@Visker and @chermann
I'm new when it comes to diy and electronics. So, I'll leave it for the experts to answer.
Regarding my project, I have received first shipment of my order (silmic caps of various capacities, styrene 680pF film caps, wima 4700pF film caps, kemet MLCC 0.1uF ceramic caps, Nichicon 4700pF film caps, Panasonic 100uF 25v RS, Nichicon KZ 10uF 50V, United Chemicon KYB 25V 4700uF and the 27mH 0.9A common mode choke.
The existing power supply cap (cap right next to the rectifiers) is only 1500uF. So, can I just replace it with the new KYB cap ?
Also, can I put a 0.1uF MLCC 50V cap across the 4700uF for smoothing those sharp spikes of the soft recovery rectifier ?
I'm new when it comes to diy and electronics. So, I'll leave it for the experts to answer.
Regarding my project, I have received first shipment of my order (silmic caps of various capacities, styrene 680pF film caps, wima 4700pF film caps, kemet MLCC 0.1uF ceramic caps, Nichicon 4700pF film caps, Panasonic 100uF 25v RS, Nichicon KZ 10uF 50V, United Chemicon KYB 25V 4700uF and the 27mH 0.9A common mode choke.
The existing power supply cap (cap right next to the rectifiers) is only 1500uF. So, can I just replace it with the new KYB cap ?
Also, can I put a 0.1uF MLCC 50V cap across the 4700uF for smoothing those sharp spikes of the soft recovery rectifier ?
e.g
i use 2 caps to verfiy the values , caps were not in use...i bought them 13month ago
electrolytic
nichicon UFGH100MDM 10µF/50V
1khz ESR 1,72R LS 2,9mH
10kHz ESR 0,93R LS 31µH
100kHZ ESR 0,83R LS 0,2µH
Elna RFS-25V100ME3*5 10µF/25V
1khz ESR 3R LS 2,8mH
10kHz ESR 2R LS 32µH
100kHZ ESR 1,85R LS 0,3µH
panasonic EEU-FS1C222L 2200µF/16V - SMPS cap
1khz ESR 50mR LS 13,6µH
10kHz ESR 50mR LS 0,03µH
100kHZ ESR 70mR LS 0,14µH
panasonic EEU-FR1E182 1800µF/25V - SMPS cap
1khz ESR 50mR LS 15µH
10kHz ESR 40mR LS 0,05µH
100kHZ ESR 70mR LS 0,142µH
nonsense??
chris
Ok, I’m a little jealous about that meter, very cool!
You can see clearly how the different parts have their own character as far as esr goes, a curve of sorts.
The small ceramic probably won’t do much on the main filter capacitor. The inductance of the traces will likely null out any good that it will provide. The snubber should go onto the same pair of wires, but shifted over a bit, directly on the diodes. A .01uf will lower the frequency of the noise from the diodes, and adding another .1uf in series with an 18 ohm added will quiet things down pretty good. And film capacitors will be better imo.
Be very careful with those polystyrene caps, they don’t take much heat before they become destroyed. Try and limit the dwell time with the iron to a second or two.
You can see clearly how the different parts have their own character as far as esr goes, a curve of sorts.
The small ceramic probably won’t do much on the main filter capacitor. The inductance of the traces will likely null out any good that it will provide. The snubber should go onto the same pair of wires, but shifted over a bit, directly on the diodes. A .01uf will lower the frequency of the noise from the diodes, and adding another .1uf in series with an 18 ohm added will quiet things down pretty good. And film capacitors will be better imo.
Be very careful with those polystyrene caps, they don’t take much heat before they become destroyed. Try and limit the dwell time with the iron to a second or two.
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@Phase
1. Should add a 0.01uF to the diodes along with a 0.1uF+18ohm resistor ?
2. Can I replace the 1500uF smoothing cap with 4700uF cap I bought ?
3. Regarding the polystyrene caps, yeah, I'll keep that in mind but where do I use it ?
4. What you mean by other side of the transformer ?
Are you suggesting to put 0.01uF with 18ohm resistor to the primary winding of the transformer ?
