#5 & #6
Hi,
Very well put Dean.
I agree one 100 % on both counts.
Elso,
Your message is rather ambiguous, do you mind clarifying?
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Very well put Dean.
I agree one 100 % on both counts.
Elso,
Your message is rather ambiguous, do you mind clarifying?
Cheers,😉
I'm coming to this one a bit late with my 2 cents.
I believe that many of our contributors who offer a wealth of helpful advice and knowledge - at no charge - have small commercial concerns of their own.
Speaking for myself, I'm happy to help out where I can, time permitting. However, I would also like to create some market awareness for my speakers. I realize that my customers are not on this forum but believe that forum members can be influential in "building a buzz" in the market at large.
Its never easy for new companies, particularly small companies, to survive and thrive in this market (against some quite large competitors) and often the only difference between the professional and the amateur hobbyists is in the taking of a decision.
Steve
I believe that many of our contributors who offer a wealth of helpful advice and knowledge - at no charge - have small commercial concerns of their own.
Speaking for myself, I'm happy to help out where I can, time permitting. However, I would also like to create some market awareness for my speakers. I realize that my customers are not on this forum but believe that forum members can be influential in "building a buzz" in the market at large.
Its never easy for new companies, particularly small companies, to survive and thrive in this market (against some quite large competitors) and often the only difference between the professional and the amateur hobbyists is in the taking of a decision.
Steve
I thought it might be appropriate to re-start this thread/discussion. There have been a few instances recently that have cut to the heart of this topic. Ihave alway felt that we needed a separate commercial forum for posting discussion on particular commercial products.
No.... 😀fdegrove said:
Actually, I don't want to pick at open wounds. Surffice it to say that with the influx of new members and old members, some of whom are in the audio business, there have been instances that were less then completely ethical. It goes beyond the idea of spam. It includes the ethics doing business in todays internet world.
Manufacturers posting under their own name should be OK. "Overposting" is a relative thing and should be handled on a case by case basis. Non moderators should refrain from being the police to keep noise down. Company names should be reserved for said companies.
The recent LC Audio thread left me with bitter taste in my mouth - sure, LC Audio were somewhat thin-skinned, but hey would you want to share your secrets while having to put up with pedantic stuff?
Are we forgetting to be polite?
Are we forgetting why we are here?
Are we feeding our ego's or our quest for knowledge?
Is this not supposed to be fun?
Petter
The recent LC Audio thread left me with bitter taste in my mouth - sure, LC Audio were somewhat thin-skinned, but hey would you want to share your secrets while having to put up with pedantic stuff?
Are we forgetting to be polite?
Are we forgetting why we are here?
Are we feeding our ego's or our quest for knowledge?
Is this not supposed to be fun?
Petter
if there were an "opt-in" or "Opt-out" for commercial stuff -- i wouldn't object.
what everyone hates are the hundreds of daily spam-mails.
what everyone hates are the hundreds of daily spam-mails.
Petter,Petter said:
The forum with over 6000 member is an easy target for the thousands of audio companies who are just looking for places thay can advertise for free. If we allow one, than two, or three, where does it stop?
The comparison was made between Mr. Pass and LC Audio. This made me want to puke. There are many people on the forum that don't hawk their wares in every other post. Some of them, you'll never even know they were in the business. LC has been here for 24 posts and more then half of them had something to do with his business.
As long as politeness prevails, why not?
Thus far, I have not seen anything that I felt was truly objectionable. I like others, enjoy this site because of the DIY "feel". But, I have no illusions regarding the need for the various manufacturers to make money and think it's unrealistic for anyone to be expected to work in the audio field for a living and never mention their products...
As I stated in a different thread, thus far nobody is spamming or forcing me to follow their website link. Sure, the subtle hint is there but I really don't feel it's any different from an individual buying 500 fets, taking the time to match them for his own use and selling what he doesn't need...
I view it as a gift that certain manufacturers are willing to share their schematics and give hints on their products as we attempt to recreate them. Actually, I find is unbelieveable!!! What is the problem if they post it on their site (FOR FREE) and then link to it?
