Re: KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.
I am marginally familiar with a few of these forums. They result in discussion after discussion about the same product or line of products. If you own one of those products it can be very interesting, but if you don’t, Boring!!
Can you imagine a manufacturer presenting his amplifier on this currently fictitious forum. The members here would be picking away at the product until he left or successfully supported the product’s features/design/performance. This would be a fun discussion. The manufacturers will certainly learn a lot about how their product is perceived. This would be the major benefit to the advertiser, but only if he/she participated.
Rodd Yamashita
Hi Frank,fdegrove said:
I am marginally familiar with a few of these forums. They result in discussion after discussion about the same product or line of products. If you own one of those products it can be very interesting, but if you don’t, Boring!!
Can you imagine a manufacturer presenting his amplifier on this currently fictitious forum. The members here would be picking away at the product until he left or successfully supported the product’s features/design/performance. This would be a fun discussion. The manufacturers will certainly learn a lot about how their product is perceived. This would be the major benefit to the advertiser, but only if he/she participated.
Rodd Yamashita
OY...
Hi Rodd,
I fail to see the problem...not interested you ignore it.
It's not as if it's going to interfere with day to day interests when hosted on dedicated fora,is it?
Sure...if I were a manufacturer I would love to hear response on my product.
Cheers,😉
\The veggies I sell are always fresh....just picked'em two weeks ago...
Hi Rodd,
I fail to see the problem...not interested you ignore it.
It's not as if it's going to interfere with day to day interests when hosted on dedicated fora,is it?
Sure...if I were a manufacturer I would love to hear response on my product.
Cheers,😉
\The veggies I sell are always fresh....just picked'em two weeks ago...
Re: OY...
Yes, you're right, and I don’t often visit those forums. Most partake in discussions on the dedicated forums for particular information about a product they may own, or are thinking of owning. For this person the dedicated forum is a godsend. For the manufacturer of that product, it allows him a view of his immediate customers, not to mention affording him a few strokes to the ego, but what is the market outside of that little fraternity. Every once in a while a “stranger may come to town” (Hi Fred, Gray) with thoughts of dissecting this product. He will be drummed off the forum, post hast.
A commercial forum here at DIYAudio would be a wholly different animal. The benefits to the manufacturer would be much greater then that of a dedicated forum, but so will the cost in his participation time. He would get a view for the rest of the market, but every other “cowboy” coming down the pike will be an “EE-Kid”, loaded for bear and ready to take to task any “peddler” that dares to sell snake-oil.
I recall a French amp manufacturer that started a couple threads here this past year to discuss his amps. This discussion didn’t fit the forum so he was forced to stop “spamming”. This commercial forum would be the perfect place for him to post. As it turns out his was ahead of his time here. Maybe he would return.
Rodd Yamashita
Hi Frank,fdegrove said:
Yes, you're right, and I don’t often visit those forums. Most partake in discussions on the dedicated forums for particular information about a product they may own, or are thinking of owning. For this person the dedicated forum is a godsend. For the manufacturer of that product, it allows him a view of his immediate customers, not to mention affording him a few strokes to the ego, but what is the market outside of that little fraternity. Every once in a while a “stranger may come to town” (Hi Fred, Gray) with thoughts of dissecting this product. He will be drummed off the forum, post hast.
A commercial forum here at DIYAudio would be a wholly different animal. The benefits to the manufacturer would be much greater then that of a dedicated forum, but so will the cost in his participation time. He would get a view for the rest of the market, but every other “cowboy” coming down the pike will be an “EE-Kid”, loaded for bear and ready to take to task any “peddler” that dares to sell snake-oil.
I recall a French amp manufacturer that started a couple threads here this past year to discuss his amps. This discussion didn’t fit the forum so he was forced to stop “spamming”. This commercial forum would be the perfect place for him to post. As it turns out his was ahead of his time here. Maybe he would return.
