Re: INCEST?
fdegrove said:Hi Bob,
I get the feeling David rolls his own from the raw materials he orders from Deskadel.
Nothing against it personally.
Maybe, I'll ask next time I need to contact him, but they do use this plumbers tape I mentioned to fill out between the inner cores and the outer skin, which amounts to a couple of MMs or so in thickness.
I know Karel (Deskadel) can be quite errr....foxy when it comes to business.
He uses an A/S preamp that I know he traded for silver.
These are quite good if you don't need any gain from the pre-amp. I have one of their latest remote- switching jobs, which is very handy for immediate comparisons when making component changes. They are very revealing and clean sounding, as there is only one single Vishay bulk foil in the entire signal path, and, although I mainly use this passive for comparisons, it is still a very good neutral yardstick to use when working on home brewed active pre-amps.
Peter Qvortrup uses Deskadel wire too...no matter what he says he's half a foot taller then me so I shut up when he's around.
Yes, many years ago he lived very close to me in the Midlands, and he had an advert (this was before the Audio Note UK days) for 'special' audio bits in the local paper. I phoned him at about ten in the morning, and he was like a bear with a sore head! I reckon he'd only just got up, so I didn't get on too well with him either.
Not that I consider it to be any great indicator, in itself, but to rather counter Jonathan's findings about BGs, (which seemed to so impress Jan, although, once again Jan has not read what Jonathan had said very carefully, he merely censored the comments and used a part of it to suit his argument) Audio Note use BGs in nearly all of their gear. Certainly all of the high end stuff like Ongaku & Gaku-on do, which I would venture to say have a greater following than Connoisseur equipment, for all that this is worth. (To make it quite clear before anyone starts another argument, I am not passing *any* opinion about how either makes sound as I have not heard them for myself.)
I have a great regard for Jonathan, as I have previously said on the Forum (even though I have not found quite the same degree of shortcomings with BGs as he apparently has) but to complete the picture, I don't recall his ever saying he preferred *any* other 'named' alternative to BGs (other than his own 'specials' which, are not apparently available to the rest of us), and he also said that he could understand their popularity. (I only mentioned the above in the spirit of keeping the comments realistic and fair, for anyone else who has not followed all of these threads on BGs.)
Tip: use the polyiimide (Kapton) wires...they never oxidise and last a lifetime.
This interests me, Frank, as about 20yrs ago, folowing the TAA 'Pooge' articles, I made up a lot of internal wires and interconnect/speaker cables out of wire wrap wires, mostly Kynar, I seem to recall. They were generally better than anything else that I could get hold of then, and as I bought it 'surplus' in about 500 meters, it was not too pricey. My wife got fed-up with helping me wind it up into manageable pieces, though, and the stripping of sometimes 50 strands for speaker cables was a bit sore on the hands! Just like Teflon, it is such devillish stuff to hold on to.
In the end, I found it a little bright or forward-sounding for my tastes, and after finding better stuff, I gave a lot of it away.
Could have been the silver plating, perhaps, as this does appear to 'fizz-up' the sound a bit in my experience. I will have to try some of this polyimide wire sometime, and I am nowadays more enlightened over the benefits of using skinny cables than I was then.
Have you any experiences with ribbon cables (silver, like Allen Wright espouses) compared with conventional round cores?
The theory, partly suggested by Malcolm Hawksford, of course, seems to make sense, and by far the best speaker inductors I have used are ribbon types. These are substantially better than any of the specialist OFC, or Hyperlitz types I have tried.
You can even use your oven to reorganize the crystals.
Yes, I believe Siltech suggest this, and their cable will stand the heat OK, but I would not be so confident with my A/N ones.
Incidentally, I am not sure how hot, or for how long this should be done.
Perhaps you could share some secrets here, before my wife moans about PVC or PTFE flavoured chicken, or whatever!
Also, how does this compare with the cryogenic method, which seems to be almost the opposite in concept?
Do both methods anneal the wires in a simlar way, or what?
Regards,
P.S. I'm sorry I haven't yet figured out how to highlight my responses compared with your original text. Until checking my efforts, I assumed it happened automatically as it always has when I have used Quotes. I will look into this for the next time.
LIVE WIRES.
Hi Bob,
You seem to be well informed,Karel still uses his A/S preamp indeed although mostly the phono section and he complains about a lack of gain for his MC.
Keep in mind that the Kapton is hard to remove,you'll need a sharp kitchen knife to (gently) scrape it away at the ends.
Not personally,in theory at least these should be better then regular (round) wires.
I'll talk to Karel to see if he can lay hands on these.
The theory about this type of conductor seems to originate from RF where hollow conductors are often used to improve transmission of HF.
