Hi,
I have only just come across this post, but have been interested to read the various different opinions which have been expressed.
If I may make some comments of my own, I would suggest that for anyone who is seriously interested in using the very best 'sounding' (i.e. the least damaging to the original signal) electrolytic caps available, they obtain some of these obscenely- priced components, and 'listen' to them for themselves.
If they do, they will no doubt reach the same conclusion as Jean-Paul and Peter Daniel (to name but two members, who have done this test), that Black Gates (especially the non-polarised caps) are the finest electrolytics currently available.
Some of my own experiences have been stated in the other current threads on BGs on the Forum, so there is no point in reiterating them here, and it is of considerable interest to me that everyone in these threads who says that he has *actually tried these caps*, has had positive experiences with them.
Not one single person in all three threads appears to have said that they have 'listened' to BGs and found that they didn't like them, nor that Rifas, Cerafines, Panasonics, Oscons, or whatever, 'sound' better!
I absolutely detest the price and the ridiculous burning in period, but as I have said, elsewhere, I would hate it even more if BGs were not around!
These are (just some of!) the inconveniences one has to endure if the best sound is sought after.
Dhaen asked about seeing the BG technical details, and over 120 BG 'white papers' (some rather badly translated from Japanese, but still quite readable for anyone who will take the necessary trouble) appear under the heading "resources", on the site www.partsconnexion.com who are suppliers of BGs.
For anyone to imply that there is insufficient information about these caps on the Internet, it may be that due to negatively pre-judging the issue, they have not made much effort to find or read them.
Some of these notes are more by way of advice as to where and how each 'series' of BGs could be best used, and some are more technical and relate to measurements and comparisons etc.
In my experience, most other manufacturers don't provide even one tenth of this information about their products!
Of course, whether you believe *all* of what is said is another matter (after all, Jelmax are trying to promote them), but I would strongly suggest that it would be sensible to read them properly before reaching any further conclusions.
I am generally not much up for giving any *opinions* of my own, and I notice that there are already a multitude of uninformed armchair experts around who are happy to make up for my reticence in this respect.
But, although my experiences are limited almost exclusively to S/S audio gear (I have only ever built one valve amp), I have been listening intently to amplifiers etc., and in particular the 'sound' of individual components (both in isolation, and in finished gear) for some 35 years now.
During that time, I have reached some very definite conclusions about the sonic attributes of many components, and I regret to say that I simply don't agree with the oft expressed " capacitor distortion is small compared with the other forms....etc", provided, of course, the equipment is otherwise well-designed.
Personally, I will avoid all electrolytic caps like the plague, because even the best are not good enough and the average ones in use are just lousy, and the only ones I will willingly consider now will be non-polar BGs.
Perhaps it is as well that I go for quality rather than quantity, in my constructional projects, as otherwise I would be bankrupt by now!!
Regards,
I have only just come across this post, but have been interested to read the various different opinions which have been expressed.
If I may make some comments of my own, I would suggest that for anyone who is seriously interested in using the very best 'sounding' (i.e. the least damaging to the original signal) electrolytic caps available, they obtain some of these obscenely- priced components, and 'listen' to them for themselves.
If they do, they will no doubt reach the same conclusion as Jean-Paul and Peter Daniel (to name but two members, who have done this test), that Black Gates (especially the non-polarised caps) are the finest electrolytics currently available.
Some of my own experiences have been stated in the other current threads on BGs on the Forum, so there is no point in reiterating them here, and it is of considerable interest to me that everyone in these threads who says that he has *actually tried these caps*, has had positive experiences with them.
Not one single person in all three threads appears to have said that they have 'listened' to BGs and found that they didn't like them, nor that Rifas, Cerafines, Panasonics, Oscons, or whatever, 'sound' better!
I absolutely detest the price and the ridiculous burning in period, but as I have said, elsewhere, I would hate it even more if BGs were not around!
These are (just some of!) the inconveniences one has to endure if the best sound is sought after.
Dhaen asked about seeing the BG technical details, and over 120 BG 'white papers' (some rather badly translated from Japanese, but still quite readable for anyone who will take the necessary trouble) appear under the heading "resources", on the site www.partsconnexion.com who are suppliers of BGs.
For anyone to imply that there is insufficient information about these caps on the Internet, it may be that due to negatively pre-judging the issue, they have not made much effort to find or read them.
Some of these notes are more by way of advice as to where and how each 'series' of BGs could be best used, and some are more technical and relate to measurements and comparisons etc.
In my experience, most other manufacturers don't provide even one tenth of this information about their products!
Of course, whether you believe *all* of what is said is another matter (after all, Jelmax are trying to promote them), but I would strongly suggest that it would be sensible to read them properly before reaching any further conclusions.
I am generally not much up for giving any *opinions* of my own, and I notice that there are already a multitude of uninformed armchair experts around who are happy to make up for my reticence in this respect.
But, although my experiences are limited almost exclusively to S/S audio gear (I have only ever built one valve amp), I have been listening intently to amplifiers etc., and in particular the 'sound' of individual components (both in isolation, and in finished gear) for some 35 years now.
