The wide baffle with no chamfering is a part of the concept. smaller round overs are not a problem. But you need to take in mind that many candidates to build this don't have access to cnc or other advanced building tools, they do it with hand tools like an electric saw, a router and sanding machines. If you make it to difficult to build, you eleminate a lot of potential builders.
And the original monkey boxes also did not have them,, sometimes they got a small waveguide integrated in the tweeters (like the JBL L100 has in some versions) but that's. The wide baffle is the waveguide largely and the sound of that is part of the equation. It's not a studio monitor like precison speaker, that is true, but it's a system that works very well in an average living room.
The reason why i stress on that is that i see that many modern designs are just to complex for diy'ers without years or decades of experience. You need well studied good sounding starter kits also, and this could be one of them. Like not every car should be a ferrari or a porche, not every speaker need to be as clean and neutral as a Genelec or similar monitor speaker. For many a volkswagen golf is good enough. You need to have the variety of designs to keep the younger enter this hobby. Now they move to other sites (FB, Reditt) because the speaker section of diy audio became to much "for advanced builders only". That may be not what you see who are only here, but i see that everyday because i'm on many platforms active.
And the original monkey boxes also did not have them,, sometimes they got a small waveguide integrated in the tweeters (like the JBL L100 has in some versions) but that's. The wide baffle is the waveguide largely and the sound of that is part of the equation. It's not a studio monitor like precison speaker, that is true, but it's a system that works very well in an average living room.
The reason why i stress on that is that i see that many modern designs are just to complex for diy'ers without years or decades of experience. You need well studied good sounding starter kits also, and this could be one of them. Like not every car should be a ferrari or a porche, not every speaker need to be as clean and neutral as a Genelec or similar monitor speaker. For many a volkswagen golf is good enough. You need to have the variety of designs to keep the younger enter this hobby. Now they move to other sites (FB, Reditt) because the speaker section of diy audio became to much "for advanced builders only". That may be not what you see who are only here, but i see that everyday because i'm on many platforms active.
Yes @waxx you have stated your position and I have acknowledged and understood this.
@wafflesomd post's about Here's something I prepared earlier: Warning #1
Now he's made another, alluding wide-narrow-wide directivity transition. Warning #2
Here's the current state, made by the star of this show @A4eaudio *:
It was wreaking havoc between 1-2KHz in all directions, for all 3 drivers, as demonstrated by his tireless measurements :
(A)
So if builder builds a 6-sided box of this format, it will inherit these traits, irrespective of the driver
One option is to off-set the midrange and tweeter, like what JBL, Wharfedale and @wafflesomd did:
This improves the on-axis response. But he has already warned us about proceeding down this path.
Now... here are two other big box 3-way speakers.
Like the 3-way monkey box classics, they both have the centered tweeter and midrange-
Readers may be wondering- what are these curious looking concave surfaces close to the MF and HF?
These function to
1) protect / shield the wave-front from the midrange and tweeter from sharp edges of the baffle, and thus mitigate diffraction
2) shape the wave-front for a closer directivity transition between the woofer, midrange and tweeter.
So the design could look something like the basic 6 sided box that anyone should be able to build on their kitchen table.
But then, an upgraded-baffle can be placed over the existing speaker.
It's now a double thickness baffle.
It provides for the diffraction mitigation.
Smooth directivity transitioning.
For DIYers who are not able to fashion such a thing, it could be 3D printed via an on-line cloud service and drop-shipped to one's door. Then you simply screw into onto the existing baffle (much in the way a speaker grill is done). Yes it will need a different crossover, but likely need even fewer parts the basic 6 sided box.
We already have the talent to support this 3D modelling of what will be required.
What do you say @fluid @DcibeL about polishing thistu 1970s classic car speaker?
@wafflesomd post's about Here's something I prepared earlier: Warning #1
Now he's made another, alluding wide-narrow-wide directivity transition. Warning #2
Here's the current state, made by the star of this show @A4eaudio *:
It was wreaking havoc between 1-2KHz in all directions, for all 3 drivers, as demonstrated by his tireless measurements :
(A)
So if builder builds a 6-sided box of this format, it will inherit these traits, irrespective of the driver
One option is to off-set the midrange and tweeter, like what JBL, Wharfedale and @wafflesomd did:
This improves the on-axis response. But he has already warned us about proceeding down this path.