I also fully agree with Hugh's post as being realistic. I can't count how many times that I've spread the word regarding Pass products not because I've been spammed but because I know and respect the talent that designed them and I have a bit of insight into the process... This is advertising that money can't buy and in my case would have never happened if not for this site.
My biggest concern of the creation of a separate manufacturer area is being forced to search more threads because they were started by a manufacturer. I don't want to see things getting buried...
Lastly, I would also like to thank each person for their contributions to this site whether commercial or not. I value each post very highly and don't feel that I even need to turn on my spam filter...
Best Regards,
Thus far, I have not seen anything that I felt was truly objectionable. I like others, enjoy this site because of the DIY "feel". But, I have no illusions regarding the need for the various manufacturers to make money and think it's unrealistic for anyone to be expected to work in the audio field for a living and never mention their products...
As I stated in a different thread, thus far nobody is spamming or forcing me to follow their website link. Sure, the subtle hint is there but I really don't feel it's any different from an individual buying 500 fets, taking the time to match them for his own use and selling what he doesn't need...
I view it as a gift that certain manufacturers are willing to share their schematics and give hints on their products as we attempt to recreate them. Actually, I find is unbelieveable!!! What is the problem if they post it on their site (FOR FREE) and then link to it?
I also fully agree with Hugh's post as being realistic. I can't count how many times that I've spread the word regarding Pass products not because I've been spammed but because I know and respect the talent that designed them and I have a bit of insight into the process... This is advertising that money can't buy and in my case would have never happened if not for this site.
My biggest concern of the creation of a separate manufacturer area is being forced to search more threads because they were started by a manufacturer. I don't want to see things getting buried...
Lastly, I would also like to thank each person for their contributions to this site whether commercial or not. I value each post very highly and don't feel that I even need to turn on my spam filter...
Best Regards,
Rod,
How many of the other manufacturers build products for the DIY community? How is what he's done different from Pass DIY? Nelson doesn't push us to his site but we all know it's there...
Perhaps the LC situation could be a lesson for all of us in how to deal with this type of situation.
Where do you feel the line was crossed? Lars posted schematics to a current product for us to look at. He also gave us the parts used in his clock when we were struggling to figure them out (another current product). Why was this such a problem in his case and in the case of others not?
Perhaps he was more direct regarding his posting but as I have stated elsewhere, some of that could also be cultural/translation...
I for one am very willing to look past the directness of the posts for the information that they contained. Further, should I not decide to build my own clock, then I will either order one from Lars or Elso (or perhaps both)...
I also think that if the moderators had felt that the posts were inappropriate, then they should have contacted him directly via email and let him know the unwritten rules of the forum. Better yet, perhaps it would be appropriate to formulate certain rules in writing for all to follow (both manufacturers and individuals) that way it would be very clear...
I feel him being driven away in the manner that he was was completely inappropriate.
Just my thoughts... (I'm still trying to understand where the real problem was...)
How many of the other manufacturers build products for the DIY community? How is what he's done different from Pass DIY? Nelson doesn't push us to his site but we all know it's there...
Perhaps the LC situation could be a lesson for all of us in how to deal with this type of situation.
Where do you feel the line was crossed? Lars posted schematics to a current product for us to look at. He also gave us the parts used in his clock when we were struggling to figure them out (another current product). Why was this such a problem in his case and in the case of others not?
Perhaps he was more direct regarding his posting but as I have stated elsewhere, some of that could also be cultural/translation...
I for one am very willing to look past the directness of the posts for the information that they contained. Further, should I not decide to build my own clock, then I will either order one from Lars or Elso (or perhaps both)...
I also think that if the moderators had felt that the posts were inappropriate, then they should have contacted him directly via email and let him know the unwritten rules of the forum. Better yet, perhaps it would be appropriate to formulate certain rules in writing for all to follow (both manufacturers and individuals) that way it would be very clear...
I feel him being driven away in the manner that he was was completely inappropriate.
Just my thoughts... (I'm still trying to understand where the real problem was...)
Hi,
Thanks both Peter and Rodd...
Looks as if I'll be reading the thread 'till early morning.
