These Tripath modules seem quite susceptible to cross-talk and related distortions. In the evolution of my little system, if going from 1 to 2 Charlize amps bettered the system by a factor of 1, going from 1 to 2 power supplies bettered the system by a factor of 2. These little amps are seriously resolving! Low level detail improved noticeably by adding the second supply, as did separation of instruments etc. I am, however, now more aware of a certain hashiness to or excess of high frequencies, which could be any or a combination of 1) cheap smpss, 2) the ever universal problem of bad recordings (the hash is more evident the worse the recording), 3) my cheap Totem Mite speakers' tweeters, 4) those tweeters having been run a little hot (original crossover cap was mylar which can tempt a designer, j'speculate, to push a little more tweeter). I plan to replace the smpss with Tamura brand, which should offer about the best magnetics on the market, which in turn should give a cleaner supply (apart from better specs to begin with).
Tom,
That is very interesting - are the SMPS supplies you are using cheap?.
I was donated a VERY nice 10a SMPS supply which I was planning to use it as my main power supply for a DAC and 2 charlize. It would be interesting to see if it was better than 2 cheap SMPS supplies.
As a side note - What voltages are people using - I was going to use 13.2 or 13.8?
That is very interesting - are the SMPS supplies you are using cheap?.
I was donated a VERY nice 10a SMPS supply which I was planning to use it as my main power supply for a DAC and 2 charlize. It would be interesting to see if it was better than 2 cheap SMPS supplies.
As a side note - What voltages are people using - I was going to use 13.2 or 13.8?
Commited said:
The smpss I'm using are these. In researching smpss, I stumbled across the manufacturer Mean Well and quickly realised that the smpss in the link are Chinese copies of Mean Well units. They are probably decent supplies, and gave a tightly regulated DC output, but I suspect a supply with better magnetics will outperform them. Hey, for $30, can't really go wrong!
From my recent experience adding an extra supply to my system, I suspect two cheaper supplies feeding two Charlizes would better one better-quality supply feeding two Charlizes.
Nuuk said:Brent, what time is it where you are? Shouldn't you be in bed dreaming about Charlize?
Hehe, yes it was late when I was posting (almost 2 am) but I was up trying to update a computer.
Anyways I'll be getting the diyfidelity attenuator and put it in the enclosure with the charlize so it will be between the charlize and a dac, cd player, preamp etc.
Commited said:
Just because it's very clause to Carlize limit 14VDC and I personally think that there is no need to play with the
I run mine at 13.2, but would run it up to 13.5 without any fears.
Going from 12VDC to 13.2VDC, there is 1.2VDC and this is a significant change. I just wonder if the .3 extra VDC would really make any difference (from 13.2 to 13.5).
I use an active linestage with mine but tried an Alps pot, 10K recently and must say it sounded great, I missed some of the dynamics from the active but the pot was good
As to a stepped, try it both ways and let us know. My OPINION is that it may sound a bit clinical with a stepped which usually uses m.f. resistors, but what do I know? Some may prefer it with them in.
Andrew
As to a stepped, try it both ways and let us know. My OPINION is that it may sound a bit clinical with a stepped which usually uses m.f. resistors, but what do I know? Some may prefer it with them in.
Andrew
Warning highly subjective content
So yesterday I experimented with different input caps for Charlize. I bypass the input elco and place different caps between input and PCB. The caps I used were from my partsbin.
While listening to music I know fairly well, I swapped the caps and ranked them according to my preference.
This, I realise, is by no way scientific and maybe the endresult is what I expected but certainly not what I wanted because of spatial requirement in the cabinet. The results are my personal views as experienced in my system and as usual YMMV.
The contestants were:
1.Wima MKS4 5,1 uF
2.Mundorf Mcap 2,2 uF
3.Arco MKP C4G 2,2 uF
4.Arco MKP C4G 5 uF
5.SCR PB MKP 3,9 uF
6.Mundorf Mcap Supreme 2,2 uF
7.ERO MKC 1852 2,2 uF
8.Monacor MKP 2,2 uF
Caps no 1, 7 and 8 were quickly dismissed. The sound just wasn’t right. Too much sibilance, bad imaging or otherwise annoying.