Now... here are two other big box 3-way speakers.
Like the 3-way monkey box classics, they both have the centered tweeter and midrange-
Readers may be wondering- what are these curious looking concave surfaces close to the MF and HF?
These function to
1) protect / shield the wave-front from the midrange and tweeter from sharp edges of the baffle, and thus mitigate diffraction
2) shape the wave-front for a closer directivity transition between the woofer, midrange and tweeter.
So the design could look something like the basic 6 sided box that anyone should be able to build on their kitchen table.
But then, an upgraded-baffle can be placed over the existing speaker.
It's now a double thickness baffle.
It provides for the diffraction mitigation.
Smooth directivity transitioning.
For DIYers who are not able to fashion such a thing, it could be 3D printed via an on-line cloud service and drop-shipped to one's door. Then you simply screw into onto the existing baffle (much in the way a speaker grill is done). Yes it will need a different crossover, but likely need even fewer parts the basic 6 sided box.
We already have the talent to support this 3D modelling of what will be required.
What do you say @fluid @DcibeL about polishing this
Last edited:
A removable half-baffle would likely be cheaper, more flexible and could be kept to allow the speaker to work on it's side but, as other have said, it is a good plan for a measurement based approach.
A waveguide on the tweeter need not involve much cost, can be small (e.g. SEAS DXT and other tweeters with integral small waveguides) and so not intrude on the aesthetics to any great extent and is likely to bring significant improvements. Whether the improved performance is worth the extra cost perhaps needs assessing but it would seem to be a good option to consider.
A waveguide on the midrange has more associated costs beyond that of how to manufacture it if the advantages it can bring are to be fully included. Firstly a small midrange driver will require the woofer to run upto high frequencies while also running down to a useable low frequency and maintaining a reasonable efficiency. That is, a typical woofer used in studio monitors which are not cheap. Secondly, capable small midrange drivers with sufficient motor to keep up are not common. The obvious ones are expensive/absurdly expensive but there may be a small pro driver that fits the budget but will it be of adequate quality? Plus, of course, a waveguide on the midrange is going to break the aesthetics for some perhaps many. Might be worth assessing as a paper exercise in order to firmly include or exclude as an option?
That's possible. But I don't think it feets the goal of this speaker.
They made it some time ago on a french forum. They did a really good job:
sb26stac
3fe25
STX 8 woofer.
Real Bargain speaker. Measurement for the STX is better than the SLS12 and near of the WO24. (but it cost 27 euros). I did not propose the 12 inch version because it is not available outside europe.
This was looking like this and at the time they made it (600 pages on the forum) they did a group buy and someone did the front of the baffle.
I think only 1 guy did it after this because to complex compared to standard flush mount drivers.
Of course we can make several versions changing woofer/mid/tweete/baffle . But at the end it is just not the same speaker ...
They made it some time ago on a french forum. They did a really good job:
sb26stac
3fe25
STX 8 woofer.
Real Bargain speaker. Measurement for the STX is better than the SLS12 and near of the WO24. (but it cost 27 euros). I did not propose the 12 inch version because it is not available outside europe.
This was looking like this and at the time they made it (600 pages on the forum) they did a group buy and someone did the front of the baffle.
I think only 1 guy did it after this because to complex compared to standard flush mount drivers.
Of course we can make several versions changing woofer/mid/tweete/baffle . But at the end it is just not the same speaker ...
One of the 4" FaitalPros with demodulation rings and 30-40W power handling for £30 might be OK(ish) on a waveguide. Power handling is significiantly less than ideal but that is likely to be unavoidable for some parameters with an aggressively low budget for drivers. So suitable(ish) drivers may not be a stopper for a waveguide midrange though I haven't looked closely. Cost, complexity, aesthetics,... may rule it out though. Would be good to firm up on a decision so that the option goes away or becomes part of the path forward.
