Re: BG Sonics ? ......
-174dB is 2nV/V, or .0000002% (.2 micropercent).
If you have cubic money to spend, perhaps it is possible. I was unable to find the setup they claim to have used.
I agree with Jan: these "technical reports" are barely sales literature. There is little technical content, and lots of unsupported fluff. The cartoons alone take away much credibility. I particularlt like the titles of these articles:
Article 28: "Television Replaced with Black Gates is Superiour to any Ordinary TVs."
Article 53: "Every Amplifier First Reproduces Perfect Sound with Black Gate."
Article 76, which isn't even on the web site: "Negative Feedback (NF) Amplifier Will be Perfect with Super E-Caps."
Perhaps I should replace all the caps in my 14 y/o 13" Samsung TV in the closet? Surely that will make the picture brighter, improve the contrast, and eliminate ghosting? Maybe that will even make it nicer than an HDTV plasmascreen? Surely using all BGs will make my $5.00 transistor radio sound perfect? Give me a break.
Regards,
Mark Broker
mrfeedback said:
-174dB is 2nV/V, or .0000002% (.2 micropercent).
If you have cubic money to spend, perhaps it is possible. I was unable to find the setup they claim to have used.I agree with Jan: these "technical reports" are barely sales literature. There is little technical content, and lots of unsupported fluff. The cartoons alone take away much credibility. I particularlt like the titles of these articles:
Article 28: "Television Replaced with Black Gates is Superiour to any Ordinary TVs."
Article 53: "Every Amplifier First Reproduces Perfect Sound with Black Gate."
Article 76, which isn't even on the web site: "Negative Feedback (NF) Amplifier Will be Perfect with Super E-Caps."
Perhaps I should replace all the caps in my 14 y/o 13" Samsung TV in the closet? Surely that will make the picture brighter, improve the contrast, and eliminate ghosting? Maybe that will even make it nicer than an HDTV plasmascreen? Surely using all BGs will make my $5.00 transistor radio sound perfect? Give me a break.
Regards,
Mark Broker
Hi Jan,
Firstly, please believe me that I don't wish to cross swords with you on this matter, but just when I believed that most of the comments were becoming more sensible and fair about BGs, you posted some remarks which were clearly controversial and hardly complimentary about these caps (or their makers, or their maker's literature) still not having read much about them or having tried any of them!
I don't want to pick on every word you have said but the following quotations are pertinent.
"These BG people have all the power from [the] internet to make clear what it is that sets them apart from the crowd".
Jan, Jelmax are not obliged to do this whether they have the power or not, nor (if they simply happen to be quite lousy in expressing themselves and there are some silly translations from Japanese, together with some rather juvenile illustrations) do these apparent 'shortcomings' qualify the product in any way. i.e. good, or bad. *No*. It is *entirely irrelevant*!!!
Subsequently, you go on to say " If they really have something, it can be said in just a few lines". Well, maybe they cannot express themselves in just a few lines, for whatever reason, but perhaps if you would kindly adopt my suggestion of reading *all* of their reports, you would get the 'drift' of some of their claims rather better. I doubt that much of Einstein's theory can be explained in just a few lines, but does this also matter, and cast any doubts on anything?
Once again, what you said here is entirely irrelevant, especially taking into account your following remark: "My conclusion can only be there really isn't anything that sets them apart". !!!
You (quite rightly) pulled me up for (wrongly) suggesting that you had derided BGs, instead of me keeping precisely to the exact words you used and what you had said previously, verbatim, (which I now accept was *only*about their literature) although I am quite satisfied in my own mind that you were not exactly posting such comments in order to sing the praises of BG caps.
However, how can you possibly come to any intelligent and 'reasoned' conclusion that "there really isn't anything that sets them apart" when you are merely basing this remark on Jelmax's ability, or otherwise, to explain themselves or to adequately describe their products?
This is exactly like saying "The local Ford salesman is useless, and his brochures are poor, so Ford cars cannot be any better than any others." These matters (similar to the *only* 'yardsticks' you quoted in connection with reaching your very important conclusion) do not have anything whatsoever to do with the quality or goodness of the cars, themselves.
So if you genuinely did reach the conclusion which you earlier stated, and for the reasons clearly given, my opinion of your ability to confine yourself to what is relevant and of any real significance, has taken a massive dive!
Later on you said "I'd rather someone tell me I am wrong......pass up the chance to teach me something" and went on to say "and nobody told me I was wrong".
With respect, this was precisely what I was attempting to do, as politely as possible (bearing in mind my frustration in dealing with someone who I had previously considered to be an intelligent individual) when I commented on what you had just posted.
Again, even if I expressed myself badly (and I don't consider I did) it does not invalidate my comments about your approach to this particular issue.
I have not suggested that all of what Jelmax have said makes sense, nor that you (nor anyone) should believe it all, indeed, on two occasions I have said quite the opposite.
I have taken up your invitation, at least to attempt to "teach you something" and "tell you, you were wrong", but you simply won't read the relevant information *before* making any further scathing, and in my own view, rather antagonistic, comments on it!
Why I should waste any more time in doing this I don't know, but, hitherto, I had a considerable regard for what I have read of yours, going back a long while to various comments/articles etc., in TAA and its successors, so this is my last try.
Please read the following few reports, which I have picked out quite quickly (and against my better judgement as I have little doubt that it is simply another waste of time) in order to assist you.
Therein you will find details of Jelmax's, apparently, *patented* "electron transfer", which is an entirely different way of making electrolytic caps effectively operate (or so they claim!), graphs of comparative harmonic distortions of different caps, details of how their construction differs from the norm and the consequent differences in their (rather important) ESR characteristics, comments about different types of caps and their attendant distortion characteristics, and the name of at least one manufacturer who appears to have found these caps beneficial in one of their designs. (Elsewhere there are similar quotes about other 'named' manufacturers, whom I would have thought would have reacted if these quotes were bogus, so you should be able to check on these as well).
Somewhere, I seem to recall their 'claimed' patent number is quoted so you should be able to look this up and duly shoot that down, but I presume that if any such patent has been granted, there must be something at least a little different about their construction and operation from bog-standard electrolytics, unless the patent officer was a complete idiot!