Rodd Yamashita
That's not what Pinkmouse told us in the first post in this thread, Frank !?!? If that's true the moderators better explain this plain and simple. If there is a necessity for money to keep the forum alive there must be a way of working this out. Maybe the members of the forum are willing to contribute a small fee ?
Hi everyone, and thanks for your thoughts so far!
To re-iterate, (or to clarify), at the moment we have no fixed plans to do anything to change the non commercial nature of the board.
What this thread is for is to canvas your opinions on if we should change, and how we should change, if that is the concensus.
J-P,
At the moment the site is generously hosted by Jason's employers, Sitepoint so the costs are minimal, and there is no need to raise money on an immediate basis. But, if things were to change, then some way of raising money would have to be found, as the bandwidth of this site is huge!
To re-iterate, (or to clarify), at the moment we have no fixed plans to do anything to change the non commercial nature of the board.
What this thread is for is to canvas your opinions on if we should change, and how we should change, if that is the concensus.
J-P,
At the moment the site is generously hosted by Jason's employers, Sitepoint so the costs are minimal, and there is no need to raise money on an immediate basis. But, if things were to change, then some way of raising money would have to be found, as the bandwidth of this site is huge!
Commercial Posting - NOOOO Please .....!!
have expressed before,
Why pollute diyAudio.com with commercial/business-stuff?
Just don't you dare to - DON'T DO IT !!!
--------------------------------------
Why is diyAudio.com so popular and still getting even more liked?
What do the people that come here say?
They say that they at last have found a good forum.
I think that the abscense of Ads and Commercial activities is
one of this forums greatest strenghts.
Audio-Asylum banned me. They had not many ads visable,
but the Commercial feeling was there all around, anyhow.
I bless my lucky star today, I had to leave.
(the very reson for banning me, was out of concern of a manufacturer)
That made me discover www.diyAudio.com .
---------------------------------------
Other "DIY"-forums are runned by manufacturers or DIY-selvers
with a big or small company.
Their number one concern is to make money. Because it has to be.
The forum is one of the ways to make PR and let people know about their products.
----------------------------------------
😱 To give in for the voices of the ones who want to bring
such a hazardous change to www.diyAdio.com,
as even make a separate forum for advertising,
would in my opinion be a BIG MISTAKE !!!!!!!!!!!! 😱
/halo - likes a living/changing forum
- 😱 But some changes can be a "Dead End Street"
* "Dead End Street" - a big hit, and good piece of rock by The Kinks
willy said:
As several senseble guys, willy and jean-paul among others,
have expressed before,
Why pollute diyAudio.com with commercial/business-stuff?
Just don't you dare to - DON'T DO IT !!!
--------------------------------------
Why is diyAudio.com so popular and still getting even more liked?
What do the people that come here say?
They say that they at last have found a good forum.
I think that the abscense of Ads and Commercial activities is
one of this forums greatest strenghts.
Audio-Asylum banned me. They had not many ads visable,
but the Commercial feeling was there all around, anyhow.
I bless my lucky star today, I had to leave.
(the very reson for banning me, was out of concern of a manufacturer)
That made me discover www.diyAudio.com .
---------------------------------------
Other "DIY"-forums are runned by manufacturers or DIY-selvers
with a big or small company.
Their number one concern is to make money. Because it has to be.
The forum is one of the ways to make PR and let people know about their products.
----------------------------------------
😱 To give in for the voices of the ones who want to bring
such a hazardous change to www.diyAdio.com,
as even make a separate forum for advertising,
would in my opinion be a BIG MISTAKE !!!!!!!!!!!! 😱
/halo - likes a living/changing forum
- 😱 But some changes can be a "Dead End Street"
* "Dead End Street" - a big hit, and good piece of rock by The Kinks
Members Fee
Hi all,
I will be happy to pay a members fee of US10 or 20 a year.
Will this cover the cost of al the traffic?
Hi all,
I will be happy to pay a members fee of US10 or 20 a year.
Will this cover the cost of al the traffic?