A waveguide or not on the tweeter would seem to be a trickier decision to firm up on.
I suggested (and measured) the 4FE42 in this post
I agree that the ferrite version with the copper cap 4FE35 is also a suitable candidate at €27 ea. Power handling is based on AES ie. 2hours continuous pink noise, as a midrange band-passed between typical 400Hz to 4KHz with music content, the woofer will be more limited than the midrange for maximum SPL.
But it appears that the 5” midrange is what the group wants.
I don’t think anyone has purchased the SLS 12” yet. @pefpef could you please link to the “measurement for the STX 8 is better than the SLS12”?
I agree that the ferrite version with the copper cap 4FE35 is also a suitable candidate at €27 ea. Power handling is based on AES ie. 2hours continuous pink noise, as a midrange band-passed between typical 400Hz to 4KHz with music content, the woofer will be more limited than the midrange for maximum SPL.
But it appears that the 5” midrange is what the group wants.
I don’t think anyone has purchased the SLS 12” yet. @pefpef could you please link to the “measurement for the STX 8 is better than the SLS12”?
Last edited:
A non-waveguided tweeter would want to cross higher. It also needs to be further below breakup. You'll want a smaller midrange than the waveguided version.
I would personally try the 5fe120/125: (and I like the square shape of the 120: not centered it can realy look like the JBL 100).
Here is the comparison https://audiohorn.net/test/woofer/8inch/
Audiohorn.net is comparing the STX 8 to the Tymphany Peerless HDS-P830869, which is an 8" HDS driver.
Certainly looks to be a good driver. But the Peerless SLS 12" is the 830889, and was not compared there.
Certainly looks to be a good driver. But the Peerless SLS 12" is the 830889, and was not compared there.
I was only mentioning the 4" FaitalPros in conjunction with a waveguide to help determine if a waveguide on a small midrange is being considered as part of the project or not. Given the strength of interest in a 4-6.5" midrange on a flat baffle in the thread where midrange waveguides are included I had assumed not but recent posts seem to suggest otherwise. Mind you I had also thought a woofer had been settled on so perhaps I am just getting hold of the wrong end of the stick and it is just chatting.
My interest is of course that if the spec of the speaker in this thread is moving up in performance, complexity and price towards that of the earlier thread there would seem to be little need for separate projects. But is it though?
Yes, come join us here as we work together to discover how a good ?great speaker might be designed. A lot of us keyboard warriors have a lot of opinions, some of us are discussing engineering compromises, but @A4eaudio taken the lead with pulling up his shirt sleeves, and @hifijim is set to follow. @wafflesomd has already designed and built his own 3-way large stand-mount speaker (post #2) so we are very lucky to have his involvement.
Boutique fancyllium parts- this includes cones, domes, caps, inductors or resistors not included!
Boutique fancyllium parts- this includes cones, domes, caps, inductors or resistors not included!
Last edited:
Imo, if this project is to be interesting to a broader group of potential builders, then it would make sense to
make it resemble to JBL L100 as close as possible. JBL sells for over € 4k. If we present this project as a JBL substitute
for 1/8th of the official price, then it should appear very desirable from cost/benefit and simple to build point of view.
make it resemble to JBL L100 as close as possible. JBL sells for over € 4k. If we present this project as a JBL substitute
for 1/8th of the official price, then it should appear very desirable from cost/benefit and simple to build point of view.
My Bad it was a mistake when I wrote . We are so much talking about this sls12...
They compare the 8 with the 8 wich is normal...
But I did not propose to have a look at the 12 version because it is not available outside Europe.
Even if it was available, The 6 isn't good so it would have needed to look at disto of the bigger one.
Then why you are immediatly pushing the subject in the other direction again all the time. We don't need another very complex expensive project that is not a classic monkey box i thought, but all you do is pushing it back in that direction, and then you wonder why nobody wants to engage. That type of speaker is done already, a few times. So why do it again?
