hey vacuphile
your not one of those people who spreads rumours and dis-information are you?
F Toole was hired by JBL as a consultant but for a different reason, his work at the NRC on loudspeaker measurements.
as far as the Paragon goes check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhZseKzkXIo
your not one of those people who spreads rumours and dis-information are you?
F Toole was hired by JBL as a consultant but for a different reason, his work at the NRC on loudspeaker measurements.
as far as the Paragon goes check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhZseKzkXIo
Floyd Toole was hired to provide a scientific underpinning for the loudspeaker department. Not as a consultant but to provide guidance over decades.The Paragon is from way before that time, when the designs were mainly judged by ear to conform to a certain "sound".
The M2 is where it is at this very moment, based on research by Toole and Olive. So no, no disinformation. Things have actually gotten better over time.
The M2 is where it is at this very moment, based on research by Toole and Olive. So no, no disinformation. Things have actually gotten better over time.
M2 is for Indoor Venues
The venue here is a very unique and outdoors. As far as the Ranger's work is concerned, I suspect you have never auditioned or measured the output of a Paragon; and thus, you are depending on hearsay as a basis for your critique here. I have yet to hear a flawless reproduction of a musical performance, so all loudspeaker systems are easy marks for negative criticism from an armchair outside an acoustics lab. WHG
The venue here is a very unique and outdoors. As far as the Ranger's work is concerned, I suspect you have never auditioned or measured the output of a Paragon; and thus, you are depending on hearsay as a basis for your critique here. I have yet to hear a flawless reproduction of a musical performance, so all loudspeaker systems are easy marks for negative criticism from an armchair outside an acoustics lab. WHG
the M2 was introduced in 2013, six years after Toole left Harman International his tenure there was 16 years not decades.
a concrete Paragon would be something to reckon with!
a concrete Paragon would be something to reckon with!
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Floyd Tool still is consultant for Harman, so yes, that is decades, and the research he founded will continue to guide loudspeaker engineers not only at Samsung, but elsewhere too. The M2 is a direct result of the impact he and Olive found controlled directivity had on perceived sound quality. Amongst other things.
The Paragon might have been impressive for its era, but I doubt even that. The concept is fuzzy and if it had real advantages, it would be still in production. Or clones of it. And there aren't. In that era, Altec Lansing ran circles around stuff like this.
The Paragon might have been impressive for its era, but I doubt even that. The concept is fuzzy and if it had real advantages, it would be still in production. Or clones of it. And there aren't. In that era, Altec Lansing ran circles around stuff like this.
JBL made round about a 1000 units of the Paragon it was a very expensive speaker so production that was "on an order basis" ceased, but the Chinese and Japanese are making replica Paragons right along with the price tags!
i guess you know more about all things audio vacuphile i defer to your wisdom....
i guess you know more about all things audio vacuphile i defer to your wisdom....
James Bullough Lansing's buyout by Altec Service Corp made it Altec Lansing after which he founded JBL both companies tech legacy came from the same source so tread lightly...
maybe because i've actually had the good fortune of hearing one i get touchy when i hear it being dissed by someone who hasn't....
maybe because i've actually had the good fortune of hearing one i get touchy when i hear it being dissed by someone who hasn't....
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to Entropy :
two bass horns or not two bass horn that was the question,
whether tis nobler in the mind to to suffer the slings and arrows of internet forums or to take arms against a sea of concrete....
aye there's the rub!
two bass horns or not two bass horn that was the question,
whether tis nobler in the mind to to suffer the slings and arrows of internet forums or to take arms against a sea of concrete....
aye there's the rub!
Wrong!
The only deterrents to the popularity of the Paragon are cost, manufacturing complexity, size, and now availability. Depending on condition they now sell for over $25,000 USD. Your negative assertions lack technical merit as they have no basses in fact that are relevant to making a rational performance assessment. WHG
The only deterrents to the popularity of the Paragon are cost, manufacturing complexity, size, and now availability. Depending on condition they now sell for over $25,000 USD. Your negative assertions lack technical merit as they have no basses in fact that are relevant to making a rational performance assessment. WHG
Originally Posted by weltersys
The "new" LAB 12 was designed around the turn of the century, I was late to the party and got my first units July of 2003, my first purchase of a horn driver with such a low FS and super stiff, heavy cone.
Prior to that, Tom Danley's servo-motor belt drive units had far more displacement potential than professional drivers, though by the mid 1990s they had been rendered obsolete by drivers such as AuraSound's 1808, the 1997 spec sheet copy below. Funny, (in retrospect) I was so caught up in driver "sensitivity" specifications back then that I paid little attention to their displacement- the AuraSound 1808 had considerably more than a pair of LAB 12", though the LAB 12 had more displacement per dollar.
I had mostly forgot about how advanced the 1808 was until 2015 when I started scanning old documents to eliminate hundreds of pounds of paper before moving cross country. Although the 1808 has great displacement capability, the mms is/was too low for low distortion in high compression ratio applications, something that does not show up in simulations, but can also result in ripped or kinked cones when pushed to Xmax.
Eminence has not made much advancement in LF horn drivers since the introduction of the LAB 12, but B&C and many smaller companies have, sold off my last (spare) LAB 12 last year.
I was contacted by PM several years ago on this forum by a man who wrote he had purchased the old Aura neo magnet structures, and was planning to re-issue drivers. I was unable to get a response back, and could find no web presence of his enterprise, a shame, as the 1808 magnet structure is still one of the best designs.
