduction of current within any conductor.

I have also stated that the use of a DBT is insufficient as proof that an effect has or has not occurred, I believe the test is flawed.


You:

""This really is old. Any fresh discussion you seen to ignore or dismiss. Delete the posts you don't like life is good ""

What is "old" is knee-jerk reactions like the one you have just provided, without any semblence of coherence or focus...(edited to be nice..)
And I do not like censure, but rather, discussion.

If and when you are ready to have a discussion in a coherent fashion, I would be happy to oblige. But I require you first read the posts and understand their content.

Your recent post is abysmal...I believe you are better than that.

Cheers, John
 
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