As you know, there is a 0.15uF (two 0.33uF polypropelene X2 in series) caps just before the transformer already.
1. Should add a 0.01uF to the diodes along with a 0.1uF+18ohm resistor ?
2. Can I replace the 1500uF smoothing cap with 4700uF cap I bought ?
3. Regarding the polystyrene caps, yeah, I'll keep that in mind but where do I use it ?
4. What you mean by other side of the transformer ?
Are you suggesting to put 0.01uF with 18ohm resistor to the primary winding of the transformer ?
As you know, there is a 0.15uF (two 0.33uF polypropelene X2 in series) caps just before the transformer already.
What’s frustrating about the popular Silmic is that there are no published esr values, really a plus for diy to have some numbers for consideration when changing things.
Those parts can go directly onto the diodes, as you have described, and you can ignore the parts about this side or that of the transformer.
The larger main filter caps should be fine to replace the smaller ones.The polystyrene caps will replace the ones on the board of the same value, are next to the op amp. If the parts are just too large to fit on top of the board, you may need to fit them from underneath. I try and look at how all the parts will fit, and then make that determination.
That dac should be sounding pretty good soon, are you going to fabricate a cabinet for it?
Those parts can go directly onto the diodes, as you have described, and you can ignore the parts about this side or that of the transformer.
The larger main filter caps should be fine to replace the smaller ones.The polystyrene caps will replace the ones on the board of the same value, are next to the op amp. If the parts are just too large to fit on top of the board, you may need to fit them from underneath. I try and look at how all the parts will fit, and then make that determination.
That dac should be sounding pretty good soon, are you going to fabricate a cabinet for it?
Thanks for the reply @Phase !
1. OK !
2. Gotcha.
3. I'll check it out.
4. I hope so ! If it does, I'll definitely fit it inside a cabinet.
I'll try Aliexpress first to see if I can find a cabinet in the required dimension coz that would be economical.
Btw, would this oscilloscope be useful ?
DSO138 Oscilloscope (Full assembled)
DSO138 Oscilloscope (Full assembled)-in Oscilloscopes from Tools on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
1. OK !
2. Gotcha.
3. I'll check it out.
4. I hope so ! If it does, I'll definitely fit it inside a cabinet.
I'll try Aliexpress first to see if I can find a cabinet in the required dimension coz that would be economical.
Btw, would this oscilloscope be useful ?
DSO138 Oscilloscope (Full assembled)
DSO138 Oscilloscope (Full assembled)-in Oscilloscopes from Tools on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
That’s very interesting, they have a function generator also that might be good to have with it.
I couldn’t find any user reviews, but haven’t looked much either. I wouldn’t mind getting one of those to play around with.
I couldn’t find any user reviews, but haven’t looked much either. I wouldn’t mind getting one of those to play around with.
Ok, I'll get that one or the next, slightly costlier model.
I have a massive post coming up regarding what I have learned about those regulators and what I'm gonna do regarding Cin, Cout and Cadj caps and their ESR requirements. I sincerely hope it would help others who are in the same boat as mine but yeah, there is a huge chance that it might contain errors. SO, need your feedback.
After getting it corrected, I'll post a new thread and list everything I have done to this DAC board with the reason why I did it.
SO, for many regulators, on the input side, there is a 0.1uF ceramic X7R cap (for removing high frequency spikes ?). Now, there are some who believe its not the correct value. They are suggesting to use 1uF+0.01uF ceramic X7R . What you guys think ?
Also, can I put the same combination of caps on + and - power carrying traces of the PCB for like 1 set per every 2" length ? I'm thinking it would remove the high frequency spikes and noise.
I have a massive post coming up regarding what I have learned about those regulators and what I'm gonna do regarding Cin, Cout and Cadj caps and their ESR requirements. I sincerely hope it would help others who are in the same boat as mine but yeah, there is a huge chance that it might contain errors. SO, need your feedback.
After getting it corrected, I'll post a new thread and list everything I have done to this DAC board with the reason why I did it.
