SY, what do you hope to achieve? I mean, there are many ways you can change the characteristics of a tube, most often done thru use of said tube.
I'm not trying to start something here. I rather try to put it to a rest. Nobody will be able to prove anything. And there's little need proving something does not work. You cannot prove a negative anyway. The burden of proof is on the "other side." And the "other side" have no interest in proving anything. You do not ask a Christian to prove the existence of God. That would forfeit the idea of faith.
The existence of this thread is valid. But it has gone way beyond that.
I'm not trying to start something here. I rather try to put it to a rest. Nobody will be able to prove anything. And there's little need proving something does not work. You cannot prove a negative anyway. The burden of proof is on the "other side." And the "other side" have no interest in proving anything. You do not ask a Christian to prove the existence of God. That would forfeit the idea of faith.
The existence of this thread is valid. But it has gone way beyond that.
"DBT and the Dunking Chair"... would that be a great name for an article or what?
Jsa,
We have talked (well...) mainly about the effects of temperature on one material. What has been largely neglected, here, is the effects of temperature on assemblies; i.e. conglomerations of a variety of materials. Different materials expand and shrink at different rates. This is, in fact, an everyday problem in engineering many things; it can a nemesis.
Let's just look at a transistor for a moment... copper leads, an epoxy jacket, and everthing is at zero stress. Copper contracts about 16 ppm (or 0.0016 %) for every degree C. I have measured epoxies that contract at 80 ppm / C.
So... you cool the whole mess down, the copper shrinks a bit, the epoxy shrinks 5 times as much. Now the epoxy wrapped around the leads wants to tear... eventually it will. The reverse happens as you heat the transistor... but now the epoxy wants to peal away from the copper... and it does.
This is why we try to keep transistors cool. The actual transistor, just the naked piece of silicon, can operate at incredible temperatures, 300-400 C. The problem is the packages fall apart.
SY and others have made reference to the "arrhenius equation". This is a nifty equation that allows rapid testing and prediction of the "thermal life" of a product.
It works like this: let's say you want to build a product that can endure 1000 cycles from 25 to 50 C. That's fine, but it would take forever. You work through arrhenius and it tells you that 15 cycles from -200 to +100 C would be an equivalent amount of "exercise" (torture is a better word). So, you take your gizmo, put it in a big expensive chamber and run it through the 15 cycles. If it survives, the CEO and CFO take you to dinner and buy the drinks. If it fails, you and the nemesis go to dinner alone and you pay for the drinks.
Now... why cryo? Our components these days contain lots of plastic and some juices. Nylons soften at 110 C, PVC melts at 180, electrolytic cap juice is already angry at 100 C, paints start to smoke and discolor at 150 c or so. And, our toys routinely operate at 50 to 100 C... how boring is that.
When it comes to the whackos, they simply didn't have the option going up in temperature... there was no place to go but down. Rest assured, were it possible (there are some teflon cap & tube guys out there thinking about it right now) there woud be just as much hubbub about "tempering" your amp in an oven. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?
Now testing is good... in so far as SY and the dunking chair point to its futility. But don't do any arrhenius testing on anything you care about.
Hi SY,
Here is a company that does this along with their yada yada. They like to freeze everything it seems.
I've read a very consistant stream of information over the course of many years. All supporting cryo treatment of gun barrels. There is no way I'm enough of a shooter to prove this one way or another. Olympic shooters may. Here is another link from a magasine that talks about this. Of course there is much more out there. Reading articles that go back far before the 'net was popular on this subject shows consistancy. Nothing yet that debunks the process. I'm not looking hard enough maybe?
A Google search page
-Chris
Here is a company that does this along with their yada yada. They like to freeze everything it seems.
I've read a very consistant stream of information over the course of many years. All supporting cryo treatment of gun barrels. There is no way I'm enough of a shooter to prove this one way or another. Olympic shooters may. Here is another link from a magasine that talks about this. Of course there is much more out there. Reading articles that go back far before the 'net was popular on this subject shows consistancy. Nothing yet that debunks the process. I'm not looking hard enough maybe?
