Thats a pretty big modification you've done here. I have recently changed plans for my midrange to use an opened back. I plan to have all the walls with random cuts to give a chaotic dispersion pattern though (easy with laminate construction). I don't know how much this helps in pracice but perhaps reducing the effect of the parallel sides in your construction would help.
The driver shouldn't be responsible for any frequency response anomalies, unless it undergoes singificant change when pushed a bit harder? Finding the cause can be difficult. I used a computer frequency generator to find the resonances of my (currently horrible) enclosure by ear, then correlate them to the enclosure dimensions. It matched up pretty well, suggesting the enclosure is to blame.
The driver shouldn't be responsible for any frequency response anomalies, unless it undergoes singificant change when pushed a bit harder? Finding the cause can be difficult. I used a computer frequency generator to find the resonances of my (currently horrible) enclosure by ear, then correlate them to the enclosure dimensions. It matched up pretty well, suggesting the enclosure is to blame.
4fun said:
No, just my Yamaha HTR - centre channel out.
Dr.EM said:
Just to make sure we're on the same page - I was referring to the new centre channel speaker with the Seas coax above.
I have 2 thick pieces of rockwool behind the driver, on either side of the brace. Maybe an idea to add some at the extreme ends of the box.
Oops, we were on different pages 😱 . That is a shame though, the centre speaker looks really nice and I like the idea of the coaxial driver. There is probably some treatment you can do to the cabinet to help tame it still.
MJL21193 said:
You do realise that you now have may more mids coming too you. Also that measuring on axis probably will not tell you much ofthe story, because it is now very much a room effect !!
try putting firstly a 2" thick layer of mid density poly wadding behind the driver, then hook up a variable L-pad on the mids and reduce the level until it is correct. Then you can remove the L-pad and hard wire the necessary resistances.
Sorry, but for this one, you are going to have to use your ears instead of a microphone ;-)))
Andy Graddon said:
Hi Andy,
Once again, I think there's some confusion. My fault for sticking another project in here. The excruciating midrange is emanating from the Seas coax in the centre speaker. 😱
Midrange in the 3-way is very excellent now. Worth my effort to hack that hole in the box. 🙂 Just need to do the same for the other one - maybe on the weekend.
The jury is still out on the rear firing tweeter though. Nice to have the other one done to hear both speakers for the full effect.
As for the room, it's a bit "live". Massive brick fireplace along one wall, about 600 square feet of floor space, lots of reflective surfaces.
Various tools and construction clutter are temporary, result of my ongoing renovations. 🙂
EDIT: See a pair of eyes looking at you?
Attachments
It official: these are THE best speakers I've ever built, in every way. The recent changes to make them ported and to open the midrange and add the rear tweeters have put the final pieces in place.
With the other speaker done and the rear tweeter installed, I can hear the improvement. I can state definitively that these rear tweeters make a very positive improvement. Well worth the effort, I easily recommend it.
One thing: I have 3 feet of space behind these though, and that might make a difference. If you don't have the space it might not be worth doing.
I set up my measurement mic about 1.5M away and did some measurements, and used those to adjust both the output power to the drivers and the 10 band equalizer. I wound up with 2db cuts at 125 and 1000hz and a 4db cut at 500, with the objective to make the response as flat as possible.
Had a listen, and sounds good! Really good. A few more minor adjustments to the eq and it's close to perfect (for this room).
There is a level of detail coming through these speakers that I've never heard before (except live). Listening to The Dark Side Of The Moon, I heard detail I've never heard before through speakers (funny cigarette and headphones album). Powerful bass very evident in the opening heartbeat.
I have to admit to prior disappointments in my speaker builds. Even these, at first, did not live up to the expectations I had for them...
Not now.
Satisfied I am!
BTW,
While I had it set up, I did some measurements on the centre channel speaker too. Incredible, huge hump centered around 1.5khz - about 10db up! Open the HTR's menu to check the centre eq and found the problem: someone (maybe me 😱 ) tampered with the eq. I made these all flat and presto, no more SCREAMING mids. 🙂
With the other speaker done and the rear tweeter installed, I can hear the improvement. I can state definitively that these rear tweeters make a very positive improvement. Well worth the effort, I easily recommend it.
One thing: I have 3 feet of space behind these though, and that might make a difference. If you don't have the space it might not be worth doing.
I set up my measurement mic about 1.5M away and did some measurements, and used those to adjust both the output power to the drivers and the 10 band equalizer. I wound up with 2db cuts at 125 and 1000hz and a 4db cut at 500, with the objective to make the response as flat as possible.
Had a listen, and sounds good! Really good. A few more minor adjustments to the eq and it's close to perfect (for this room).
There is a level of detail coming through these speakers that I've never heard before (except live). Listening to The Dark Side Of The Moon, I heard detail I've never heard before through speakers (funny cigarette and headphones album). Powerful bass very evident in the opening heartbeat.
I have to admit to prior disappointments in my speaker builds. Even these, at first, did not live up to the expectations I had for them...
Not now.
Satisfied I am!