From what I've read so far I sit with Fred Dieckman, most members running an audio business have been helpful so far.
Like Jocko, Fred and no doubt countless other members I too try to help out new and not so new members on the forum.
Sometimes people are so grateful they offer goods in exchange or whatever they feel commensurate as compensation for the help given.
I never accepted anything from anyone even at the risk of offending them.
To me this is what the forum spirit is all about; we just try to help one another out. It's a give and take situation and it wouldn't be any different even if I was runnning a business.
No doubt many of us can identify with what was just described?
If you don't want to share at least some of your knowledge/experience then why join a forum?
To promote your product freely?
Don't think so. As a forum, just like a chatroom, is all about Q&A. Without this there's no communication.
Would joining a forum as a business help sell product? Sure.
But not without effort from that company. Effort that's been given in a way of openness towards the questions asked by prospective or existing customers not necessarilly about a specific product but a technique used for example.
As I understand it the "problem" could possibly be solved by inviting infringing companies to subscribe to a locally hosted dedicated commercial forum.
Whether that would be a paying membership or not is not up to us to decide...well, not me anyway...
Either way, within this new entity appropriate forum rules need to be thought through so no direct competitor battles can occur...
Or whatever friction could possibly occur...either way it should be closely monitored and once you deal with paying members which represent corporations things can get tricky pretty fast.
Not something I'd undertake lightly...
For the time being I'd suggest moderator interference wherever they judge the forum rules are overstepped by companies pushing product through the forum no matter how.
Miraculously this hasn't happened often in the past 18 months...I recall a case of shortlived spam but other than that most business members have always been extraordinarilly helpful.
Sorry for the long post.
I just wanted it to reflect my experience for the time being.
Now I'll read the rest of that thread even if it's 3.30 in the morning here....
Cheers,😉
Thanks both Peter and Rodd...
Looks as if I'll be reading the thread 'till early morning.
From what I've read so far I sit with Fred Dieckman, most members running an audio business have been helpful so far.
Like Jocko, Fred and no doubt countless other members I too try to help out new and not so new members on the forum.
Sometimes people are so grateful they offer goods in exchange or whatever they feel commensurate as compensation for the help given.
I never accepted anything from anyone even at the risk of offending them.
To me this is what the forum spirit is all about; we just try to help one another out. It's a give and take situation and it wouldn't be any different even if I was runnning a business.
No doubt many of us can identify with what was just described?
If you don't want to share at least some of your knowledge/experience then why join a forum?
To promote your product freely?
Don't think so. As a forum, just like a chatroom, is all about Q&A. Without this there's no communication.
Would joining a forum as a business help sell product? Sure.
But not without effort from that company. Effort that's been given in a way of openness towards the questions asked by prospective or existing customers not necessarilly about a specific product but a technique used for example.
As I understand it the "problem" could possibly be solved by inviting infringing companies to subscribe to a locally hosted dedicated commercial forum.
Whether that would be a paying membership or not is not up to us to decide...well, not me anyway...
Either way, within this new entity appropriate forum rules need to be thought through so no direct competitor battles can occur...
Or whatever friction could possibly occur...either way it should be closely monitored and once you deal with paying members which represent corporations things can get tricky pretty fast.
Not something I'd undertake lightly...
For the time being I'd suggest moderator interference wherever they judge the forum rules are overstepped by companies pushing product through the forum no matter how.
Miraculously this hasn't happened often in the past 18 months...I recall a case of shortlived spam but other than that most business members have always been extraordinarilly helpful.
Sorry for the long post.
I just wanted it to reflect my experience for the time being.
Now I'll read the rest of that thread even if it's 3.30 in the morning here....
Cheers,😉
Frank, 3:30am, now that's dedication!!
In all this brouhaha, no-one has yet suggested the bleeding obvious:
1. There are disproportionate sensitivities about commercial posts here. People on these forums are generally pretty smart; let the individual figure out who is making a grab for free advertizing. In truth, if the post is wildly commercial the thread will not last, or a moderator will move it elsewhere, effectively delivering the kiss of death.