A Google search page
-Chris
Well, I don't think you can prove anything even to yourself. The truth is too complicated for that. It's the lies that are simple. That's why we resort to our best friend, common sense.
As for your cryo barrel question, this is probably as close to the truth you'll ever get.
".... Does cryo-treating reduce stress in Hart Rifle Barrels?"
Cryo-treating steel has been in practice for many years to reduce stress in metal, and is very effective in some metals. The Crucible Specialties, Inc. 416R stainless steel we use to manufacture barrels is virtually unaffected by cryo-treating. Crucible's metallurgist have advised us that cryo-treating has no effect on 416R stainless steel. We have also independently tested several barrels and have been unable to detect any difference in the steel. We offer this service, as several of our customers believe in it and feel it gives them a competitive edge. The final choice is yours as to whether you feel this service is necessary.
http://www.hartbarrels.com/F_A_Q.shtml
poobah, you know that some 70 pct of your countrymen believe in ghosts? You call them whackos too?
As for your cryo barrel question, this is probably as close to the truth you'll ever get.
".... Does cryo-treating reduce stress in Hart Rifle Barrels?"
Cryo-treating steel has been in practice for many years to reduce stress in metal, and is very effective in some metals. The Crucible Specialties, Inc. 416R stainless steel we use to manufacture barrels is virtually unaffected by cryo-treating. Crucible's metallurgist have advised us that cryo-treating has no effect on 416R stainless steel. We have also independently tested several barrels and have been unable to detect any difference in the steel. We offer this service, as several of our customers believe in it and feel it gives them a competitive edge. The final choice is yours as to whether you feel this service is necessary.
http://www.hartbarrels.com/F_A_Q.shtml
poobah, you know that some 70 pct of your countrymen believe in ghosts? You call them whackos too?
poobah, c'mon. It's one think to do as Voltaire and poke fun of Leibniz and basically portray him as a wacko. But you cannot discard millions of people as wackos because of their beliefs. This partly illustrates my issues with you rationalists. That's a joke, but it's also dead serious.
http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html
Edit: Goes for you too, SY.
http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html
Edit: Goes for you too, SY.
I think that it's more likely that there's far more money to be made peddling bunk than debunking. I'm pretty disappointed at the lack of any real data; it's all just anecdote and claims promoted by people selling cryo services. Maybe there's something there, but the lack of real evidence is disheartening.
Poobah, the thing to be careful about is applying Arrhenius's Law where it isn't valid. For example, if I hold a fertilized egg for 60 days at 39 degrees, I'll get a chicken. If I hold it for 10 minutes at 90 degrees, I'll get a hard-boiled egg.
no loss of cryo...
only the solder joints will not be treated so the advantage is to cryo the full circuit.
I knew a fellow who ran his phono pre in a LN2 dewar. He said that you could be listening to a record and tell when the nitrogen had off gased. Have fun and let us know how it all turns out. Regards Moray James.
only the solder joints will not be treated so the advantage is to cryo the full circuit.
I knew a fellow who ran his phono pre in a LN2 dewar. He said that you could be listening to a record and tell when the nitrogen had off gased. Have fun and let us know how it all turns out. Regards Moray James.
SY,
Nice caveats... and you betcha... arrhenius breaks down when something melts or goes past it's elastic limit etc... I had to supervise the stuff, but I had a consulting buddy define the test structure (he was a corrosion guy too). Arrhenius is a deceptively simple equation... deceptive being key. Our expert would go a bit beyond arrhenius and establish max dT/dt's for us so that we didn't muddle things up with secondary and tertiary effects...
I just wanted jsa to get an idea about arrhenius since it was layed on him "a la crypto".
Nice caveats... and you betcha... arrhenius breaks down when something melts or goes past it's elastic limit etc... I had to supervise the stuff, but I had a consulting buddy define the test structure (he was a corrosion guy too). Arrhenius is a deceptively simple equation... deceptive being key. Our expert would go a bit beyond arrhenius and establish max dT/dt's for us so that we didn't muddle things up with secondary and tertiary effects...
I just wanted jsa to get an idea about arrhenius since it was layed on him "a la crypto".
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