Whether that is considered "something that sets them apart from from the crowd or not", I simply don't care as all I do care about is how they sound in a circuit!
Interestingly, these details which I earlier referred you to have only been on this site for just under one year, but I had already tried BGs (and found them to be very good) over a year before I read *any* of these reports, but some of the 'recommended uses' etc., have subsequently been useful to me, as have some of the other comparisons regarding capacitors which Jelmax don't make, and which, presumably, they don't have any axe to grind about.
Try Black Gate Reports: 46, 16, 18B, 51A & 51B, 85A & 85B, and 27.
This is, of course, only a smattering of the information contained within the 120 or so reports, and in some cases they are rather badly worded, with some childike illustrations (as I have said before) but if you will take the trouble, it is possible to gain an idea of what Jelmax are trying to say. Of course, as I have said twice before in this thread, Jelmax are attempting to increase their sales with these reports, and many of them are not very technical (call them horsemanure, if that happens to amuse you), but maybe they are (probably mistakenly) trying to appeal to the less technical readers, but why get so 'up tight' about that?
For what it is worth, I have spent (wasted, perhaps?) probably half of all of my spare time over nearly 30 years in seeking out, and patiently listening to the sound of, components, in an attempt to find the very best, and I am still fervently looking.
Accordingly, the fact that probably a substantial proportion of this time was spent in reading useless or irrelevant information (and in conducting abortive trials!) is all part of what is necessary when you set your sights high. I have learned a lot about what to do (and even more about what is not so good!) in seeking the best sonic results from my system, and it is not out of smugness that I say I am very pleased with how it sounds (for now!).
Again, I am not endorsing any of Jelmax's claims nor the accuracy of what they have shown, but the information is there in all of the reports, and if anyone is too lazy to read them all, I am not going to do anything further to make it easy for them.
I would rather spend my time actually installing these caps and enjoying listening to them, whatever anyone (including Jelmax!)says about them, as I know they are 'sonically' the best I have yet come across.
I am grateful to Craig for advising me of a possible better alternative to BGs, and to Frank for advising me where to obtain these other electrolytics and where to see their technical information, and until I have read *all* of this information, *and* tried these alternatives for myself, I will have the sense to refrain from making any uniformed comments about them. Any *guesses* I may already have, are simply a waste of everyone's time!
So Jan, either adopt my suggestions and try hard to keep an open mind on this topic, or simply don't ask for comments by implying you are interested in getting to the bottom of such matters in a fair and reasonable way, and that you wish to be taught something or to be told you are wrong, if you really only wish to bury your head in the sand, for whatever illogical reasons.
I won't post anything more on this topic now, as it is merely wasting a lot of other peoples' time (and not the least my own) and, as I hate their disgraceful cost, and have no involvement with BGs other than as a satisfied user, I have no vested interest in trying to increase their sales!
Unlike someone else's suggestion, unfortunately I believe that if my enthusiasm for BGs does anything to increase their sales, suppliers will most likely see this as an opportunity to put their prices back up again, and I most certainly don't want to see that happen.
I have sincerely tried to be helpful, and honest, and simply share some of what I have found out for myself 'the hard way' through extended listening trials, and if you (or anyone else) don't wish to take any benefit from this, please rest assured that I won't lose any sleep over it.
Regards,
Firstly, please believe me that I don't wish to cross swords with you on this matter, but just when I believed that most of the comments were becoming more sensible and fair about BGs, you posted some remarks which were clearly controversial and hardly complimentary about these caps (or their makers, or their maker's literature) still not having read much about them or having tried any of them!
I don't want to pick on every word you have said but the following quotations are pertinent.
"These BG people have all the power from [the] internet to make clear what it is that sets them apart from the crowd".
Jan, Jelmax are not obliged to do this whether they have the power or not, nor (if they simply happen to be quite lousy in expressing themselves and there are some silly translations from Japanese, together with some rather juvenile illustrations) do these apparent 'shortcomings' qualify the product in any way. i.e. good, or bad. *No*. It is *entirely irrelevant*!!!
Subsequently, you go on to say " If they really have something, it can be said in just a few lines". Well, maybe they cannot express themselves in just a few lines, for whatever reason, but perhaps if you would kindly adopt my suggestion of reading *all* of their reports, you would get the 'drift' of some of their claims rather better. I doubt that much of Einstein's theory can be explained in just a few lines, but does this also matter, and cast any doubts on anything?
Once again, what you said here is entirely irrelevant, especially taking into account your following remark: "My conclusion can only be there really isn't anything that sets them apart". !!!
You (quite rightly) pulled me up for (wrongly) suggesting that you had derided BGs, instead of me keeping precisely to the exact words you used and what you had said previously, verbatim, (which I now accept was *only*about their literature) although I am quite satisfied in my own mind that you were not exactly posting such comments in order to sing the praises of BG caps.
However, how can you possibly come to any intelligent and 'reasoned' conclusion that "there really isn't anything that sets them apart" when you are merely basing this remark on Jelmax's ability, or otherwise, to explain themselves or to adequately describe their products?
This is exactly like saying "The local Ford salesman is useless, and his brochures are poor, so Ford cars cannot be any better than any others." These matters (similar to the *only* 'yardsticks' you quoted in connection with reaching your very important conclusion) do not have anything whatsoever to do with the quality or goodness of the cars, themselves.
So if you genuinely did reach the conclusion which you earlier stated, and for the reasons clearly given, my opinion of your ability to confine yourself to what is relevant and of any real significance, has taken a massive dive!
Later on you said "I'd rather someone tell me I am wrong......pass up the chance to teach me something" and went on to say "and nobody told me I was wrong".
With respect, this was precisely what I was attempting to do, as politely as possible (bearing in mind my frustration in dealing with someone who I had previously considered to be an intelligent individual) when I commented on what you had just posted.
Again, even if I expressed myself badly (and I don't consider I did) it does not invalidate my comments about your approach to this particular issue.
