Cables, material and purity?

[markusA]

Will it make any difference what purity your copper or silver your cables are?
Does silver or copper make any real difference?
Is there a point in choosing a fancy isolation material like ptfe, cotton or silk, why not cheap pvc?

So far I've managed to find out that speaker wire is supposed to have low resistance and inductance while IC's are supposed to have low capacitance.
Resistance=material, inductance and capacitance is dependent on cable geometry and construction.
Feel free to correct me if I get something wrong. 🙂

So, does it matter how many nines you have in the cable description?

How pure is standard copper wire?

 

[SY]

Interestingly, the ultra-pure copper has lower conductivity than "normal" copper so really isn't as theoretically good, though much more expensive.

Many claims are made for this or that in wire, but the reality is that no-one selling the stuff has any real data showing that it makes any difference. Lots of claims, though, of all sorts of wonderful things. Use what makes you happy. (I use cut-down Hope Depot orange outdoor extension cords and focus my resources elsewhere, where there are proven differences)

 

[markusA]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. A lot of talk but little done to back up the claims.
So, why should anyone buy anything else than standard copper wire in suitable wire gauge?

Does anyone know what purity regular copper wire usually has?

The only reason I'm making a fuss over this is becuse I'm ready to install the internal wiring in my diy speakers. changing regular speaker wire is nothing but cracking the speakers open and changing the internal wires is a chore.

 

[DIFORCE]

There is no diffrence what so ever on what kind of internal wire you use ,exept the gauge. For the extremly short distances the signal travels I seriously doubt anyone ,ever ,heard any diffrence. Be it silver or copper. Sure some speakers use high end wire ,no reason not to in any cost-no-object designs...but come on ,I'ts an obvious marketing gimmick.

 

[markusA]

I'm guessing something like 4' will be needed, the binding posts are mounted at the bottom of the speaker facing the floor. Maybe 5' for easy soldeing?

 

[Magura]

Have you ever heard a Dynaudio speaker?
Did you like it?

If so, you can safely assume that you belong in the "any wire that's big enough goes" group 😀

I have been working for Dynaudio, some years ago, trust me, the wire they use is low grade!


Magura 🙂

 

[DIFORCE]

Just make sure they are not too tight ,nor too loose 🙂. Actualy since you brought that up... Im wondering if loose internal wire as any issues with performance becouse of the air movement/pressure inside. Btw magura nice pic... ( wtf.. 🙂 )

 

[markusA]

Magura>Cool. 😀
Dynaudio is actually my All time favorites when it comes to speakers. Sure there are other manufacturers out there but I feel Dynaudio offers very good bang for the buck.

 

[marce]

It is interesting how much discussion there is regarding cables. What can have an affect is how the cables are terminated(ie soldered to a connector, screw fixing etc), the quality of connections made, the quality of soldering on any PCBs (a single dry joint can cause more havoc) etc etc. There are so many more factors that could affect sound quality in the signal chain, maybe we should investigate what solder compositions sound best, my preference is SAC305, not as bright as SnPbAg!!!

 

[Andrea:]

Will it make any difference what purity your copper or silver your cables are?
Does silver or copper make any real difference?
Is there a point in choosing a fancy isolation material like ptfe, cotton or silk, why not cheap pvc?

So far I've managed to find out that speaker wire is supposed to have low resistance and inductance while IC's are supposed to have low capacitance.
Resistance=material, inductance and capacitance is dependent on cable geometry and construction.
Feel free to correct me if I get something wrong. 🙂

So, does it matter how many nines you have in the cable description?

How pure is standard copper wire?

IMO what you should do is listen to a variety of cables, and determine for yourself what is better and what is not.



If you value my experience... I prefer (pure) copper, which is warmer and rounder sounding than silver. Silver can sound great too... so it boils down to synergy with a given audio system.

I like silver plated copper, since it retains much of the warmth of copper but adds to that a more upfront presentation of sonic transients, which I like.


Regarding dielectrics... that's more complicated. But they most certainly influence the sound. I'm not sure that PTFE sounds better than PE, and anyway it's a matter of conductor/dielectric synergy if you will.


Cable geometry? They have different sonic characters too... coaxial tends to be open sounding and not very bassy (tight bass though), yet not very enegetic in the treble; symmetrical conductors tend to have more midrange presence and possibly a punchier bass, and crisper highs... etc.