I was pleasantly surprised by 2, 3 and 4. No 3 being from a lot that I got from ebay for cheap.
In normal systems I would be happy to use them, just not in my main system. In the future I will use them for tweaking.
The Mundorf Supreme did everything just the best: imaging, soundstage, tonal balance, sibilance (or relative lack thereof), etc. The best sound in my ears of the lot.
The SCR was a complete different beast. It made the music flow more and added (dare I say it) a tubelike sound. The soundstage was clearly more in front of the speakers but lacked depth. Also imaging suffered when compared to the other MKP’s. I can imagine that a lot of people would prefer this over the “correct” sound of the Mundorf. It is just not my sound. The reason I like Charlize, the best wire with gain I’ve had in my home so far, is best served with the Mundorf Supreme.
Final Ranking
1.Mundorf Mcap Supreme 2,2 uF
2.SCR PB MKP 3,9 uF
3.Mundorf Mcap 2,2 uF
4.Arco MKP C4G 2,2 uF
5.Arco MKP C4G 5 uF
6.ERO MKC 1852 2,2 uF
7.Monacor MKP 2,2 uF
8.Wima MKS4 5,1 uF
Again: all my subjective, personal view but maybe of some help to someone.
Cheers,
Johan
So yesterday I experimented with different input caps for Charlize. I bypass the input elco and place different caps between input and PCB. The caps I used were from my partsbin.
While listening to music I know fairly well, I swapped the caps and ranked them according to my preference.
This, I realise, is by no way scientific and maybe the endresult is what I expected but certainly not what I wanted because of spatial requirement in the cabinet. The results are my personal views as experienced in my system and as usual YMMV.
The contestants were:
1.Wima MKS4 5,1 uF
2.Mundorf Mcap 2,2 uF
3.Arco MKP C4G 2,2 uF
4.Arco MKP C4G 5 uF
5.SCR PB MKP 3,9 uF
6.Mundorf Mcap Supreme 2,2 uF
7.ERO MKC 1852 2,2 uF
8.Monacor MKP 2,2 uF
Caps no 1, 7 and 8 were quickly dismissed. The sound just wasn’t right. Too much sibilance, bad imaging or otherwise annoying.
I was pleasantly surprised by 2, 3 and 4. No 3 being from a lot that I got from ebay for cheap.
In normal systems I would be happy to use them, just not in my main system. In the future I will use them for tweaking.
The Mundorf Supreme did everything just the best: imaging, soundstage, tonal balance, sibilance (or relative lack thereof), etc. The best sound in my ears of the lot.
The SCR was a complete different beast. It made the music flow more and added (dare I say it) a tubelike sound. The soundstage was clearly more in front of the speakers but lacked depth. Also imaging suffered when compared to the other MKP’s. I can imagine that a lot of people would prefer this over the “correct” sound of the Mundorf. It is just not my sound. The reason I like Charlize, the best wire with gain I’ve had in my home so far, is best served with the Mundorf Supreme.
Final Ranking
1.Mundorf Mcap Supreme 2,2 uF
2.SCR PB MKP 3,9 uF
3.Mundorf Mcap 2,2 uF
4.Arco MKP C4G 2,2 uF
5.Arco MKP C4G 5 uF
6.ERO MKC 1852 2,2 uF
7.Monacor MKP 2,2 uF
8.Wima MKS4 5,1 uF
Again: all my subjective, personal view but maybe of some help to someone.
Cheers,
Johan
Juan,
I replaced the Cerefine 10uF 50V input caps with Blackgate N of the same ratings.
Blackgate N is superior. No question. It's not a huge difference at first, but a day or two I realized that the sound was richer and more dimensional. Music sounded more fluid with more body and punch in the lower midrange and not as dry and flat sounding.
The Blackgates are wider than the Cerefine, however, so if you replace them don't remove the plastic skins or the outer cases will touch causing a short circuit. The signal from both channels will mix together giving you a mono signal. Also, there might be some effect on the voltage biasing, possibly causing the chip to shut down.
Since the Blackgates are wider, you might have to keep the leads slightly longer than usual to suspend them a little above the board. Then bend each one outward and away from each other at the top to create clearance at the bottom in order to keep them from touching.