I have not suggested that all of what Jelmax have said makes sense, nor that you (nor anyone) should believe it all, indeed, on two occasions I have said quite the opposite.
I have taken up your invitation, at least to attempt to "teach you something" and "tell you, you were wrong", but you simply won't read the relevant information *before* making any further scathing, and in my own view, rather antagonistic, comments on it!
Why I should waste any more time in doing this I don't know, but, hitherto, I had a considerable regard for what I have read of yours, going back a long while to various comments/articles etc., in TAA and its successors, so this is my last try.
Please read the following few reports, which I have picked out quite quickly (and against my better judgement as I have little doubt that it is simply another waste of time) in order to assist you.
Therein you will find details of Jelmax's, apparently, *patented* "electron transfer", which is an entirely different way of making electrolytic caps effectively operate (or so they claim!), graphs of comparative harmonic distortions of different caps, details of how their construction differs from the norm and the consequent differences in their (rather important) ESR characteristics, comments about different types of caps and their attendant distortion characteristics, and the name of at least one manufacturer who appears to have found these caps beneficial in one of their designs. (Elsewhere there are similar quotes about other 'named' manufacturers, whom I would have thought would have reacted if these quotes were bogus, so you should be able to check on these as well).
Somewhere, I seem to recall their 'claimed' patent number is quoted so you should be able to look this up and duly shoot that down, but I presume that if any such patent has been granted, there must be something at least a little different about their construction and operation from bog-standard electrolytics, unless the patent officer was a complete idiot!
Whether that is considered "something that sets them apart from from the crowd or not", I simply don't care as all I do care about is how they sound in a circuit!
Interestingly, these details which I earlier referred you to have only been on this site for just under one year, but I had already tried BGs (and found them to be very good) over a year before I read *any* of these reports, but some of the 'recommended uses' etc., have subsequently been useful to me, as have some of the other comparisons regarding capacitors which Jelmax don't make, and which, presumably, they don't have any axe to grind about.
Try Black Gate Reports: 46, 16, 18B, 51A & 51B, 85A & 85B, and 27.
This is, of course, only a smattering of the information contained within the 120 or so reports, and in some cases they are rather badly worded, with some childike illustrations (as I have said before) but if you will take the trouble, it is possible to gain an idea of what Jelmax are trying to say. Of course, as I have said twice before in this thread, Jelmax are attempting to increase their sales with these reports, and many of them are not very technical (call them horsemanure, if that happens to amuse you), but maybe they are (probably mistakenly) trying to appeal to the less technical readers, but why get so 'up tight' about that?
For what it is worth, I have spent (wasted, perhaps?) probably half of all of my spare time over nearly 30 years in seeking out, and patiently listening to the sound of, components, in an attempt to find the very best, and I am still fervently looking.
Accordingly, the fact that probably a substantial proportion of this time was spent in reading useless or irrelevant information (and in conducting abortive trials!) is all part of what is necessary when you set your sights high. I have learned a lot about what to do (and even more about what is not so good!) in seeking the best sonic results from my system, and it is not out of smugness that I say I am very pleased with how it sounds (for now!).
Again, I am not endorsing any of Jelmax's claims nor the accuracy of what they have shown, but the information is there in all of the reports, and if anyone is too lazy to read them all, I am not going to do anything further to make it easy for them.
I would rather spend my time actually installing these caps and enjoying listening to them, whatever anyone (including Jelmax!)says about them, as I know they are 'sonically' the best I have yet come across.
I am grateful to Craig for advising me of a possible better alternative to BGs, and to Frank for advising me where to obtain these other electrolytics and where to see their technical information, and until I have read *all* of this information, *and* tried these alternatives for myself, I will have the sense to refrain from making any uniformed comments about them. Any *guesses* I may already have, are simply a waste of everyone's time!
So Jan, either adopt my suggestions and try hard to keep an open mind on this topic, or simply don't ask for comments by implying you are interested in getting to the bottom of such matters in a fair and reasonable way, and that you wish to be taught something or to be told you are wrong, if you really only wish to bury your head in the sand, for whatever illogical reasons.
I won't post anything more on this topic now, as it is merely wasting a lot of other peoples' time (and not the least my own) and, as I hate their disgraceful cost, and have no involvement with BGs other than as a satisfied user, I have no vested interest in trying to increase their sales!
Unlike someone else's suggestion, unfortunately I believe that if my enthusiasm for BGs does anything to increase their sales, suppliers will most likely see this as an opportunity to put their prices back up again, and I most certainly don't want to see that happen.
I have sincerely tried to be helpful, and honest, and simply share some of what I have found out for myself 'the hard way' through extended listening trials, and if you (or anyone else) don't wish to take any benefit from this, please rest assured that I won't lose any sleep over it.
Regards,
OSCAR WILDE
Hi,
"I have the simplest of tastes...I'm only satisfied with the best."
Now,I feel that would accurately describe both Bob,myself and quite a number of members.
Granted,the Jelmax techno babble is pretty worthless from a technical point of view still...the proof is in the pudding.
Little do all these naysayers realise that quite a number of big brandnames use the BG caps as coupling caps at the output of their CDPs?
And they,themselves probably listen to these caps every day not really knowing what exactly is used inside their players?
Downtalking a product is oh so easy,defending it with only field experience at hand is like playing Don Quichote.
In my 30 years of audio I always kept an open mind and I tried to keep my head on my shoulders as well...let me tell you it paid off in the long run.
Setting up systems,analysing circuits,evaluating passive components...you name it,we've gone full circle big time.
I know very few people that can analyse valve circuits faster then I can,being able to predict quite precisely how these are going to *sound* like in the real world and I can extend that to *minor* details such as chassis material used or to put it more bluntly one look at a TT and I will tell you what you can expect sonically already.
Naturally I don't know everything for a fact but at least I'm open minded enough to try before I pass judgement.
So for now I'm back to the shelter,
Hi,
"I have the simplest of tastes...I'm only satisfied with the best."
Now,I feel that would accurately describe both Bob,myself and quite a number of members.
Granted,the Jelmax techno babble is pretty worthless from a technical point of view still...the proof is in the pudding.