Re: Members Fee
So would I, but would enough people do it? And would you exclude those that won't pay? What about guests, new members etc?
I think the Forum would become depopulated, and that would detract from it's usefulness.
I don't want it to become commercial, but it may be the lesser of 2 evils.
Cheers,
Elso,Elso Kwak said:Hi all,
I will be happy to pay a members fee of US10 or 20 a year.
Will this cover the cost of al the traffic?
So would I, but would enough people do it? And would you exclude those that won't pay? What about guests, new members etc?
I think the Forum would become depopulated, and that would detract from it's usefulness.
I don't want it to become commercial, but it may be the lesser of 2 evils.
Cheers,
SPAM SPAM SPAM, but I wouldn't it that
I still think it's a good idea to have a totally separate forum with ads or presentations. This creates an active action of the member to read the ads and the people who won't don't have to.
This is a good example of sneak advertizing but I don't mind when it's done in a nice manner.AKSA said:
I still think it's a good idea to have a totally separate forum with ads or presentations. This creates an active action of the member to read the ads and the people who won't don't have to.
I think that this kind of advertising is not objectionnable, as long as it's a suitable answer to a clearly identified question.
Regards, Pierre Lacombe.
Regards, Pierre Lacombe.
Yeah, Let Them In.
I think manufacturers should be invited and allowed to post relevant information about their products.
That way they would be able to explain the rationale behind the design process that creates their products, and the manufacturing steps and costs that add up to the retail price - this would be illuminating for many members.
Nelson Pass is in this category, and willingly and selflessly gives of his knowledge and experience.
He does go one step further however by publishing schematics of his designs, and gives advice regarding these.
I do not think that these manufacturers should be obliged to pay subscriptions for the privelidge of showcasing and describing their products however.
A 'Manufacturers' Forum would be most enlightening I expect, and give the vehicle by which members can ask some intelligent questions of the designers and manufacturers.
Eric.
I think manufacturers should be invited and allowed to post relevant information about their products.
That way they would be able to explain the rationale behind the design process that creates their products, and the manufacturing steps and costs that add up to the retail price - this would be illuminating for many members.
Nelson Pass is in this category, and willingly and selflessly gives of his knowledge and experience.
He does go one step further however by publishing schematics of his designs, and gives advice regarding these.
I do not think that these manufacturers should be obliged to pay subscriptions for the privelidge of showcasing and describing their products however.
A 'Manufacturers' Forum would be most enlightening I expect, and give the vehicle by which members can ask some intelligent questions of the designers and manufacturers.
Eric.
Dealer reply
I've read over the threads on this topic and would like to comment
I'm guilty of posting commercial items and have benefited from
doing so. I feel I offer a service to Your forum and the DIY community. I sell dollars for 50 cents and sometimes even
more of a savings. I often post even before putting on
my website, giving 1st chance to forums I look into. If I didn't
care I would not have become a member of this forum. I'm a
small one man operation trying to compete with the big guy's.
I've tried not to abuse this forum and know I've helped many
a person looking for items not listed on my website along with
good deals aimed at the DIY market and the solid state amps
being talked about on this forum. This forum along with the
Bass List (DIY Speakers) are the forums I frequent the most
and have been very good to me. I will live with the rules if they
are changed and apreciate the help and people I've meet
and sold to.
Steve @ Apex Jr
I've read over the threads on this topic and would like to comment
I'm guilty of posting commercial items and have benefited from
doing so. I feel I offer a service to Your forum and the DIY community. I sell dollars for 50 cents and sometimes even
more of a savings. I often post even before putting on
my website, giving 1st chance to forums I look into. If I didn't
care I would not have become a member of this forum. I'm a
small one man operation trying to compete with the big guy's.
I've tried not to abuse this forum and know I've helped many
a person looking for items not listed on my website along with
good deals aimed at the DIY market and the solid state amps
being talked about on this forum. This forum along with the
Bass List (DIY Speakers) are the forums I frequent the most
and have been very good to me. I will live with the rules if they
are changed and apreciate the help and people I've meet
and sold to.