Well worth it compared to the Cerefine. I wouldn't be surprised if a premium film cap like the Mundorf is even better, though. I haven't tried those against the Blackgate N's so I'm not sure.
Best,
KT
I replaced the Cerefine 10uF 50V input caps with Blackgate N of the same ratings.
Blackgate N is superior. No question. It's not a huge difference at first, but a day or two I realized that the sound was richer and more dimensional. Music sounded more fluid with more body and punch in the lower midrange and not as dry and flat sounding.
The Blackgates are wider than the Cerefine, however, so if you replace them don't remove the plastic skins or the outer cases will touch causing a short circuit. The signal from both channels will mix together giving you a mono signal. Also, there might be some effect on the voltage biasing, possibly causing the chip to shut down.
Since the Blackgates are wider, you might have to keep the leads slightly longer than usual to suspend them a little above the board. Then bend each one outward and away from each other at the top to create clearance at the bottom in order to keep them from touching.
Well worth it compared to the Cerefine. I wouldn't be surprised if a premium film cap like the Mundorf is even better, though. I haven't tried those against the Blackgate N's so I'm not sure.
Best,
KT
I've seen a few comments saying that Charlize does better bass than the Autocostruire. Could this be partly due to the size of the input caps. 10uf against just 2.2 for the Autocostuire, that seems like a big difference considering both amps use the same chip.
Is the circuit totally different?
Is the circuit totally different?
Hi Newbie question here.
I would like to replace the cerefine caps with black gate caps, the problem is i have no idea what is is that i should be doing:
1. Should i install a black gate n 10uf 50 v capacitor?
2. Are the cerefine caps the red cylinders adjacent to the line inputs
3. What legs of the capacitors go where
Sorry for the really simplistic language but i am very new to this and try to figure things out bit by bit. Thanks for the patience
I would like to replace the cerefine caps with black gate caps, the problem is i have no idea what is is that i should be doing:
1. Should i install a black gate n 10uf 50 v capacitor?
2. Are the cerefine caps the red cylinders adjacent to the line inputs
3. What legs of the capacitors go where
Sorry for the really simplistic language but i am very new to this and try to figure things out bit by bit. Thanks for the patience
Hi Neil,
1. If you replace the Cerefine with Blackgate N, I think you will notice an improvement. If you're adventurous, however, you may want to try some of the premium film caps, like Mundorf, Dynamicap, Auricap, Jupiter, AudioNote copper, V-Caps, teflons, etc. These may potentially be an even better upgrade, though each of these is more expensive thant the Blackgate N's and will involve finding a way to secure the caps to the chassis and routing the leads to the holes. You may want to try a lower value, like 2.0 to 3.0uF, as fim caps become probiitively large and expensive in the larger values.
If you want to really learn how these caps sound compared to the Cerefine, build your amp with the stock Cerefines and listen for a few months. Then make the change and see what changes or improves.
2. Yes, the input Cerefine's are the two red caps right next to the input solder pads.
3. Take note of where the negative legs of the Cerefines are oriented. Normally with a polarized electrolytic cap, the negative leg will face the lower voltage potential and the positive leg will face the higher voltage potential - normally the negative leg facing the circuit downstream and the positive leg facing the input signal.
You'll notice that the polarity orientation is reversed in the Charlize, however (with "-" facing the input signal). That's because the Tripath TA2020 chip operates with a positive biasing voltage on the circuit. That makes the voltage potential on the circuit board greater than that of the input signal. Therefore, in the Charlize the positive leg faces the circuit board the negative leg of the cap faces input signal.
The Blackgate N's are non-polar, however, which means they will operate in either direction and are not marked with a "-" leg indicator. The Blackgate N's do have a long leg and a short leg, however, which indicates which leg attatches to the inner foil and which one attatches to the outer foil of the cap.
Several folks on the board have experimented with the orientation of the BG-N's foil, notaby Peter Daniel, to see which orientation sounds more favorable. I have not tested this, myself, in the Charlize, but I took Peter's findings as a starting point.
He found that in a conventional circuit, the BG-N's sounds better with the shorter leg facing the input signal (higher potential). Since the higher potential in the Charlize is on the the circuit board, however, I oriented the BG-N's with the shorter leg facing the board and the longer leg facing the input signal.