Little do all these naysayers realise that quite a number of big brandnames use the BG caps as coupling caps at the output of their CDPs?
And they,themselves probably listen to these caps every day not really knowing what exactly is used inside their players?
Downtalking a product is oh so easy,defending it with only field experience at hand is like playing Don Quichote.
In my 30 years of audio I always kept an open mind and I tried to keep my head on my shoulders as well...let me tell you it paid off in the long run.
Setting up systems,analysing circuits,evaluating passive components...you name it,we've gone full circle big time.
I know very few people that can analyse valve circuits faster then I can,being able to predict quite precisely how these are going to *sound* like in the real world and I can extend that to *minor* details such as chassis material used or to put it more bluntly one look at a TT and I will tell you what you can expect sonically already.
Naturally I don't know everything for a fact but at least I'm open minded enough to try before I pass judgement.
So for now I'm back to the shelter,
Hi mbroker,
I said I wouldn't say any more in this thread but I had not seen your post when I made that (quite reckless!) comment, and you sure ask for some retalliation!
I wish you would give yourself a break, as you have requested, and simply try listening to one of these caps.
What you have said, is little different from what Jan has gone on about, and it is entirely irrelevant for precisely the same reasons, to the sound, or goodness, or otherwise of these caps.
I for one listen to music, not to any literature, however good or bad it may be, so ridicule away to your heart's content, but, unlike some people, I do very carefully think about everything I post on the Forum, in case it might influence (even unwittingly) anyone else.
I really cannot help this one (he said rather tongue in cheek!)
Coming from someone who has just posted a daft and even quite dangerous suggestion in the thread about "Cable Ties - Tie Wraps", which I subsequently politely corrected for the safety of any other less-enlightened readers who may well have been lead astray, I am also not about to lose any sleep over what you have just said in this thread, particularly when your response to my correction was essentially "agreed" and verbatim "Its always the little things I forget"!!!
In fact it is *all* of the vast number of little things I don't forget, and which I am not too lazy to read about properly or to try out for myself, which has made my audio system so satisfying to listen to.
Touche.
Regards,
I said I wouldn't say any more in this thread but I had not seen your post when I made that (quite reckless!) comment, and you sure ask for some retalliation!
I wish you would give yourself a break, as you have requested, and simply try listening to one of these caps.
What you have said, is little different from what Jan has gone on about, and it is entirely irrelevant for precisely the same reasons, to the sound, or goodness, or otherwise of these caps.
I for one listen to music, not to any literature, however good or bad it may be, so ridicule away to your heart's content, but, unlike some people, I do very carefully think about everything I post on the Forum, in case it might influence (even unwittingly) anyone else.
I really cannot help this one (he said rather tongue in cheek!)
Coming from someone who has just posted a daft and even quite dangerous suggestion in the thread about "Cable Ties - Tie Wraps", which I subsequently politely corrected for the safety of any other less-enlightened readers who may well have been lead astray, I am also not about to lose any sleep over what you have just said in this thread, particularly when your response to my correction was essentially "agreed" and verbatim "Its always the little things I forget"!!!
In fact it is *all* of the vast number of little things I don't forget, and which I am not too lazy to read about properly or to try out for myself, which has made my audio system so satisfying to listen to.
Touche.
Regards,
FTR, I would have deleted my post in the other thread had it not been replied to and/or the time limit expired. My "little things" comment was sarcasm, meaning I tend to overlook the obvious moreso than the obscure. I guess I should have made that more apparent.
I won't argue BGs sound better, same, or worse than other caps, because I haven't tried them. Like Jan, I was giving a technical critique of their "technical papers," as Peranders requested in the opening post. Having read a few, and scanned through a few more, I can say is that I was extremely unimpressed with the content. The papers were more like marketing and news pamphlets that would be displayed in a store next to the BG stand than genuine "technical" papers. Little supporting data was given for almost every claim. Although there were some graphs and comparisons, little mention went to setup and test conditions and equipment. To top it all off, and I'm sure it's partly a translation issue, the 3 titles I referenced above are outright false. I feel all this detracts significantly from their credibility.
Compare their papers to one or more from Cornell-Dubilier or WIMA.
FWIW, based on the overwhelming consensus, I'm rather convinced they do improve the sound. Perhaps when I recover from sticker shock and find a few hundred bucks, I'll replace all the caps in my HT amp, since, according to Tech Paper 25, "it is a waste of effort to change only some of the capacitors on the circuits."
Mark Broker
I guess I should have made that more apparent. I won't argue BGs sound better, same, or worse than other caps, because I haven't tried them. Like Jan, I was giving a technical critique of their "technical papers," as Peranders requested in the opening post. Having read a few, and scanned through a few more, I can say is that I was extremely unimpressed with the content. The papers were more like marketing and news pamphlets that would be displayed in a store next to the BG stand than genuine "technical" papers. Little supporting data was given for almost every claim. Although there were some graphs and comparisons, little mention went to setup and test conditions and equipment. To top it all off, and I'm sure it's partly a translation issue, the 3 titles I referenced above are outright false. I feel all this detracts significantly from their credibility.
Compare their papers to one or more from Cornell-Dubilier or WIMA.
FWIW, based on the overwhelming consensus, I'm rather convinced they do improve the sound. Perhaps when I recover from sticker shock and find a few hundred bucks, I'll replace all the caps in my HT amp, since, according to Tech Paper 25, "it is a waste of effort to change only some of the capacitors on the circuits."
Mark Broker
Hi mbroker,
I am very relieved to see that things are returning to sanity in this thread, especially as these caps are so highly priced, resulting in many 'hopefuls' probably being reluctant to try them for themselves.
In fact, in general, I agree (and have done all along, as I have repeatedly said) with what you now say about Jelmax's literature.
It is very amateurish and not at all impressive, but, if you do take the trouble to read it all, you can gain a fairly good idea of what it is all about.
I only cautiously posted a reference to it (with appropriate caveats) because it had already been said that there was no (or very little) information available, which I well knew to be another untrue comment!