SO, for many regulators, on the input side, there is a 0.1uF ceramic X7R cap (for removing high frequency spikes ?). Now, there are some who believe its not the correct value. They are suggesting to use 1uF+0.01uF ceramic X7R . What you guys think ?
Also, can I put the same combination of caps on + and - power carrying traces of the PCB for like 1 set per every 2" length ? I'm thinking it would remove the high frequency spikes and noise.
Just thinking now about the function generator, you can just play a signal through the dac maybe before purchasing one, is what I’ll probably do. I’m not entirely convinced that I will see much detail with that scope, but I’m sure it will be handy for troubleshooting.
As for the small caps on the input of the regulators, I haven’t been able to notice any difference in the stability and/or sound using that arrangement. It could make sense in certain situations maybe where the larger input caps are farther away, but all these hobby boards are fairly compact.
I would not recommend placing small caps at intervals along a trace, any benefit that may be gained will be outweighed by the likelihood of a resonance created between the low esr and the inductance of the trace.
I think that would be great to see a write up showing what you have found regarding the regulators. While these are fairly low end components, they have performed much better after a little attention.
As for the small caps on the input of the regulators, I haven’t been able to notice any difference in the stability and/or sound using that arrangement. It could make sense in certain situations maybe where the larger input caps are farther away, but all these hobby boards are fairly compact.
I would not recommend placing small caps at intervals along a trace, any benefit that may be gained will be outweighed by the likelihood of a resonance created between the low esr and the inductance of the trace.
I think that would be great to see a write up showing what you have found regarding the regulators. While these are fairly low end components, they have performed much better after a little attention.
Regarding the second point, would adding the caps can make the situation bad?
If yes, a 0.5W 0.3 or 0.1 Ohm SMD resistor in series help with the ESR ?
I',m also planning to add the same combo to the output along with a bigger lytic cap. Is it a good idea ?
Here's a post about the AM1117 33 LDO. Its about the output cap and its ESR requirement. See the graph about output capacitance vs ESR.
voltage regulator - Capacitors for AMS1117 for 5V to 3.3V regulation - Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange
If yes, a 0.5W 0.3 or 0.1 Ohm SMD resistor in series help with the ESR ?
I',m also planning to add the same combo to the output along with a bigger lytic cap. Is it a good idea ?
Here's a post about the AM1117 33 LDO. Its about the output cap and its ESR requirement. See the graph about output capacitance vs ESR.
voltage regulator - Capacitors for AMS1117 for 5V to 3.3V regulation - Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange
That article looks a lot like the data sheet, but is nice to see that they mentioned the .3 -22ohms for reference.
The small cap probably won’t hurt anything on the input side, and on the output, place the small cap near the load.
The small cap probably won’t hurt anything on the input side, and on the output, place the small cap near the load.
AM1117 33 (3.3V LDO) from Diodes Incorporated
Data sheet: https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/AP1117_R21.pdf
Data sheet recommends 10uF cap at input and a 22uF cap at output. For output cap, data sheet recommends
Data sheet: https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/AP1117_R21.pdf
Data sheet recommends 10uF cap at input and a 22uF cap at output. For output cap, data sheet recommends
Whats conflicting however is this description of the input pin:
I'm not sure the 10uF cap is 'large' enough and how large is 'large'. Also, it says nothing about the ESR of the input cap. How about a 100uF 0.5 Ohm electrolytic with a 01uF+0.01uF ceramic?
Hi
Typically a large storage capacitor is connected from this pin to ground to insure that the input voltage does not sag below the minimum dropout voltage during the load transient response. This pin must always be 1.3V higher than VOUT in order for the device to regulate properly.
as i am in the same boad as you but with 1 step more experience i try to explain:
if you have an input voltage on you regulator which is very "unstable" it s mandatory to use a bigger cap e.g. 100µF and more. the reason why? the LDO will be damaged if the input voltage is 1,3V less then the output voltage -reverse current...etc.. therefore you can use a diode to protect the chip (the diode is used too at inductive L or capacitive C loads)
chris
Typically a large storage capacitor is connected from this pin to ground to insure that the input voltage does not sag below the minimum dropout voltage during the load transient response. This pin must always be 1.3V higher than VOUT in order for the device to regulate properly.