2. It is clearly not in the interests of any audio manufacturer to run foul of this list. Most sell on their reputation; sales are terrible where reputations are besmirched. Microsoft prospers only until the market perceives that the quality of their products no longer balances out their Von Clauswitz business strategies. I see no evidence of Lars being anything other than mildly cheeky. Fine. This is neither insulting, nor offensive, nor immoral. In any event, his products are good, and he has a right to a voice!
3. Fred and Jocko Homo, bless them, both cyber mates of mine, and both incredibly experienced and clever, but calm down!! I will bombard you with dubious circuit schematics for your detailed analysis unless you show restraint. As engineers go, you are far too articulate!
Cheers,
Hugh
In all this brouhaha, no-one has yet suggested the bleeding obvious:
1. There are disproportionate sensitivities about commercial posts here. People on these forums are generally pretty smart; let the individual figure out who is making a grab for free advertizing. In truth, if the post is wildly commercial the thread will not last, or a moderator will move it elsewhere, effectively delivering the kiss of death.
2. It is clearly not in the interests of any audio manufacturer to run foul of this list. Most sell on their reputation; sales are terrible where reputations are besmirched. Microsoft prospers only until the market perceives that the quality of their products no longer balances out their Von Clauswitz business strategies. I see no evidence of Lars being anything other than mildly cheeky. Fine. This is neither insulting, nor offensive, nor immoral. In any event, his products are good, and he has a right to a voice!
3. Fred and Jocko Homo, bless them, both cyber mates of mine, and both incredibly experienced and clever, but calm down!! I will bombard you with dubious circuit schematics for your detailed analysis unless you show restraint. As engineers go, you are far too articulate!
Cheers,
Hugh
Having followed this forum for a few years now before finally registering, I hope this post doesn't aggravate anyone.
Comparing posts for the past few years, it seems to me as if two developments are converging into a problem:
a) People's hides are growing thinner, and
b) Posts are getting more aggressive.
Regarding the LC Audio post, for example, it may be that some things are lost in the translation (I am from Norway, and English is obviously not my native language), but rather clearly, some things are neither relevant (particularly some of the posts following Lars Clausen's departure from the forum), nor in the best interests of constructive communication.
Coming from a variety of backgrounds, with differing cultures and languages, the members of this forum have, and should have, differing opinions. I just hope we can try to express them more carefully, bearing these differences in mind, and that we can try to ignore whatever barbs we may think we see embedded in a post.
As to whether seperating off a commercial forum would be an idea, I think that would be a very large can of worms that really does not need to be opened. Administrative overhead on doing anything commercial quickly grows to a headache that will outweigh and outlive any benefits, as the task of determining which material is commercial or not still remains.
What solves the problem, is exercising our right to read or ignore posts as we see fit, and letting the moderators do their job. We all have different thresholds with regards to what level of commercial interest we tolerate the expression of in a mail; the constructive approach, is to let the moderators exercise their privileges, using the thresholds they have been directed to use. As nonmoderators, we should ignore that which aggravates us, or at most bring it to the attention of the moderators, not reply to it.
Adding more fuel has rarely been the best way to extinguish a fire in my experience.
My 2 cents.
Comparing posts for the past few years, it seems to me as if two developments are converging into a problem:
a) People's hides are growing thinner, and
b) Posts are getting more aggressive.
Regarding the LC Audio post, for example, it may be that some things are lost in the translation (I am from Norway, and English is obviously not my native language), but rather clearly, some things are neither relevant (particularly some of the posts following Lars Clausen's departure from the forum), nor in the best interests of constructive communication.
Coming from a variety of backgrounds, with differing cultures and languages, the members of this forum have, and should have, differing opinions. I just hope we can try to express them more carefully, bearing these differences in mind, and that we can try to ignore whatever barbs we may think we see embedded in a post.
As to whether seperating off a commercial forum would be an idea, I think that would be a very large can of worms that really does not need to be opened. Administrative overhead on doing anything commercial quickly grows to a headache that will outweigh and outlive any benefits, as the task of determining which material is commercial or not still remains.