I also said that I don't know (and I still don't!) of any other manufacturer who has provided *so much* 'information', but whether it is all of any value or not, I was very careful *not* to give my opinions, on.
It appears that my concerns were well-founded in this regard, and, as I anticipated, there seemed to be a subsequent plethora of adverse comments from those who cannot wait to cast doubts on matters they do not fully understand, and who are unable to tell the wood from the trees!
What aggravates me are the continual apparently authoritative comments (as have been posted recently) which state some adverse conclusion about BGs when the parameters on which these questionable 'judgements' have been made are even more 'bogus' than BG's own quite appalling literature.
For anyone supposedly seeking the truth, or the best, or whatever, these futile attempts at discrediting *any* components don't do the writers any favours, and it saddens me to see so much time wasted.
For my part, I tried BGs long before I had seen any of their "technical reports" and my judgement (based solely on listening tests) which has been reinforced many time since those early days, is that they are the best readily available electrolytics that I have so far tried.
Now that Craig has suggested another 'contender', given time, I will try some in a fair comparison, and if the suggested Jensens are better overall, I will willingly change over to using them.
As I believe I said before, until Craig's post, no-one (except Jonathan Carr who said he understood why they were so popular, but who has the advantage over us by having his own 'specials' made) who has actually tried these rather different caps, has criticised their sonic attributes, nor said that they thought cap 'X' was better.
None of us likes the disgraceful cost, it seems, and the burn-in times, together with how these caps actually sound whilst burning-in, are a real pain in the proverbial, but, again, this does not really detract from their (ultimate) performance in a circuit.
Actually, it is my belief that Peranders really wished to know more about whether these caps are any good or not, rather than being intrinsically interested in the relevant literature, since, as I have consistently said, to anyone who is 'seriously' interested in BGs, it is rather immaterial.
Perhaps I am wrong here, but I am guessing that (like many others) he would only wish to use the information as a guide to deciding whether or not it is worth 'investing' in the not inconsiderable sum involved in trying some of these expensive caps out, and he would like to know if what has been said by Jelmax bears any semblance to the truth.
In this regard, and for whatever reason, we all seem to be in agreement that Jelmax don't do themselves any favours, but they are in a very different market from the usual big names in the capacitor world, and they are appealing possibly to a slightly different type of prospective user.
After all, no sensible user would take all that much notice of what any specs and other details might tell them, however well they are described (except in making the initial decision whether to give them a go or not, and whether they appear to be suited to the intended purpose). They would surely rather know how the components actually perform when they are used in a circuit, which, we also well know, can vary quite a lot from what might be anticipated from merely looking at specifications etc., alone.
Comparing Graphs of say ESR, or the like, might initially indicate whether a part is simply a waste of time from the sonics aspect, but they will never give an accurate indication of what the ultimate sound will be like, unfortunately.
Quite honestly, you shouldn't take much (if any) notice of my comments on the sonic goodness of BGs (even though the overwhelming consensus from *users* seems to agree with me), but I do hope that my 'enthusiasm' might encourage you and Jan to overcome this 'hurdle' of apparently being reluctant, and try some out for yourselves.
You might just be agreeably surprised, but, if not, at least you will know from personal experience, and I would be very interested to learn of your findings in due course.
The low values of BG NX HiQs are only a dollar or two, so why not do as you suggest, and get hold of some to try? I personally wouldn't take too much notice of Jelmax's 'exclusive use' comment, since, as I have said several times, they are attempting to promote their sales in these reports, but how unusual is that?
They may even have something here, and the distortion caused by 'other' caps might not be able to be eliminated, but you should hear some quite distinct improvements with one or two carefully chosen substitutions in a suitable circuit.
It is interesting that in a tuner of mine that is (virtually?) all BG'd now, that it does sound quite remarkable to me compared with how it was before, but I have changed many other components in this same tuner as well.
Regards,
I am very relieved to see that things are returning to sanity in this thread, especially as these caps are so highly priced, resulting in many 'hopefuls' probably being reluctant to try them for themselves.
In fact, in general, I agree (and have done all along, as I have repeatedly said) with what you now say about Jelmax's literature.
It is very amateurish and not at all impressive, but, if you do take the trouble to read it all, you can gain a fairly good idea of what it is all about.
I only cautiously posted a reference to it (with appropriate caveats) because it had already been said that there was no (or very little) information available, which I well knew to be another untrue comment!
I also said that I don't know (and I still don't!) of any other manufacturer who has provided *so much* 'information', but whether it is all of any value or not, I was very careful *not* to give my opinions, on.
It appears that my concerns were well-founded in this regard, and, as I anticipated, there seemed to be a subsequent plethora of adverse comments from those who cannot wait to cast doubts on matters they do not fully understand, and who are unable to tell the wood from the trees!
What aggravates me are the continual apparently authoritative comments (as have been posted recently) which state some adverse conclusion about BGs when the parameters on which these questionable 'judgements' have been made are even more 'bogus' than BG's own quite appalling literature.
For anyone supposedly seeking the truth, or the best, or whatever, these futile attempts at discrediting *any* components don't do the writers any favours, and it saddens me to see so much time wasted.
For my part, I tried BGs long before I had seen any of their "technical reports" and my judgement (based solely on listening tests) which has been reinforced many time since those early days, is that they are the best readily available electrolytics that I have so far tried.
Now that Craig has suggested another 'contender', given time, I will try some in a fair comparison, and if the suggested Jensens are better overall, I will willingly change over to using them.
As I believe I said before, until Craig's post, no-one (except Jonathan Carr who said he understood why they were so popular, but who has the advantage over us by having his own 'specials' made) who has actually tried these rather different caps, has criticised their sonic attributes, nor said that they thought cap 'X' was better.
None of us likes the disgraceful cost, it seems, and the burn-in times, together with how these caps actually sound whilst burning-in, are a real pain in the proverbial, but, again, this does not really detract from their (ultimate) performance in a circuit.
Actually, it is my belief that Peranders really wished to know more about whether these caps are any good or not, rather than being intrinsically interested in the relevant literature, since, as I have consistently said, to anyone who is 'seriously' interested in BGs, it is rather immaterial.