You may want to experiment with this as I'm not sure which way actually sounds better in this circuit.
Keep in mind that the 10uF 50V BG-N's are wider than the Cerefine's, so you'll want to keep the plastic on the caps to prevent the left and right input signals from shorting together if the caps touch each other. Also, if you use 10uF 50V BG-N's, you might have to leave the leads a little bit longer so that the caps hover above the board slightly. Then you'll have to bend the caps away from each other at the top to create clearance at the bottom so they don't touch each other. The final configuration will look like a V, with the top of the caps further than the bottoms, but you'll need to do this in order to keep them from touching.
Alternately, you could use a smaller value BG-N, like 4.7uF 50v, which should be about the same physical size as the Cerefine. With these you'll be able to press these flush to the circuit board without fear of the caps short circuiting against one another. You could experiment with taking the skins of the caps, if you desire, to see if this improves the sonics.
Blackgate N's can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/4yds2
www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf
as well as other vendors, which I can't remember off the top of my head.
Good luck!
KT
1. If you replace the Cerefine with Blackgate N, I think you will notice an improvement. If you're adventurous, however, you may want to try some of the premium film caps, like Mundorf, Dynamicap, Auricap, Jupiter, AudioNote copper, V-Caps, teflons, etc. These may potentially be an even better upgrade, though each of these is more expensive thant the Blackgate N's and will involve finding a way to secure the caps to the chassis and routing the leads to the holes. You may want to try a lower value, like 2.0 to 3.0uF, as fim caps become probiitively large and expensive in the larger values.
If you want to really learn how these caps sound compared to the Cerefine, build your amp with the stock Cerefines and listen for a few months. Then make the change and see what changes or improves.
2. Yes, the input Cerefine's are the two red caps right next to the input solder pads.
3. Take note of where the negative legs of the Cerefines are oriented. Normally with a polarized electrolytic cap, the negative leg will face the lower voltage potential and the positive leg will face the higher voltage potential - normally the negative leg facing the circuit downstream and the positive leg facing the input signal.
You'll notice that the polarity orientation is reversed in the Charlize, however (with "-" facing the input signal). That's because the Tripath TA2020 chip operates with a positive biasing voltage on the circuit. That makes the voltage potential on the circuit board greater than that of the input signal. Therefore, in the Charlize the positive leg faces the circuit board the negative leg of the cap faces input signal.
The Blackgate N's are non-polar, however, which means they will operate in either direction and are not marked with a "-" leg indicator. The Blackgate N's do have a long leg and a short leg, however, which indicates which leg attatches to the inner foil and which one attatches to the outer foil of the cap.
Several folks on the board have experimented with the orientation of the BG-N's foil, notaby Peter Daniel, to see which orientation sounds more favorable. I have not tested this, myself, in the Charlize, but I took Peter's findings as a starting point.
He found that in a conventional circuit, the BG-N's sounds better with the shorter leg facing the input signal (higher potential). Since the higher potential in the Charlize is on the the circuit board, however, I oriented the BG-N's with the shorter leg facing the board and the longer leg facing the input signal.
You may want to experiment with this as I'm not sure which way actually sounds better in this circuit.
Keep in mind that the 10uF 50V BG-N's are wider than the Cerefine's, so you'll want to keep the plastic on the caps to prevent the left and right input signals from shorting together if the caps touch each other. Also, if you use 10uF 50V BG-N's, you might have to leave the leads a little bit longer so that the caps hover above the board slightly. Then you'll have to bend the caps away from each other at the top to create clearance at the bottom so they don't touch each other. The final configuration will look like a V, with the top of the caps further than the bottoms, but you'll need to do this in order to keep them from touching.
Alternately, you could use a smaller value BG-N, like 4.7uF 50v, which should be about the same physical size as the Cerefine. With these you'll be able to press these flush to the circuit board without fear of the caps short circuiting against one another. You could experiment with taking the skins of the caps, if you desire, to see if this improves the sonics.
Blackgate N's can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/4yds2
www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf
as well as other vendors, which I can't remember off the top of my head.
Good luck!
KT