What solves the problem, is exercising our right to read or ignore posts as we see fit, and letting the moderators do their job. We all have different thresholds with regards to what level of commercial interest we tolerate the expression of in a mail; the constructive approach, is to let the moderators exercise their privileges, using the thresholds they have been directed to use. As nonmoderators, we should ignore that which aggravates us, or at most bring it to the attention of the moderators, not reply to it.
Adding more fuel has rarely been the best way to extinguish a fire in my experience.
My 2 cents.
I'm not speaking here as a moderator, but as diy forum member.
I agree with Apogee on everything he said so far, both in this thread and in the other. LC Audio was not advertising their products here; whenever he posted, it was always related to inquiries by other members. He sells kits which are directed at diy market and I don't see a reason why this would hurt diy forum members. Just yesterday I browsed through their site and found plenty of useful info (like for instance active crossover schematic I'd like to try). If it wasn't for LC Audio posts (even the spam), I wouldn't be looking through their site. The Sidewinder preamp also seems to be interesting and gave me some new ideas.
The way I see Fred and his remarks is like that: some of the members here are actually building something and are constantly looking for inspiration, in difference to other members, who are mostly here for entertainment and release of their disatisfaction with whatever bothers them.
I agree with Apogee on everything he said so far, both in this thread and in the other. LC Audio was not advertising their products here; whenever he posted, it was always related to inquiries by other members. He sells kits which are directed at diy market and I don't see a reason why this would hurt diy forum members. Just yesterday I browsed through their site and found plenty of useful info (like for instance active crossover schematic I'd like to try). If it wasn't for LC Audio posts (even the spam), I wouldn't be looking through their site. The Sidewinder preamp also seems to be interesting and gave me some new ideas.
The way I see Fred and his remarks is like that: some of the members here are actually building something and are constantly looking for inspiration, in difference to other members, who are mostly here for entertainment and release of their disatisfaction with whatever bothers them.
LC posted this in July in this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=203699#post203699
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21221
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not out to get LC, but where is the line? Is the hipe exceptable because we get spoon fed some information?
So why would he start this thread yesterday and start with this post?LC Audio said:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21221
LC Audio said:
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not out to get LC, but where is the line? Is the hipe exceptable because we get spoon fed some information?
I don't know why he started that thread. Maybe he was looking indeed for a good low cost preamp, or maybe he just wanted to participate in a forum not talking about his products. The way his inquiry was met, wasn't anything to be proud of.
As to the quoted paragraph, because of that I had a chance to look at the schematic of Sidewinder preamp. It's not like he says he has a preamp and wants to sell it. He says he has a preamp and invites everybody to look at the schematic. Unless someone isn't in diy hobby, I see something wrong with critisizing a post like that.
As to the quoted paragraph, because of that I had a chance to look at the schematic of Sidewinder preamp. It's not like he says he has a preamp and wants to sell it. He says he has a preamp and invites everybody to look at the schematic. Unless someone isn't in diy hobby, I see something wrong with critisizing a post like that.
I am against the concept of a manufacturers forum. There are other sites that have this feature. I suggest that we leave it on their doorsteps.
But if we did.........what if Guido Tent (who is out of town for 3 weeks) decided to post jitter test results of every clock on the market? I suspect that certain thin-skinned individuals would squeal like stuck pigs if they took exception to his findings. (I know what they are, so I have good reasons for thinking such.)
And comparing Nelson (or even John Curl who makes no DIY-friendly equipment) to any one us here who has/had an audio business is an insult to those two men. They were at the forefront of what became the high-end market. The rest of us combined are not in their league, we make no pretenses otherwise.
I do not have a problem with Herr Lars being here, even if he uses his company name as his user name. But abusing the privilege of being here by mentioning what he makes in every other post is nonsense. Is there really anyone here who would need to be reminded that many times: "Hey, I have a site where I sell neat stuff. Come look at it. Spend freely." ? I think that we all can figure out that he has a site, and can find it just by looking at his user profile without being hit over the head with it. If that is too hard for some neophytes, then most of what I contribute will be lost on them. That's life.