Perhaps I am wrong here, but I am guessing that (like many others) he would only wish to use the information as a guide to deciding whether or not it is worth 'investing' in the not inconsiderable sum involved in trying some of these expensive caps out, and he would like to know if what has been said by Jelmax bears any semblance to the truth.
In this regard, and for whatever reason, we all seem to be in agreement that Jelmax don't do themselves any favours, but they are in a very different market from the usual big names in the capacitor world, and they are appealing possibly to a slightly different type of prospective user.
After all, no sensible user would take all that much notice of what any specs and other details might tell them, however well they are described (except in making the initial decision whether to give them a go or not, and whether they appear to be suited to the intended purpose). They would surely rather know how the components actually perform when they are used in a circuit, which, we also well know, can vary quite a lot from what might be anticipated from merely looking at specifications etc., alone.
Comparing Graphs of say ESR, or the like, might initially indicate whether a part is simply a waste of time from the sonics aspect, but they will never give an accurate indication of what the ultimate sound will be like, unfortunately.
Quite honestly, you shouldn't take much (if any) notice of my comments on the sonic goodness of BGs (even though the overwhelming consensus from *users* seems to agree with me), but I do hope that my 'enthusiasm' might encourage you and Jan to overcome this 'hurdle' of apparently being reluctant, and try some out for yourselves.
You might just be agreeably surprised, but, if not, at least you will know from personal experience, and I would be very interested to learn of your findings in due course.
The low values of BG NX HiQs are only a dollar or two, so why not do as you suggest, and get hold of some to try? I personally wouldn't take too much notice of Jelmax's 'exclusive use' comment, since, as I have said several times, they are attempting to promote their sales in these reports, but how unusual is that?
They may even have something here, and the distortion caused by 'other' caps might not be able to be eliminated, but you should hear some quite distinct improvements with one or two carefully chosen substitutions in a suitable circuit.
It is interesting that in a tuner of mine that is (virtually?) all BG'd now, that it does sound quite remarkable to me compared with how it was before, but I have changed many other components in this same tuner as well.
Regards,
Patents ...
FYI Link to US patents as ref'd in BG litrature
(No's 4,345,302; 5,057,972; 5,379,181) :-
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...4345302&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt
AND
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...ine+Search&Refine=Refine+Search&Query=5057972
It is intersting that the 'graphite' doped electrolyte is also ref'd, for example, in US patent 4009424 by Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd in '77. (link available from patent 4,345,302 ) - not so unique then
(I can't see any images form this site so I can't examine any earlier patents - like I wanted too )
DRC
FYI Link to US patents as ref'd in BG litrature
(No's 4,345,302; 5,057,972; 5,379,181) :-
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...4345302&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt
AND
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...ine+Search&Refine=Refine+Search&Query=5057972
It is intersting that the 'graphite' doped electrolyte is also ref'd, for example, in US patent 4009424 by Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd in '77. (link available from patent 4,345,302 ) - not so unique then
(I can't see any images form this site so I can't examine any earlier patents -
like I wanted too )DRC
Re: Patents ...
It is intersting that the 'graphite' doped electrolyte is also ref'd, for example, in US patent 4009424 by Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd in '77. (link available from patent 4,345,302 ) - not so unique then
DRC [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, it is interesting from the curiosity viewpoint, but that is where it ends for me, since, as to whose idea it was, or whether it has been used by anyone else before, it doesn't really have any bearing on whether BGs are good-sounding caps or not.
I merely referred to Jelmax's "claimed" patent because Jan had earlier suggested that there was nothing out of the ordinary about BGs, and I certainly wouldn't waste any time of my own in searching out such a patent as it would not tell me any more than I already know about their sound, which is all I really care about.
I don't know whether this throws any more light on the 'curiosity aspect' or not, but Matsushita are a huge corporation, and although I don't know anything about this company's makeup, I guess they will have quite a few subsidiaries within their organisation.
The reason I mention this is that when I first obtained a couple of BGs (about 10 years ago) they were fabricated by Rubicon and bore the name of "Rubicon", together with "Black Gate", and were in a different package and finished in a colour which is not the same as any of the more recent BG series.
I have often wondered precisely who Jelmax are, especially as I had not heard of them until about two years ago. Apart from knowing they are in Japan, the only other thing I know about them is that, about 18 months ago, they completely ignored several e-mails from me when I was trying to find out some more about them and their products.
I cannot recall why I think this, but I am not generally in the habit of imagining things, and I don't think that Jelmax, themselves, actually manufacture these caps, anyway.
In view of DRC's comments, I now wonder if they are a subsidiary of Matsushita, possibly, or maybe if perhaps one of the Matsushita divisions/subsidiaries makes these caps for Jelmax.
Does anyone happen to know anything about these people, and where they appear to have sprung up from etc.?
Regards,
It is intersting that the 'graphite' doped electrolyte is also ref'd, for example, in US patent 4009424 by Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd in '77. (link available from patent 4,345,302 ) - not so unique then
DRC [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, it is interesting from the curiosity viewpoint, but that is where it ends for me, since, as to whose idea it was, or whether it has been used by anyone else before, it doesn't really have any bearing on whether BGs are good-sounding caps or not.
I merely referred to Jelmax's "claimed" patent because Jan had earlier suggested that there was nothing out of the ordinary about BGs, and I certainly wouldn't waste any time of my own in searching out such a patent as it would not tell me any more than I already know about their sound, which is all I really care about.
I don't know whether this throws any more light on the 'curiosity aspect' or not, but Matsushita are a huge corporation, and although I don't know anything about this company's makeup, I guess they will have quite a few subsidiaries within their organisation.
The reason I mention this is that when I first obtained a couple of BGs (about 10 years ago) they were fabricated by Rubicon and bore the name of "Rubicon", together with "Black Gate", and were in a different package and finished in a colour which is not the same as any of the more recent BG series.
I have often wondered precisely who Jelmax are, especially as I had not heard of them until about two years ago. Apart from knowing they are in Japan, the only other thing I know about them is that, about 18 months ago, they completely ignored several e-mails from me when I was trying to find out some more about them and their products.