During that time, I have reached some very definite conclusions about the sonic attributes of many components, and I regret to say that I simply don't agree with the oft expressed " capacitor distortion is small compared with the other forms....etc", provided, of course, the equipment is otherwise well-designed.
Personally, I will avoid all electrolytic caps like the plague, because even the best are not good enough and the average ones in use are just lousy, and the only ones I will willingly consider now will be non-polar BGs.
Perhaps it is as well that I go for quality rather than quantity, in my constructional projects, as otherwise I would be bankrupt by now!!
Regards,
Quote by Bobken
Personally, I will avoid all electrolytic caps like the plague, because even the best are not good enough and the average ones in use are just lousy, and the only ones I will willingly consider now will be non-polar BGs.
I agree with you and other supporters.
If BG get enough volume sales then maybe the price could reduce and the question of choice between them and a cheaper electrolytic would be a non-issue.
Personally, I will avoid all electrolytic caps like the plague, because even the best are not good enough and the average ones in use are just lousy, and the only ones I will willingly consider now will be non-polar BGs.
I agree with you and other supporters.
If BG get enough volume sales then maybe the price could reduce and the question of choice between them and a cheaper electrolytic would be a non-issue.
I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy. Granted, most components have colorations, but with many standard industrial components, the colorations are simple enough to be put to good use somehow or at least dealt with in an inoffensive manner. With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely.
Therefore, in general, I much prefer to ask non-audiophile parts manufacturers to make parts to my specifications than use audiophile parts.
But I fully understand that these choices have a lot to do with personal preference, and finding colorations that are complementary to the sounds of your circuits. In the end, you must listen for yourself and make up your own mind.
regards, jonathan carr
Therefore, in general, I much prefer to ask non-audiophile parts manufacturers to make parts to my specifications than use audiophile parts.
But I fully understand that these choices have a lot to do with personal preference, and finding colorations that are complementary to the sounds of your circuits. In the end, you must listen for yourself and make up your own mind.
regards, jonathan carr
This has been an interesting thread that I've started. The "humbug?" in the title is hanging around the corner all the time. My strongest reaction was when I read some facts. -174 dB distortion and claiming that is true. This is pure humbug unless they show the equipment. Some other scientific facts seems to be taken from thin air. I have some problems when strict facts are obviously false. I don't doubt that BG can be good but proven facts seems to be hard to get.
You are right, it is humbug. I strongly advise you to never use them. It is not your religion. I'm curious what your reaction would be if one wrote this about the gear you produce.
Per-Anders audio = Religion = Humbug ?
You see what I mean ?
What needs to be proven ? You want a scientific explanation of good sound or what ?. Or do you want to know ESR facts of BG ? WHAT do you want ?
You should talk once with a tubeguy that uses PIO caps. They are not my cup of tea but listen to them...
You know, I'm against false marketing. In Europe and in Sweden particular we have a thing called "producer responsibility". You must state facts arounds your product which are "facts" otherwise you must tell the costumer that it's NOT facts. Compare with "health food".
Seriously, do you believe in -174 dB distortion? Don't think so. (= false)
BG can say whatever they want as long as they not claim the scientific thing. Some statements are a little but obscure and/or fantastic, don't you think?
Seriously, do you believe in -174 dB distortion? Don't think so. (= false)
BG can say whatever they want as long as they not claim the scientific thing. Some statements are a little but obscure and/or fantastic, don't you think?
Speaking in the dark!
Hi peranders,
This comment is, with respect, typical of those posters who I have criticised elsewhere.
If you will kindly take the trouble to look at the reference I related earlier on, and in particular to pages 50A & 50B, you will see that the test equipment *is* described, and there is even a (rather poor) picture of it!
Like you, I also "have problems", but it is with posters who state or imply that certain information is unavailable when I have already gone to the trouble to post a source for it on the Forum, and those 'commentators' cannot be bothered to read it.
From memory, I believe there are also some more details in those white papers about the Danish CLT-1 test set up, but I will not waste the time in looking them up for someone who is too lazy to do that for himself!
Certainly I have seen some better details of this test gear somewhere, and a better photograph (for what it is worth).
As I also said before, whether one can believe *all* of Jelmax's claims or not is another matter (they are trying to promote sales-after all!) but for pity's sake, stop posting such inaccurate rubbish until you have actually read the details, and perhaps actually listened to a BG cap!
Until you have done either (or both) of these things, any further ( inaccurate and totally misleading) input along these same lines to this thread is valueless, whoever is making the comments and whoever started it!
Regards,
peranders said:
Hi peranders,
This comment is, with respect, typical of those posters who I have criticised elsewhere.
If you will kindly take the trouble to look at the reference I related earlier on, and in particular to pages 50A & 50B, you will see that the test equipment *is* described, and there is even a (rather poor) picture of it!