If anyone thinks that for one minute that I do not build stuff, don't wander over here. There is not enough room to get in the door, unless you are as skinny as me, without tripping over numerous projects "in the works". Some of it is for my amusement, and I share stuff that I feel is relevant, and comprehensible by most of the gang. Some is paid for by commercial ventures, and all of that remains off limits to all except who is funding it.
Today I am futzing with clock recovery noise on SPDIF RXs. When I have something to contribute, you guys will hear about it.
For those of you who may have missed it, you might be surprised that there is more than one forum member that I beat on regularly in public, yet we manage to exchange friendly e-mails all the time. Usually about common interests other than DIY, since we never will agree on that subject. Despite our night-and-day approach, I still enjoy their correspondence. The reciprocal must also be true as we continue exchanging our thoughts and experiences.
So, anyone who wants to criticize me is free to. But if they don't have the chutzpah to contact me, well, then maybe they really don't want to exchange experiences after all. Perhaps they are just here to hear themselves talk. Or hawk their wares.
I'm going back to my TDR............
Jocko
But if we did.........what if Guido Tent (who is out of town for 3 weeks) decided to post jitter test results of every clock on the market? I suspect that certain thin-skinned individuals would squeal like stuck pigs if they took exception to his findings. (I know what they are, so I have good reasons for thinking such.)
And comparing Nelson (or even John Curl who makes no DIY-friendly equipment) to any one us here who has/had an audio business is an insult to those two men. They were at the forefront of what became the high-end market. The rest of us combined are not in their league, we make no pretenses otherwise.
I do not have a problem with Herr Lars being here, even if he uses his company name as his user name. But abusing the privilege of being here by mentioning what he makes in every other post is nonsense. Is there really anyone here who would need to be reminded that many times: "Hey, I have a site where I sell neat stuff. Come look at it. Spend freely." ? I think that we all can figure out that he has a site, and can find it just by looking at his user profile without being hit over the head with it. If that is too hard for some neophytes, then most of what I contribute will be lost on them. That's life.
If anyone thinks that for one minute that I do not build stuff, don't wander over here. There is not enough room to get in the door, unless you are as skinny as me, without tripping over numerous projects "in the works". Some of it is for my amusement, and I share stuff that I feel is relevant, and comprehensible by most of the gang. Some is paid for by commercial ventures, and all of that remains off limits to all except who is funding it.
Today I am futzing with clock recovery noise on SPDIF RXs. When I have something to contribute, you guys will hear about it.
For those of you who may have missed it, you might be surprised that there is more than one forum member that I beat on regularly in public, yet we manage to exchange friendly e-mails all the time. Usually about common interests other than DIY, since we never will agree on that subject. Despite our night-and-day approach, I still enjoy their correspondence. The reciprocal must also be true as we continue exchanging our thoughts and experiences.
So, anyone who wants to criticize me is free to. But if they don't have the chutzpah to contact me, well, then maybe they really don't want to exchange experiences after all. Perhaps they are just here to hear themselves talk. Or hawk their wares.
I'm going back to my TDR............
Jocko
Hi,
Come to think of it we always talk DIYaudio in our e-mail exchanges, hardly anything audio....we must be very wise men?
Or just very DEVOted?
Come to think of it we always talk DIYaudio in our e-mail exchanges, hardly anything audio....we must be very wise men?
Or just very DEVOted?
Quack like Duck
Hahahahahaha, Jocko,
Quack like a stuck duck would be more appropiate...
Measurements may be interesting but for me only one thing counts: the sonical result. By nature this is subjective. No problem for me. Stradivarius did not have any measuring equipment either.😀 😉
I am looking forward to your measurements.
Currently I can compare SPDIF with I2S direct with the flip of a switch.😉
Jocko Homo said:
Hahahahahaha, Jocko,
Quack like a stuck duck would be more appropiate...
Measurements may be interesting but for me only one thing counts: the sonical result. By nature this is subjective. No problem for me. Stradivarius did not have any measuring equipment either.😀 😉
I am looking forward to your measurements.
Currently I can compare SPDIF with I2S direct with the flip of a switch.😉
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