Steve @ Apex Jr
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your input. I’m sure that I speak for most here in saying that you are a valued member on the forum. I been to your site a number of times and have come close to ordering a few times. I’m sure I’ll become a customer one day soon.
I hope you realize that my suggestion for a separate forum for commercial discussions would only expand your ability to serve the members. At the same time, it should not preclude you from entering in to any discussions on the main (existing) forums.
I also agree with Eric that this IS NOT about money. I am sorry I suggested it as a possibility in my first post on this subject. This is about providing a place where the members of the forum can engage in discussions with the manufacturers or distributors of commercial products. It could be a very helpful and interesting forum.
Rodd Yamashita
Thanks for your input. I’m sure that I speak for most here in saying that you are a valued member on the forum. I been to your site a number of times and have come close to ordering a few times. I’m sure I’ll become a customer one day soon.
I hope you realize that my suggestion for a separate forum for commercial discussions would only expand your ability to serve the members. At the same time, it should not preclude you from entering in to any discussions on the main (existing) forums.
I also agree with Eric that this IS NOT about money. I am sorry I suggested it as a possibility in my first post on this subject. This is about providing a place where the members of the forum can engage in discussions with the manufacturers or distributors of commercial products. It could be a very helpful and interesting forum.
Rodd Yamashita
Rodd.....
What I was thinking the Trading Post is where I would post
my finds or deals that would work for building amps and help
with cost and at least finding the items needed. The dealer/
commercial forum I would frequent and answer whatever
questions that I can.
Steve
What I was thinking the Trading Post is where I would post
my finds or deals that would work for building amps and help
with cost and at least finding the items needed. The dealer/
commercial forum I would frequent and answer whatever
questions that I can.
Steve
I vote yes
A section for this purpose would be valuable not only for those with something to sell but for those with something they are looking to buy.
Appropriate rules may be in order, though. Such as limiting amount of promotional text to giving directions to the sellers URL.
A further reason would be to accomodate those who are not really "in business" but just want to reduce the cost of their hobby. For instance, I'm contemplating a future project using a few PCBs that are professionally manufactured (multilayer, with solder masks and silkscreen). For a quantity of only 2 this is pretty pricey, perhaps prohibitively so for me. But if I had a batch of 20 made, the unit cost would be very reasonable.
A section for this purpose would be valuable not only for those with something to sell but for those with something they are looking to buy.
Appropriate rules may be in order, though. Such as limiting amount of promotional text to giving directions to the sellers URL.
A further reason would be to accomodate those who are not really "in business" but just want to reduce the cost of their hobby. For instance, I'm contemplating a future project using a few PCBs that are professionally manufactured (multilayer, with solder masks and silkscreen). For a quantity of only 2 this is pretty pricey, perhaps prohibitively so for me. But if I had a batch of 20 made, the unit cost would be very reasonable.
Folks,
I have watched this thread develop with some interest.
Thank you for the kind comments I, and others like me, have received.
Let me give you my thoughts on the matter (pull up a chair, this might be long!!)
I believe bullet points are appropriate here.
1. This forum is for the DIY community, and no one else. Even though I am a manufacturer (of sorts!), I too am a DIY enthusiast and my market is for DIY users and thus this forum puts me in contact with what my market is thinking. Besides, I might learn something!
2. Very few DIY people, with some notable and revered exceptions here, can achieve the technical mastery necessary to actually research, productionize and market the polished industrial designs the retail market demands. This is not a put down; it's just that unless you work daily in the commercial environment it is unlikely you will reach the requisite levels of expertise, and in any event most high end gear is designed by teams, not individuals. It therefore follows that people such as Nelson Pass, with 35 years experience, should be made very welcome, particularly when they are clearly prepared to follow a few obvious ethics about pushing their own barrow. I don't believe anyone here would actively attempt to block posts from Nelson or Jonathan Carr; these men are masters in their field, and frankly, their posts are so germane and masterful they should rightly be regarded as one of the reasons we come here. Make these people welcome, for if you do not, you lose valuable industry insights which enrich your understanding of the technology you practice as a hobbyist.