as i am in the same boad as you but with 1 step more experience i try to explain:
if you have an input voltage on you regulator which is very "unstable" it s mandatory to use a bigger cap e.g. 100µF and more. the reason why? the LDO will be damaged if the input voltage is 1,3V less then the output voltage -reverse current...etc.. therefore you can use a diode to protect the chip (the diode is used too at inductive L or capacitive C loads)
chris
Thanks Chris for the reply. I'm guessing the input voltage is not that unstable but let me check from where the input for AM1117 is coming. I'm guessing its from other linear regulators.
Hi @caps: i like dave 😀 YouTube regulator: at a DAC i assume that you need a LDO and not a fly buck regulator("noisy") but i think the AMS1117, ld1117 are very good , strong, but noisy. as you can read in my thread..... the regulators are build with different input / output voltage and current ratings. if you know the current which is needed per regulator you can choose the correct one (with some headroom) with the lowest noise so what i mean. it makes no sense to use an regulator with 50V input voltage and 2A current for better options the LT3042/45, ad151, AD2114 e.g. https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/270681-ultra-low-noise-psrr-ldo-lt3042-10.html#post5486516
chris
chris
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@Chris
Very interesting. Are you planning to replace the LDOs in your DAC boards with LT3042 ?
BTW, I got the Burson V6 Classic dual channel OP-AMP courtesy of Charles (SS Audio). To my ears, the dual NE5534 and this Burson sounds very different ! Burson V6 classic has lots of details but I'm feeling some strange things with vocals. May be because I'm used to the sound of dual NE5534.
Very interesting. Are you planning to replace the LDOs in your DAC boards with LT3042 ?
BTW, I got the Burson V6 Classic dual channel OP-AMP courtesy of Charles (SS Audio). To my ears, the dual NE5534 and this Burson sounds very different ! Burson V6 classic has lots of details but I'm feeling some strange things with vocals. May be because I'm used to the sound of dual NE5534.
hi sorry what´s your name...😉
no i am not planing this..i got an advice by JP to look for the extra regulator for the 9023 chip..mic5205. 3,6V
but for the 3,3V regulator the ad151 or the ap2114 is very low noise...but be carefully with the pin layout in general!
i do not know the bursons Vx version... i know the NE5534 from my tpa3251EVM baord and these are very good (they are origin). let them play few days and then compare...they need a little "burn in" phase
chris
no i am not planing this..i got an advice by JP to look for the extra regulator for the 9023 chip..mic5205. 3,6V
but for the 3,3V regulator the ad151 or the ap2114 is very low noise...but be carefully with the pin layout in general!
i do not know the bursons Vx version... i know the NE5534 from my tpa3251EVM baord and these are very good (they are origin). let them play few days and then compare...they need a little "burn in" phase
chris
You are in for a treat using the burson op amp, that’s the same as I am using and am very pleased with.
All of the capacitors seem to go through a cycle for the first few weeks.
If you want to speed things up, try and let it play for about half the time, and sit powered down for the remainder of the day for a while.
Some parts take around 100 hours, some many more, but will be most of the way there by 200 hours or so.
Very controversial subject as the people who can’t see how that is possible say that it isn’t so, and the rest listen.
So try not to doubt yourself too much, and if you really want to learn what each part does and how the dac reacts to the changes, you should do only one position at a time.
If something goes off and you don’t like the change, you won’t be able to tell which part is contributing to the sound with several changes at once.
All of the capacitors seem to go through a cycle for the first few weeks.
If you want to speed things up, try and let it play for about half the time, and sit powered down for the remainder of the day for a while.
Some parts take around 100 hours, some many more, but will be most of the way there by 200 hours or so.
Very controversial subject as the people who can’t see how that is possible say that it isn’t so, and the rest listen.
So try not to doubt yourself too much, and if you really want to learn what each part does and how the dac reacts to the changes, you should do only one position at a time.
If something goes off and you don’t like the change, you won’t be able to tell which part is contributing to the sound with several changes at once.