Siltech states this indeed.I once treated a set I have like that but as far as I'm concerned the only reault was a stiffer cable due to the silicone based insulation being shrunk even more.
Since they use multistrand wires this would then negate diodic effects between wires.
This is of course beneficial to the sound but other then that?
Both methods are based on annealing the crystals to avoid lattice boundary effects.
At the factory the wire goes straight form the die into a nitrogen bath and this seems to settle it faster then just letting it cool off.
There has been a thread on cryo treatment before so you may like to dig it up.
Cheers,
Hi Bob,
You seem to be well informed,Karel still uses his A/S preamp indeed although mostly the phono section and he complains about a lack of gain for his MC.
Keep in mind that the Kapton is hard to remove,you'll need a sharp kitchen knife to (gently) scrape it away at the ends.
Not personally,in theory at least these should be better then regular (round) wires.
I'll talk to Karel to see if he can lay hands on these.
The theory about this type of conductor seems to originate from RF where hollow conductors are often used to improve transmission of HF.
Siltech states this indeed.I once treated a set I have like that but as far as I'm concerned the only reault was a stiffer cable due to the silicone based insulation being shrunk even more.
Since they use multistrand wires this would then negate diodic effects between wires.
This is of course beneficial to the sound but other then that?
Both methods are based on annealing the crystals to avoid lattice boundary effects.
At the factory the wire goes straight form the die into a nitrogen bath and this seems to settle it faster then just letting it cool off.
There has been a thread on cryo treatment before so you may like to dig it up.
Cheers,
Where did I get them
G'day Brett,
I purchased them from Jensen in Denmark since Australia has no distributor. I dealt with Hans, nice bloke.
I am not sure how they would stack up against PP in oil but I think you would like them better than the other electros you mention.
My friend with the SE triode amp replaced some MKP Solens with the four poles for B+ and preferred the latter. He also replacd the cathode bypass Solens with Black Gate Super E config but preferred the Solens.
Brett said:
G'day Brett,
I purchased them from Jensen in Denmark since Australia has no distributor. I dealt with Hans, nice bloke.
I am not sure how they would stack up against PP in oil but I think you would like them better than the other electros you mention.
My friend with the SE triode amp replaced some MKP Solens with the four poles for B+ and preferred the latter. He also replacd the cathode bypass Solens with Black Gate Super E config but preferred the Solens.
BG test equipment?
For whoever is interested:
The "special test equipment" referred to in the BG reports does (did) exist. It is called "Component Linearity Test Set", build by Radiometer from Kopenhagen (that's Denmark). It was able to measure -160dB distortion.
Radiometer are now building medical equipment though.
So if anyone still has a second hand one...?
Jan Didden
For whoever is interested:
The "special test equipment" referred to in the BG reports does (did) exist. It is called "Component Linearity Test Set", build by Radiometer from Kopenhagen (that's Denmark). It was able to measure -160dB distortion.
Radiometer are now building medical equipment though.
So if anyone still has a second hand one...?
Jan Didden
Jensen caps
Hi people,
I'm new here, but thought I would throw out my opinion on Jensen caps.
I have a Stan Warren modded Philips SACD 1000, and I recently put in two Jensen 10,000 uf caps. They went on the +/-12 volt PS, between the regulators and the trannie, and replaced a four (two for each rail) of Elna 1,000 uf caps. I could not mount the Jensens directly to the board, so I also put in a couple of BG's, 330 uf standards. The Jensens were mounted off the board, using a couple inches of silver plated copper wire.
After the mod, the player had a blacker background, things seemed clearer and cleaner, and it probably had a little more dynamics too. The 12 volts is used to drive the discrete output stage in the 1000.
I bought these caps from a friend of Stan Warrens for $25 each, and they were well worth it, for the improvement I heard. BG's of this size would cost over $100, so I would probably never even try those, I am too cheap to spend that much on a couple of caps. I know Stan thinks highly of Jensen electro's, and has used them with success in other projects.
Only problem with the Jensen's is finding them, no US distributor for the electro's, only the paper in oil stuff. Reference Audio is thinking about carrying them, but does not have them now. Jensen's website is here http://www.jensencapacitors.com
The other issue is the voltage must pass through the cap, the cap has two input pins and two output pins. On the ground side, it does not matter, for for the voltage side, you need to cut the trace, and I fed the transformer side to the in of the cap, and the regulator side to the out.
Randy
Hi people,
I'm new here, but thought I would throw out my opinion on Jensen caps.