I cannot recall why I think this, but I am not generally in the habit of imagining things, and I don't think that Jelmax, themselves, actually manufacture these caps, anyway.
In view of DRC's comments, I now wonder if they are a subsidiary of Matsushita, possibly, or maybe if perhaps one of the Matsushita divisions/subsidiaries makes these caps for Jelmax.
Does anyone happen to know anything about these people, and where they appear to have sprung up from etc.?
Regards,
Just had a quick look on the BG website, all the photos there show BGs marked as Rubycons...
AFAIK Philips have no shares in the big Matsushita group. There is/used to be a subsidiary Matsushita Electric or M... Components or whatever, which was roughly 50% owned by Philips until they divested some years ago.
However, knowing Japanese corporate structures, it is indeed more than likely that Rubycon is part of one of the few huge conglomerates.
While at it, might I once again point out that Maplin are clearing their Rubycon ZA and ZL stocks at stupid prices. I must have ordered about 800 of them by now
However, knowing Japanese corporate structures, it is indeed more than likely that Rubycon is part of one of the few huge conglomerates.
While at it, might I once again point out that Maplin are clearing their Rubycon ZA and ZL stocks at stupid prices. I must have ordered about 800 of them by now
Re: MULTINATIONALS
Hi Frank,
That is very interesting!
I may be getting a little long in the tooth, but it seems my guesswork isn't too bad, after all.
You may have seen, I will never normally 'stoop' to posting about matters which I don't know much about from personal experience, but I am glad I made an exception here in the way of this post, which was more by way of a query.
It just seemed like too much of a coincidence (just like everyone who has tried BGs *for themselves* seems to like them!), and I just don't believe in coincidences.
As to the packaging the others have mentioned, all those caps I have bought during the last two years (both from UK & Canada)
and I have had some from all of the series, I think, except the very high voltage ones for tubes, they are quite different from the earlier ones. There is no mention of 'R' nor of Rubicon, so I am guessing (again!!) that these may be from 'old' stocks, perhaps.
Anyway, the picture still unfolds, even though it is entirely academic as far as the sound of BGs goes.
Regards,
fdegrove said:Hi,
For info:
Jelmax is a spin off and part of the Matshushita Group which in turn is partly owned by Philips Netherlands.
Other makes being part of this are Marantz,Technics etc,etc...
It wouldn't surprise me one bit that Rubicon is part of this too.
Cheers,
Hi Frank,
That is very interesting!
I may be getting a little long in the tooth, but it seems my guesswork isn't too bad, after all.
You may have seen, I will never normally 'stoop' to posting about matters which I don't know much about from personal experience, but I am glad I made an exception here in the way of this post, which was more by way of a query.
It just seemed like too much of a coincidence (just like everyone who has tried BGs *for themselves* seems to like them!), and I just don't believe in coincidences.
As to the packaging the others have mentioned, all those caps I have bought during the last two years (both from UK & Canada)
and I have had some from all of the series, I think, except the very high voltage ones for tubes, they are quite different from the earlier ones. There is no mention of 'R' nor of Rubicon, so I am guessing (again!!) that these may be from 'old' stocks, perhaps.
Anyway, the picture still unfolds, even though it is entirely academic as far as the sound of BGs goes.
Regards,
Re: BG stuff
Hi Jan,
No, I did mean 85A & B, but having just tried the site, myself, you are quite correct in saying that they are not there.
I am sory if I gave you a bum steer, but I have all of these printed out in a folder because it was such a time-consuming and erratic business keep on referring to them on the PartsconneXion site.
I now wonder if these two pages were some of the (very few) I already had from somewhere else, before this site was set up, early last year.
It is a shame, since, although the matter is hardly life and death, these are some of the more informative reports I have seen.
I wonder if it is worth your contacting PartsconneXion about this as they have always seemed very helpful to me.
If it is of any help, I have been given an old scanner over Xmas, with some minimal software, which I am not yet familiar with.
If you like, I will try to scan these for you, and e-mail them on.
My only reservation is that when I tried to do something similar for someone else a few days ago, they said that they couldn't open the attachment, and I have not yet found out why.
As you now seem to want to look at these, I am quite prepared to try again, but don't hold it against me if I get it wrong, nor, if for whatever reason, you are ultimately disappointed with the reports!
I sincerely would like to help wherever I can, but there has to be some understanding in a matter like this, and I am not very motivated to help people who simply wish to destroy what I believe in (when it has been based on my own 'hard- earned' experiences), sometimes, it seems, simply for the hell of it.
Regards,
janneman said:
Hi Jan,
No, I did mean 85A & B, but having just tried the site, myself, you are quite correct in saying that they are not there.
I am sory if I gave you a bum steer, but I have all of these printed out in a folder because it was such a time-consuming and erratic business keep on referring to them on the PartsconneXion site.
I now wonder if these two pages were some of the (very few) I already had from somewhere else, before this site was set up, early last year.
It is a shame, since, although the matter is hardly life and death, these are some of the more informative reports I have seen.
I wonder if it is worth your contacting PartsconneXion about this as they have always seemed very helpful to me.
If it is of any help, I have been given an old scanner over Xmas, with some minimal software, which I am not yet familiar with.
If you like, I will try to scan these for you, and e-mail them on.
My only reservation is that when I tried to do something similar for someone else a few days ago, they said that they couldn't open the attachment, and I have not yet found out why.
As you now seem to want to look at these, I am quite prepared to try again, but don't hold it against me if I get it wrong, nor, if for whatever reason, you are ultimately disappointed with the reports!
I sincerely would like to help wherever I can, but there has to be some understanding in a matter like this, and I am not very motivated to help people who simply wish to destroy what I believe in (when it has been based on my own 'hard- earned' experiences), sometimes, it seems, simply for the hell of it.
Regards,
Re: Re: BG stuff
Bob,
I am very sorry that you think I "want to destroy you believe in". Nothing would be farther from the truth. Why is it that you take this so personally? I think this statement of yours is very telling. Are you sure you are objective about this?