Like you, I also "have problems", but it is with posters who state or imply that certain information is unavailable when I have already gone to the trouble to post a source for it on the Forum, and those 'commentators' cannot be bothered to read it.
From memory, I believe there are also some more details in those white papers about the Danish CLT-1 test set up, but I will not waste the time in looking them up for someone who is too lazy to do that for himself!
Certainly I have seen some better details of this test gear somewhere, and a better photograph (for what it is worth).
As I also said before, whether one can believe *all* of Jelmax's claims or not is another matter (they are trying to promote sales-after all!) but for pity's sake, stop posting such inaccurate rubbish until you have actually read the details, and perhaps actually listened to a BG cap!
Until you have done either (or both) of these things, any further ( inaccurate and totally misleading) input along these same lines to this thread is valueless, whoever is making the comments and whoever started it!
Regards,
BG Sonics ? ......
"I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.................With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely."
Jonathan, can you describe the sort of BG colouration that you are speaking of ? - I have no experience of them (too tight fisted
), so I am keen to hear a manufacturer production sonics and economics view of them.
I understand that different manufacturers and models of electrolytics sound different, some nasty and some reasonably acceptable.
The essentially distortionless performance of BG claimed by the makers ought to approach that of a piece of wire one should think, and not add colourations that you allude to.
I expect that adding finely divided carbon into the elctrolyte mix will significantly alter and 'naturalise' through coupled sound, and attenuate natural sounds when used in signal shunting applications.
What do you mean by "strong and complex".
Eric.
Is it possible to measure distortions as low as -174 dB ?, and if so, how so ?.
"I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.................With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely."
Jonathan, can you describe the sort of BG colouration that you are speaking of ? - I have no experience of them (too tight fisted
), so I am keen to hear a manufacturer production sonics and economics view of them.I understand that different manufacturers and models of electrolytics sound different, some nasty and some reasonably acceptable.
The essentially distortionless performance of BG claimed by the makers ought to approach that of a piece of wire one should think, and not add colourations that you allude to.
I expect that adding finely divided carbon into the elctrolyte mix will significantly alter and 'naturalise' through coupled sound, and attenuate natural sounds when used in signal shunting applications.
What do you mean by "strong and complex".
Eric.
Is it possible to measure distortions as low as -174 dB ?, and if so, how so ?.
Re: BG Sonics ? ......
Hi Eric,
Also see my posts on this, and in particular the reference to the test gear supposedly used.
I am not adding any credance to the methodology of the Jelmax tests, incidentally, nor to its apparent results.
I am simply saying that it is there for everyone to read, and I, for one, very much like the 'sonic' attributes of the non-polar (especially) BGs!
Regards,
Eric,mrfeedback said:"I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.................With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely."
Jonathan, can you describe the sort of BG colouration that you are speaking of ? - I have no experience of them (too tight fisted
I understand that different manufacturers and models of electrolytics sound different, some nasty and some reasonably acceptable.
The essentially distortionless performance of BG claimed by the makers ought to approach that of a piece of wire one should think, and not add colourations that you allude to.
I expect that adding finely divided carbon into the elctrolyte mix will significantly alter and 'naturalise' through coupled sound, and attenuate natural sounds when used in signal shunting applications.
What do you mean by "strong and complex".
Eric.
Is it possible to measure distortions as low as -174 dB ?, and if so, how so ?.
Hi Eric,
Also see my posts on this, and in particular the reference to the test gear supposedly used.
I am not adding any credance to the methodology of the Jelmax tests, incidentally, nor to its apparent results.
I am simply saying that it is there for everyone to read, and I, for one, very much like the 'sonic' attributes of the non-polar (especially) BGs!
Regards,
My experience with BG-NX Hi Q is that their sonics are better than MKP and the like. Only the ridiculous long idling period is tedious.
They sound neutral and add nothing negative to the sound is the best I can say about them. They have the very negative aspect of the high price. I have only one value in stock for digital ( 6,3 V ) electronics but I couldn't resist trying them as coupling cap with low DC levels and low AC levels.They had proven their value in DAC's already I want to add. In digital they were better by a vast margin than OSCON and Panasonic HFQ.
It opened my eyes and I still am hoping there will be a salespoint in the Netherlands that will sell them for "normal" prices.
Unfortunately these components are very interesting for audioshops. They don't take volume and give great revenue.
And...once you have tried them you are hooked. Despite their price you will buy them again because you simply know there is nothing really better.
They sound neutral and add nothing negative to the sound is the best I can say about them. They have the very negative aspect of the high price. I have only one value in stock for digital ( 6,3 V ) electronics but I couldn't resist trying them as coupling cap with low DC levels and low AC levels.They had proven their value in DAC's already I want to add. In digital they were better by a vast margin than OSCON and Panasonic HFQ.
It opened my eyes and I still am hoping there will be a salespoint in the Netherlands that will sell them for "normal" prices.
Unfortunately these components are very interesting for audioshops. They don't take volume and give great revenue.
And...once you have tried them you are hooked. Despite their price you will buy them again because you simply know there is nothing really better.
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