BTW,
While I had it set up, I did some measurements on the centre channel speaker too. Incredible, huge hump centered around 1.5khz - about 10db up! Open the HTR's menu to check the centre eq and found the problem: someone (maybe me 😱 ) tampered with the eq. I made these all flat and presto, no more SCREAMING mids. 🙂
Great to hear all your mods resulted in improvements,I was also worried for you about that center channel and glad it wasn't Tony's xover at fault.
Where are you in Ont?I ll drop by when you aren't home and borrow them for awhile.
Where are you in Ont?I ll drop by when you aren't home and borrow them for awhile.
F1 FAN said:
Well, my spider sense was tingling about these mods, so I've got to follow that. I'm glad they worked out too.
I may (will) change the centre to active at some point, but in the meantime this crossover is as good as they get.
I live just south of Barrie, but I have trained, bloodthirsty attack dog guarding these. Yup, 22 pound Labradoodle...a killer!
🙂
MJL21193 said:
Good to hear you are really happy with them, but John, you haven't EnABLed the drivers yet...
You should find another way of realizing the EQ. There isn't one of these made that doesn't get in the way of the music.
dave
planet10 said:
Hi Dave,
Actually, this is an Enabl free zone. We only engage in hard science here, not quasi-religious mumbo-jumbo. 😀
These speakers are so clear and well defined it would be very difficult to believe any improvement is possible. The biggest problem with these right now is the room they are in. Too big, too live. I'm preparing to sell this house in the spring/summer so my future listening room is an unknown.
In the meantime, the equalizer is helping to cope with this rooms deficits. Dave, I did some tests on the quality of this eq here, revealing it's not nearly as bad as all of you audiophiles make it out to be. Using it in moderation, just to cut frequency bands is not a bad compromise.
I'd rather listen to the music when it sounds right, rather than worry about how true it is to the original.
MJL21193 said:
Watch out, you could well find yourself eating your words 🙂
I thot similarily till i got hit over the head with the difference
Around here Audiophile has taken on a negative connotation... i expressed my opinions on that EQ in that thread, blind tests here have not changed that. If you can live with it, that just shows that there are huge amounts of improvement possible and that you can look forward to even better sound down the road if you continue to pursue it
dave
planet10 said:
I've done that before, but I don't think it'll happen this time.
planet10 said:
The effect the eq is having is subtle. Switching it in and out of the path shows just how little it's changing the sound.
If it's colouring the sound is it not unlike a tube amp in this regard? - making the music more enjoyable?
Is that so wrong? 🙂
Sorry for accusing you of being an audiophile. Such a dirty word around here.
MJL21193 said:
By around here i meant locally, didn't mean to imply the forum....
If you are hearing little when you swicth it in/out that just shows how much the rest of your kit is masking things. A good tube amp is all about removing the grunge between the source & your ears ... the triode is still the most linear amplification device invented by man. Sounds like you are mixing up what tubes sound liek with what vintage tube gear sounds like (ie largely squishy power supplies and poor caps and other passive parts).
dave
planet10 said:
No, you're not getting it. Nothing is being masked. I'm hearing detail that I didn't know existed before, and that's from day one when I finished the active amp and connected these speakers.
Changes since then have improved the tone, not the detail or the clarity.
Why don't you drop by tomorrow afternoon and have a listen? 🙂
MJL21193 said:
I know what you are implying, but i am saying that even as good as it seems, if you can stand to have that EQ in the system, there is still a long way that it can go.
Relative to where it has been, it might be fantastic, but the evidence is saying that it can get even better yet in the future. That you can enjoy the music more than before is a very good thing, but don't be fooled into thinking that it can't be taken further -- and even greater enjoyment of the music can't be a bad thing -- should be something to look forward to. In the meantime you have something now that will aid you in exploring & enjoying further & deeper than before.
Unfortunatly i have appointments all day... 🙂
dave
planet10 said:
Relative to the other speakers I've built and all of the ones I've heard. I'm not saying further improvement is not possible, just diminishing returns.
I'm sure that at some point in the future I'll try some more improvements. In the meantime, I can enjoy this as the first speaker project where I am completely satisfied with the end results.
planet10 said:
Some other time, perhaps?
😉
planet10 said:
Maybe, some day. 🙂
Differences in what we define as "sounds good" may exist. If I were to sit in front of your speakers and not like the way they sound, would I be wrong?
I think we can all recognize bad speakers, but the differences between what one calls excellent and another calls mediocre comes down to a matter of personal taste really.
Not that I'm complaining...but,
Thinking about what Dave said and what the equalizer is doing, I'd like to tackle this at point further up the line: I think I'd like to try these at different crossover points. Maybe by moving the xover points up to ~400 and 4K and changing the slope of the mid pass I'd get some attenuation at the 400hz xover point.
Worth thinking about.
Kicking myself now for not building that functionality into the active amp. Maybe a redesign of the circuit is in the works.
I have been thinking about a stand for the centre speaker. I want the centre oriented the same way as the mains, upright.
Basic idea:
Attachments
- Status
- Not open for further replies.