3. There is a perception amongst DIY, and indeed amongst the buying public in general, that merchants are difficult to deal with, always with an eye on the next sale, and perhaps are a little shady. Doubtless there are often good reasons for this, but the merchants I mentioned earlier demonstrate, as hopefully I do also, that they are prepared to be helpful. Thus, their acceptance in the group is important here lest you frighten some of these gurus away. Some are sensitive; they are people with feelings just like like the rest of us.
4. There is a spectacular difference between marketing and advertising. Nelson and Jonathan do wonders for their marketing by being available on this forum; neither is ever seen here trying to make a sale. For myself, I regard goodwill, a little help to people with difficulties/problems, as marketing; it fosters a good reputation, and brings happy memories down the track of help proffered with no strings attached. Maybe the person who received the help might consider buying one of my products in the years ahead; or put in a good word about my honesty; or maybe his friend or sibling might buy one in the future. This is very different to the here and now pressure of advertizing, which is wholly different and certainly objectionable in this forum.
5. Very few of you realize the ruthless market you guys represent. You have an expectation, right or wrong, that circuit diagrams will be available at no charge; that help will be offered at no profit; that the manufacturers will be properly humble and know their place. I cannot survive in the Australian market; too tough. In the US market, largely owing to favorable currency exchange, I can survive. In a world where patent protection is expensive, illusory, and often unenforceable, IP is routinely stolen as a legitimate mode of doing business, and many buyers unwittingly expect something for nothing. To you guys I would say (and with obvious deference to Nelson's products, which are superb), if you paid nothing for it, it's probably worth the money. Remember, most electronics is far, far more than a schematic; there are issues of component choice and layout in all designs, and I refute utterly the motives of the individual who wants my schemats, my pcb layouts, and my detailed instructions at no cost. It does the DIY a discredit to have this expectation; how many of you would give years of his life to have it all ripped from him at no cost to the consumer? Clearly companies offering DIY kitsets into such an adverse business environment would not survive for long, which of course makes your choices narrower and less interesting.
6. Lastly, lest I appear bitter (I am not, I am remarkably calm and philosophical about all this because I realize that piracy necessarily forgoes service, and service is KING), I'll put this very salient point. A forum is not a particuarly good place to advertise. It often antagonises, and arouses suspicion. Even when done officially, it carries no goodwill, because individual cases cannot be discussed with the vendor; it is neither personal nor tailored to a specific need. And wherever I have seen it done, Asylum for example, it is very expensive and in terms of penetration, relatively ineffective. In this world of webstats, it is very easy to ascertain where the site hits are originating. I know because I've been down this route. Far more effective for me is sponsorship of very small speciality websites, such as Planet 10's outstanding TL site, and my continuing presence here is much like yours; to follow interesting threads (yes, despite earning my living from this pursuit I still love it and indulge a healthy interest in all things audio!), and to meet like-minded people with whom to enjoy our mutual interest.
Great discussion, guys, thanks for the bandwidth.......
Cheers,
Hugh
I have watched this thread develop with some interest.
Thank you for the kind comments I, and others like me, have received.
Let me give you my thoughts on the matter (pull up a chair, this might be long!!)
I believe bullet points are appropriate here.
1. This forum is for the DIY community, and no one else. Even though I am a manufacturer (of sorts!), I too am a DIY enthusiast and my market is for DIY users and thus this forum puts me in contact with what my market is thinking. Besides, I might learn something!