But i will unsubscribe from this tread. It seems that those most active want to move away from the original concept and just make another copy of the same speaker again. I'm waisting my time here...
Not sure that is the case. I can see no solid contributions concerning waveguides only chat. The strongest contributions so far have involved drivers on flat baffles. There is every chance those contributing most will firm up on a midrange on a flat baffle (if they haven't done so already) because that is/was normal for speakers of this kind. Don't know about a tweeter waveguide given integral ones are common (e.g. current JBL 100 mentioned above), they are low cost and likely to help performance noticeably.
@waxx - please do not unsubscribe from the thread. I think you are provided great insights regarding someone who is likely to actually build a budget monkey coffin design. Your post above regarding limited tools to many DIYers is exactly something we need to keep in mind.
As far as taking a long time to make decisions... Remember this thread started as a discussion to really move the conversation out of the other thread so as not to derail it. I think talking about things that could technically be considered off-topic are fine. We can talk all we want about directivity and state of the art, and will do our best with choice of drivers and xo design... But in the end this is going to look a lot like a JBL L100 and nothing like the KEF Blade or B&W Nautilus... And that is okay (just not for everyone)
Apologies, I am on the opposite side of the planet. From where I sit, there are all kinds of flat baffle 3-way monkey box speakers already designed. I thought it was this is "just make another copy of the same speaker again" Paul Carmody has a couple of designs, Troels Gravesen with many designs with many different brands/models drivers, the OSMC with top priced drivers.
To me they are all 3-way monkey boxes, which is basically a 3-way large stand mount speaker. Where are all these designs with the shallow horns for the midrange and waveguides for the tweeters, and 10-12" ported woofers that will cost a only a few hundred € / $ to build?
Perhaps I need to check out the Belgium DIY scene?!
To me they are all 3-way monkey boxes, which is basically a 3-way large stand mount speaker. Where are all these designs with the shallow horns for the midrange and waveguides for the tweeters, and 10-12" ported woofers that will cost a only a few hundred € / $ to build?
Perhaps I need to check out the Belgium DIY scene?!
I received my sb12mnrx2 and I have the sb26stac on the shelf.
Not my priority at all but I will try to make a test baffle of the Gema (3cm wider but it should not change the response so much)
I do think we need to stick on commercially available stuff. Mayyybeee a little waveguide if we can buy it on something like JLPCB and doesn't cost too much.
3D printing a double waveguide for a tweet and mid need a bigger 3d printer than a standard one and finish is not easy if you doesn't want an ugly plate on your baffle. If you want something nice it means CNC and we are far from the chip and easy to build cabinet ...
Not my priority at all but I will try to make a test baffle of the Gema (3cm wider but it should not change the response so much)
I do think we need to stick on commercially available stuff. Mayyybeee a little waveguide if we can buy it on something like JLPCB and doesn't cost too much.
3D printing a double waveguide for a tweet and mid need a bigger 3d printer than a standard one and finish is not easy if you doesn't want an ugly plate on your baffle. If you want something nice it means CNC and we are far from the chip and easy to build cabinet ...
Neither Paul nor Troels provide detailed measurements that many builders expect/want these days. The Wharfedale Linton you posted earlier proves that the Classic 3-way CAN be done right, while other speakers reviewed by Erin and Amirm show that they are often not done well.
Most of Troels' designs are not open source or "budget" builds.
An easy to build 3-way classic, that performs like the Wharfedale (with detailed objective measurements to prove it), looks similar to the JBL 100, but all-in costs literally 20% of the JBL, 25% of the KLH Model Five, or 50% of the Wharfedale, is appealing to many people.
The reason I want to make two versions (one with and without a waveguide) is that the convincing case was made that many people simply wouldn't build it if they need to print or order the waveguide. (As someone who owns a 3D printer that doesn't reflect my situation, so I keep trying to understand other's perspectives.)
For the SB26ADC or SB26STAC, AugerPro/Somasonus has designed excellent waveguides that we can tweak if needed - for those who want to go that route. Or if we choose a different tweeter we can design a waveguide - there are some pretty smart people on this forum.