Stranded or solid core? It's hard to tell what is better. I like both 🙂

 

[Andrea:]

Connectors sound different too... and not necessarily the most expensive is the best, especially not in all situations. It's a matter of synergy with a given cable, in particular.


Among the cheapest, the Neutrik (the cheap ones) are good sounding... but can be damn stiff to plug & unplug from the RCA sockets 😱

 

[Magura]

Here we go again.


Magura 🙂

 

[markusA]

Andrea>It's nice to hear from "the other camp". I have been a believer myself earlier. Today I'm more like undecided.

Silverplated copper. To me this looks like man made skin effect? To add a more conductive layer on the outside of the wire?

I've heard similar descriptions before, claiming copper to be "warmer" sounding. In my case this would be to my liking I think?

Judging from your comments I'll stear clear of coaxials... They were never ever part of the equation to begin with so no great loss there.

So, merging opinions.
Copper is cheaper and warmer sounding. To me this sound like a no brainer. 😀

The only opinion on purity is supplied by Magura and judgin by her commentsI shouldn't worry too much about purity.
Again the cheap side wins. 😀

Connectors. A lot of connectors are brass so yes, I can imagine this togeather with shoddy soldering might cause some negative effect on sound.
I'll be shooting for direct goldplated copper connectors I think? Gold is useful for keeping oxidation in check.

 

[Scottmoose]

Not another wire thread! 😱

 

[markusA]

Hey Scottmoose. 🙂
I put it in the "Everything else" category. You helped me out in my other thread and pretty much made an unbeliever out of me so I'm just fishing for more opinions to see what I can make of it.
The only real question at this point is regarding purity, if it matters at all?

Considering silver is something like 6% lower resistance than copper and it's debatable if one can hear any difference. How could it matter if copper is 99% or 99.99999%?
It seems unlikely.

 

[Magura]

Silver plated wire actually has an excuse for its existence, as it solders better than plain copper wire. I use it myself for just about anything that has to work well.

Habia makes some of the best.

Magura 🙂

 

[auplater]

You do realize there are hundreds of different gold and silver plating processes used commercially, so if one is concerned about the "sound" of the bulk wire, one should also be concerned about the "sound" of the silver or gold plating used on the wires and/or connectors.

not to mention the gold,nickel,solder,etc. plating on the circuit boards inside your components. Heck, many circuit boards start out as electroplated copper over epoxy/teflon/whatever substrates...

FYI

 

[Steve Eddy]

Interestingly, the ultra-pure copper has lower conductivity than "normal" copper so really isn't as theoretically good, though much more expensive.

Eh?

Do you have a source for this? Never heard of such a thing before.

I mean, "normal" copper is ETP (CDA110). It's generally less pure than OFHC (CDA101). However with ETP, they use controlled amounts of oxygen to scavenge impurities and take them out of solution, which brings ETP's conductivity up to that of the more inherently pure OFHC.

And according to the gentleman I spoke to at Phelps Dodge several years ago, their OFHC was certified at 99.9999% and didn't cost much more than ETP.

se

 

[DIFORCE]

Andrea if you can make the diffrence in a blind A B test with coaxial or symmetrical conductors in the same speaker i'll personally fly to where ever you are and give you all my money.

 

[Steve Dunlap]

Everything you need to know about copper.

Copper.org: Innovations : The Metallurgy of Copper Wire

Oxygen is used as an alloying element to improve the soundness of "as-cast" copper bars through the control of gas-metal reactions. Equally important, oxygen acts as a scavenger in reacting with most of the impurities, which have their most potent effects on properties and annealing response when they are dissolved in the copper matrix. In contrast, harmful effects may be nullified when impurities are tied up as insoluble oxides. The maximum conductivity of ETP copper occurs at approximately 200 ppm of oxygen as shown in Figure 3. Consequently, oxygen content for ETP copper is generally in the range of 175 to 450 ppm. Lower oxygen values are usually avoided because of a propensity to hot cracking resulting from uncombined impurities. In contrast, oxygen values in excess of this optimum concentration range are not too common because of an adverse effect upon formability. Actual oxygen content is a compromise between attaining better (less sluggish) annealing behavior and avoiding possible drawability problems.