2. Very few DIY people, with some notable and revered exceptions here, can achieve the technical mastery necessary to actually research, productionize and market the polished industrial designs the retail market demands. This is not a put down; it's just that unless you work daily in the commercial environment it is unlikely you will reach the requisite levels of expertise, and in any event most high end gear is designed by teams, not individuals. It therefore follows that people such as Nelson Pass, with 35 years experience, should be made very welcome, particularly when they are clearly prepared to follow a few obvious ethics about pushing their own barrow. I don't believe anyone here would actively attempt to block posts from Nelson or Jonathan Carr; these men are masters in their field, and frankly, their posts are so germane and masterful they should rightly be regarded as one of the reasons we come here. Make these people welcome, for if you do not, you lose valuable industry insights which enrich your understanding of the technology you practice as a hobbyist.
3. There is a perception amongst DIY, and indeed amongst the buying public in general, that merchants are difficult to deal with, always with an eye on the next sale, and perhaps are a little shady. Doubtless there are often good reasons for this, but the merchants I mentioned earlier demonstrate, as hopefully I do also, that they are prepared to be helpful. Thus, their acceptance in the group is important here lest you frighten some of these gurus away. Some are sensitive; they are people with feelings just like like the rest of us.
4. There is a spectacular difference between marketing and advertising. Nelson and Jonathan do wonders for their marketing by being available on this forum; neither is ever seen here trying to make a sale. For myself, I regard goodwill, a little help to people with difficulties/problems, as marketing; it fosters a good reputation, and brings happy memories down the track of help proffered with no strings attached. Maybe the person who received the help might consider buying one of my products in the years ahead; or put in a good word about my honesty; or maybe his friend or sibling might buy one in the future. This is very different to the here and now pressure of advertizing, which is wholly different and certainly objectionable in this forum.
5. Very few of you realize the ruthless market you guys represent. You have an expectation, right or wrong, that circuit diagrams will be available at no charge; that help will be offered at no profit; that the manufacturers will be properly humble and know their place. I cannot survive in the Australian market; too tough. In the US market, largely owing to favorable currency exchange, I can survive. In a world where patent protection is expensive, illusory, and often unenforceable, IP is routinely stolen as a legitimate mode of doing business, and many buyers unwittingly expect something for nothing. To you guys I would say (and with obvious deference to Nelson's products, which are superb), if you paid nothing for it, it's probably worth the money. Remember, most electronics is far, far more than a schematic; there are issues of component choice and layout in all designs, and I refute utterly the motives of the individual who wants my schemats, my pcb layouts, and my detailed instructions at no cost. It does the DIY a discredit to have this expectation; how many of you would give years of his life to have it all ripped from him at no cost to the consumer? Clearly companies offering DIY kitsets into such an adverse business environment would not survive for long, which of course makes your choices narrower and less interesting.
6. Lastly, lest I appear bitter (I am not, I am remarkably calm and philosophical about all this because I realize that piracy necessarily forgoes service, and service is KING), I'll put this very salient point. A forum is not a particuarly good place to advertise. It often antagonises, and arouses suspicion. Even when done officially, it carries no goodwill, because individual cases cannot be discussed with the vendor; it is neither personal nor tailored to a specific need. And wherever I have seen it done, Asylum for example, it is very expensive and in terms of penetration, relatively ineffective. In this world of webstats, it is very easy to ascertain where the site hits are originating. I know because I've been down this route. Far more effective for me is sponsorship of very small speciality websites, such as Planet 10's outstanding TL site, and my continuing presence here is much like yours; to follow interesting threads (yes, despite earning my living from this pursuit I still love it and indulge a healthy interest in all things audio!), and to meet like-minded people with whom to enjoy our mutual interest.
Great discussion, guys, thanks for the bandwidth.......
Cheers,
Hugh
My vote
Since this is close to a democracy ..... or at least a benevolent dictatorship ... so long as it goes into it's own forum I would say fine.
I agree, no banners/pop-ups/spam etc.
mark
Since this is close to a democracy ..... or at least a benevolent dictatorship ... so long as it goes into it's own forum I would say fine.
I agree, no banners/pop-ups/spam etc.
mark
- Status
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