I'll send you my fax nr separately, OK, can you fax those two reports to me?
Jan Didden
Bobken said:
[snip]
I sincerely would like to help wherever I can, but there has to be some understanding in a matter like this, and I am not very motivated to help people who simply wish to destroy what I believe in (when it has been based on my own 'hard- earned' experiences), sometimes, it seems, simply for the hell of it.
Regards,
Bob,
I am very sorry that you think I "want to destroy you believe in". Nothing would be farther from the truth. Why is it that you take this so personally? I think this statement of yours is very telling. Are you sure you are objective about this?
I'll send you my fax nr separately, OK, can you fax those two reports to me?
Jan Didden
mbroker said:
In case there was doubt, that was sarcasm.
I have actually been very strongly debating using a non-polar cap on my amp, but haven't found a 220uF in a voltage rating I'm comfortable with (need 10V minimum, and the NX is 6.3V). Although I think I would benefit far more by spending the money I'd save by not buying Black Gate caps for my amplifier to buy a better home theater preamp/decoder and some nicer speakers.
And The SOF (Significant Other Factor) dictates that the Wedding Fund comes first, and a bigger, nicer TV before new audio equipment. Could someone please explain the burn-in process of BG caps? I mean what are the physical changes that occur?
Thanks,
Mark Broker
Re: Re: Re: BG stuff
Hi Jan,
I am not taking anything personally, I can assure you, and if I had, I would hardly be offering you any help with this information, would I?
However, I have spent many hours (in total) posting on the Forum about BGs, mainly to encourage others to try them for themselves, instead of merely commenting on them without having had any personal experience of them, and possibly after reading only a very small proportion of what is in their literature.
Quite frankly, I don't personally care one bit whether anyone else uses or likes these caps, or not, but people should at least be fair and give them a chance before making so many uninformed remarks, which could (even inadvertently) sway other readers' opinions.
When I had gone to considerable trouble to post the earlier reference which was only done to overcome the supposed lack of available information (which had also been incorrectly stated in this thread), and then saw just the heading alone of your recent post " Black Gate = money blackhole?" together with some of the irrelevant comments which you made and which gave rise to your stated conclusion about these caps, I realised that I was simply wasting my time.
At that stage, I had begun to understand just why Jean-Paul had decided to leave the Forum, although I don't have any intention of over-reacting in a similar way myself.
There is nothing to be gained by 'raking over the coals' now, and in adopting a positive approach to the matter, I will try and assist anyone with any information I have or experiences I have been through, if they will simply adopt a sensible attitude to the matter.
As you say you wish to read these two reports, I will do my best to send them to you, but bear in mind my difficulties in scanning which I have already outlined above.
Perhaps when you have read them, it might help to encourage you to try some BGs for yourself, but if anyone merely wishes to pick holes in them (and I accept that there are plenty there to have a go at!) this is another waste of my time, and I simply don't wish to play such silly games with anyone.
As you know by now, I don't place much reliance on any such information, however well or badly it is stated, because the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and only listening for yourself will be of any real worth in assessing the true value of these caps from BG.
As to your comment over my objectivity, you will need to judge for yourself about this when you have listened to some BGs in your system, but if I am so wrongly influenced by anything at all, so are a heck of a lot of others who all appear to have reached the same conclusions (quite independently, it seems) as I have!
In several of my other posts I have described some of the methodologies I use when testing components, and the trouble I go to to be fair in my conclusions, but I have always also suggested that everyone should carry out their own trials for themselves.
Jan, please accept my assurance that I don't have any allegiance to BGs for any reason other than that they are the best electrolytics I have so far tried, but if I find that the Jensens which Craig has espoused are better, I will be the first to say so publicly!
Regards,
Hi Jan,
I am not taking anything personally, I can assure you, and if I had, I would hardly be offering you any help with this information, would I?
However, I have spent many hours (in total) posting on the Forum about BGs, mainly to encourage others to try them for themselves, instead of merely commenting on them without having had any personal experience of them, and possibly after reading only a very small proportion of what is in their literature.
Quite frankly, I don't personally care one bit whether anyone else uses or likes these caps, or not, but people should at least be fair and give them a chance before making so many uninformed remarks, which could (even inadvertently) sway other readers' opinions.
When I had gone to considerable trouble to post the earlier reference which was only done to overcome the supposed lack of available information (which had also been incorrectly stated in this thread), and then saw just the heading alone of your recent post " Black Gate = money blackhole?" together with some of the irrelevant comments which you made and which gave rise to your stated conclusion about these caps, I realised that I was simply wasting my time.
At that stage, I had begun to understand just why Jean-Paul had decided to leave the Forum, although I don't have any intention of over-reacting in a similar way myself.
There is nothing to be gained by 'raking over the coals' now, and in adopting a positive approach to the matter, I will try and assist anyone with any information I have or experiences I have been through, if they will simply adopt a sensible attitude to the matter.
As you say you wish to read these two reports, I will do my best to send them to you, but bear in mind my difficulties in scanning which I have already outlined above.
Perhaps when you have read them, it might help to encourage you to try some BGs for yourself, but if anyone merely wishes to pick holes in them (and I accept that there are plenty there to have a go at!) this is another waste of my time, and I simply don't wish to play such silly games with anyone.
As you know by now, I don't place much reliance on any such information, however well or badly it is stated, because the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and only listening for yourself will be of any real worth in assessing the true value of these caps from BG.
As to your comment over my objectivity, you will need to judge for yourself about this when you have listened to some BGs in your system, but if I am so wrongly influenced by anything at all, so are a heck of a lot of others who all appear to have reached the same conclusions (quite independently, it seems) as I have!
In several of my other posts I have described some of the methodologies I use when testing components, and the trouble I go to to be fair in my conclusions, but I have always also suggested that everyone should carry out their own trials for themselves.
Jan, please accept my assurance that I don't have any allegiance to BGs for any reason other than that they are the best electrolytics I have so far tried, but if I find that the Jensens which Craig has espoused are better, I will be the first to say so publicly!
Regards,
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