Iand,
I'm not thinking of Seismic Systems in Redondo Beach CA, run by a guy called Barry Bozeman since whom ever contacted me did not return my repeated attempts to contact him.
I notice the OP is still proceeding with no compass, like Dylan's song "No Direction Home"..
Merry Xmas to All,
Art
The "new" LAB 12 was designed around the turn of the century, I was late to the party and got my first units July of 2003, my first purchase of a horn driver with such a low FS and super stiff, heavy cone.
Prior to that, Tom Danley's servo-motor belt drive units had far more displacement potential than professional drivers, though by the mid 1990s they had been rendered obsolete by drivers such as AuraSound's 1808, the 1997 spec sheet copy below. Funny, (in retrospect) I was so caught up in driver "sensitivity" specifications back then that I paid little attention to their displacement- the AuraSound 1808 had considerably more than a pair of LAB 12", though the LAB 12 had more displacement per dollar.
I had mostly forgot about how advanced the 1808 was until 2015 when I started scanning old documents to eliminate hundreds of pounds of paper before moving cross country. Although the 1808 has great displacement capability, the mms is/was too low for low distortion in high compression ratio applications, something that does not show up in simulations, but can also result in ripped or kinked cones when pushed to Xmax.
Eminence has not made much advancement in LF horn drivers since the introduction of the LAB 12, but B&C and many smaller companies have, sold off my last (spare) LAB 12 last year.
I was contacted by PM several years ago on this forum by a man who wrote he had purchased the old Aura neo magnet structures, and was planning to re-issue drivers. I was unable to get a response back, and could find no web presence of his enterprise, a shame, as the 1808 magnet structure is still one of the best designs.
Iand,
I'm not thinking of Seismic Systems in Redondo Beach CA, run by a guy called Barry Bozeman since whom ever contacted me did not return my repeated attempts to contact him.
I notice the OP is still proceeding with no compass, like Dylan's song "No Direction Home"..
Merry Xmas to All,
Art
Hi Y'all,
Post #1150: "Merry Xmas to All"
There is a sentiment I can agree with. 🙂
Merry Christmas to All and all the Best for 2017.
Regards,
Post #1150: "Merry Xmas to All"
There is a sentiment I can agree with. 🙂
Merry Christmas to All and all the Best for 2017.
Regards,
If they were even half as good as you think, they would still be made commercially. But heck, there are also people who admire Karlsson designs and believe they are the best there is. I stopped arguing about that as well.
All-horn system, with straight concrete 100Hz horns. If you hunt around, you can find pictures of the construction.
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Site - The concrete midbass horns: The story continues>
Some ideas, such as the (swappable) plywood throats, look like great examples of what the OP was speculating about earlier.
The phase plugs look good, but the method (stacked ply) seems like overkill for an application that doesn't need strength. Too much work & wasted ply for my taste.
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Site - The concrete midbass horns: The story continues>
Some ideas, such as the (swappable) plywood throats, look like great examples of what the OP was speculating about earlier.
The phase plugs look good, but the method (stacked ply) seems like overkill for an application that doesn't need strength. Too much work & wasted ply for my taste.
It's not Happening
Interesting Project. However, the use of wood products in an outdoor application is contra indicated, due to the moisture invasion that is certain. When not in use the, drivers need to be protected by moisture proof closures. WHG
N.B.: I suspect to OP has abandoned his thread. Some day someone will build an spectacular acoustical venue, but the intended audience has to be much larger for it to be economically viable. For now we will have to settle for the too-loud, bandwidth limited venues of the typical rock concert. WHG
Interesting Project. However, the use of wood products in an outdoor application is contra indicated, due to the moisture invasion that is certain. When not in use the, drivers need to be protected by moisture proof closures. WHG
N.B.: I suspect to OP has abandoned his thread. Some day someone will build an spectacular acoustical venue, but the intended audience has to be much larger for it to be economically viable. For now we will have to settle for the too-loud, bandwidth limited venues of the typical rock concert. WHG
wproposed eather potection
Hi there: Several hundred posts ago, when the project gathered the horns in the center, OP proposed enclosing the throat ends of the horn(s) in a small building, which also provides weather protected space for electrical gear and amplifiers. Weather/varmint/rodent protection needed for the mouth end was mentioned but not decided at that time. I anticipate OP to reappear shortly, since we all share his enthusiasm for the project. ...regards,Michael
Hi there: Several hundred posts ago, when the project gathered the horns in the center, OP proposed enclosing the throat ends of the horn(s) in a small building, which also provides weather protected space for electrical gear and amplifiers. Weather/varmint/rodent protection needed for the mouth end was mentioned but not decided at that time. I anticipate OP to reappear shortly, since we all share his enthusiasm for the project. ...regards,Michael
I don't think the OP has abandoned the project, just the thread ! Due to you know what 😉 As things have cooled off now, there is no reason for him not to post etc again
Closure
After receiving a 100+ messages of varying degrees of quality, I suspect the OP is off elsewhere to meet his goals. N.B.: To get good sound at a hot tub, some good earphones on Bluetooth would get the job done for a lot less effort and money even if they had to be replaced frequently due to inadvertent dives. WHG
After receiving a 100+ messages of varying degrees of quality, I suspect the OP is off elsewhere to meet his goals. N.B.: To get good sound at a hot tub, some good earphones on Bluetooth would get the job done for a lot less effort and money even if they had to be replaced frequently due to inadvertent dives. WHG