I have a Stan Warren modded Philips SACD 1000, and I recently put in two Jensen 10,000 uf caps. They went on the +/-12 volt PS, between the regulators and the trannie, and replaced a four (two for each rail) of Elna 1,000 uf caps. I could not mount the Jensens directly to the board, so I also put in a couple of BG's, 330 uf standards. The Jensens were mounted off the board, using a couple inches of silver plated copper wire.
After the mod, the player had a blacker background, things seemed clearer and cleaner, and it probably had a little more dynamics too. The 12 volts is used to drive the discrete output stage in the 1000.
I bought these caps from a friend of Stan Warrens for $25 each, and they were well worth it, for the improvement I heard. BG's of this size would cost over $100, so I would probably never even try those, I am too cheap to spend that much on a couple of caps. I know Stan thinks highly of Jensen electro's, and has used them with success in other projects.
Only problem with the Jensen's is finding them, no US distributor for the electro's, only the paper in oil stuff. Reference Audio is thinking about carrying them, but does not have them now. Jensen's website is here http://www.jensencapacitors.com
The other issue is the voltage must pass through the cap, the cap has two input pins and two output pins. On the ground side, it does not matter, for for the voltage side, you need to cut the trace, and I fed the transformer side to the in of the cap, and the regulator side to the out.
Randy
jcarr said:
I got to this post quite accidentally by using other link, but after experimenting a bit with BG in PS of GC I can say that the above comments are basically in line with what I found out when using BG N type in PS filtering. However standard grade of BG is totally different with very pronounced highs and overall more agressive sound. Type N is very laid back (maybe I could say more refined) but I'm still not sure which I would really prefer. This is only with regard to PS in GC, where 1000u/50V caps are used and I can't say how they behave in other setups. Also the sound of BG type N improves after burning in period, and even when using well broken in caps, after powering the unit the sound isn't good right from the beginning (mostly for type N caps) and improves substantially after 24 hours.
If anyone's interested, the DNM 4-terminal caps mentioned are manufactured by BHC.
The idea behind them is sound, but I've not used them personally.
The data sheet is here http://www.bhc.co.uk/pdf/ALN20S.pdf
The idea behind them is sound, but I've not used them personally.
The data sheet is here http://www.bhc.co.uk/pdf/ALN20S.pdf
Jan Didden wrote> The "special test equipment" referred to in the BG reports does (did) exist. It is called "Component Linearity Test Set", build by Radiometer from Kopenhagen (that's Denmark). It was able to measure -160dB distortion.
Radiometer are now building medical equipment though.
So if anyone still has a second hand one...?
Radiometer claimed a 146 dB dynamic range for their meter but Black Gate claimed -176 dB, 30 dB better than the instrument claimed. The Radiometer successor is here http://www.danbridge.com/staticpart/clt10datasheet.htm
with 150...160 dB range
Radiometer are now building medical equipment though.
So if anyone still has a second hand one...?
Radiometer claimed a 146 dB dynamic range for their meter but Black Gate claimed -176 dB, 30 dB better than the instrument claimed. The Radiometer successor is here http://www.danbridge.com/staticpart/clt10datasheet.htm
with 150...160 dB range
Attachments
I think you need to read the thread before taking the title out of context. You'll find no reference to religion itself only an address to people's strong conviction toward a specific type of capacitor, hence the "religion" reference. Remember, there are many members of this forum with english as a second language and you can expect some posts to be "gramatically unusual".
Component Linearity
I have a Radiometer CLT1 (and access to a second). I have not tried it on any Blackgates (don't have any) but I will if I can borrow some. The instrument is huge ((30" high rack sized) and dominates the shop when I have it out. I got it to look at connections and cable dielectrics. And I will soon.
It really has a distortion floor of -168 dB or better depending on range and setup. And without averaging.
I can post a link to Radiometer's patent later. It has some good info on the technology.
I also have precision bridges, noise analyzers etc. but no time to do component research with them now. However if someone local to me is interested in fact (not speculation) and has some time there is a lot to be learned.
-Demian
I have a Radiometer CLT1 (and access to a second). I have not tried it on any Blackgates (don't have any) but I will if I can borrow some. The instrument is huge ((30" high rack sized) and dominates the shop when I have it out. I got it to look at connections and cable dielectrics. And I will soon.
It really has a distortion floor of -168 dB or better depending on range and setup. And without averaging.
I can post a link to Radiometer's patent later. It has some good info on the technology.
I also have precision bridges, noise analyzers etc. but no time to do component research with them now. However if someone local to me is interested in fact (not speculation) and has some time there is a lot to be learned.
-Demian
thylantyr said:
There is at least one award-winning preamp that is designed
without capacitors since the designer thought that next to
the inductor, the capacitor is the weirdest component ever
invented. I wonder if anybody has told him about all the
nonlinearities in the cheap op amps he used?
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