...then you have realized that your ear isn't a probate, reproducible measuring device, and you're about to get caught in the expectation bias trap.
Best regards!
Commonly hearing-difference experiences come unexpectedly and then the theses follow;-)
A simple example:
Build channel-separated power supplies, "double mono", and connect them time to time, and disconnect them from time to time. You can write about your experience here;-)
Everyone here will be able to do so. And enter the world of qualitative methods;-)
If you don't want to, you can continue to expect all amplifiers with the same thd and power and damping factors do sound identical - they're all linear anyway - and you don't have to get annoyed in an audio-diy forum;-)
A simple example:
Build channel-separated power supplies, "double mono", and connect them time to time, and disconnect them from time to time. You can write about your experience here;-)
Everyone here will be able to do so. And enter the world of qualitative methods;-)
If you don't want to, you can continue to expect all amplifiers with the same thd and power and damping factors do sound identical - they're all linear anyway - and you don't have to get annoyed in an audio-diy forum;-)
you can always help the plastic by placing an aluminum bar on top...
Very interesting that you think this might be the best that Accuphase has to offer. The sound quality was spectacular although perhaps not as driven, excited, authoritative or incisive as some class AB I've heard. Mind you the Accuphase was fed by an 15k euro worth of DAC with a power bank... Anyhow it sounded spectacularly 3d, clear, insightful, realistic and nuanced.
What would be your opinion about the F5 Turbo relative to something like this Accuphase and relative to AB designs like wolverine or mod86? Given your opinion about SE vs PP designs, it sounds to me like F5 would receive praise from you. Thanks for the interesting take BTW on all that and the merits of SE and in general simple designs.
Recently I've been gravitating to Mod86 to be honest. Definitely more than NC400, but probably more than Wolverine too, since I'd rather biamp it then with Modulus 86 and class D to the bass than try to achieve high power and impact with class AB. I'm a little worried that this would diminish the lushness and emotionality of vocals, but even a high-powered Class AB like wolverine would have plenty of flaws in other areas. I feel like I would be quite satisfied with Mod86 (and it's cheaper and much more straightforward to build) and then wait around for a deal on class D like NC400 for bi-amping if I still feel like something is lacking (I really only Crank it up for a few minutes or half an hour at a time, but listen at low volume for days on end...). I just hope the mids would be as lush and rich and engaging as high powered wolverine.
;-)
You could reduce the quiescent current on the Classe A, and a "noise" would enter the sound image, which creates orientation in the sound image: it sounds more "driven, excited", brighter, less corporeal and 'dark'. The sound locations are easier to locate.
You ask about my decision: I would build the F5 Turbo. Far cheaper and better than anything you can buy. And later I would let it drive the speakers alone. But I would also rework the speakers. Or would use other speakers.
But listening discipline is also required. Maybe I would start with multi-amping, Classe D and whatever else, and gradually reduce the amplifiers and listen to whether the sound becomes more homogeneous and closed and cleaner and clearer. But with less "Remmidemmi" (the, neuter sing., other spellings: Remmi-Demmi, Remi-Demi) is a colloquial German word meaning "confusion, mass event, noise, boisterous hustle and bustle, quarrel, back and forth fight".[1] Ramba Zamba also has a similar meaning.[2] See also Halligalli and Holterdiepolter. - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remmidemmi)
Don't get a fright at the prices: A 15 Keuro DAC with its own power bank can be built here in the forum for < 0.2 Keuro. The chic large heavy housing will be more expensive. And I would recommend to compare the power bank with the power supply of the source. It may well be that the sonic advantage lies in the use of a common power supply. Just try;-)
I mean, you have two paths ahead of you, and you will only take one: Self-build including all the many experiences, which will also never be complete - The addiction to experience, knowledge, understanding, and also to pushing the limits, which you can't buy and can't find in most threads even in this forum, but also with many setbacks and frustrations, or simply buying the supposedly best components you can get for your money;-)
We can only make the wrong decision for you, because the horizons of experience and current needs are different - at moment;-)
The simplest and most unproblematic with the undoubtedly impeccable sound characteristics are the Class D you mentioned!
You could reduce the quiescent current on the Classe A, and a "noise" would enter the sound image, which creates orientation in the sound image: it sounds more "driven, excited", brighter, less corporeal and 'dark'. The sound locations are easier to locate.
You ask about my decision: I would build the F5 Turbo. Far cheaper and better than anything you can buy. And later I would let it drive the speakers alone. But I would also rework the speakers. Or would use other speakers.
But listening discipline is also required. Maybe I would start with multi-amping, Classe D and whatever else, and gradually reduce the amplifiers and listen to whether the sound becomes more homogeneous and closed and cleaner and clearer. But with less "Remmidemmi" (the, neuter sing., other spellings: Remmi-Demmi, Remi-Demi) is a colloquial German word meaning "confusion, mass event, noise, boisterous hustle and bustle, quarrel, back and forth fight".[1] Ramba Zamba also has a similar meaning.[2] See also Halligalli and Holterdiepolter. - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remmidemmi)
Don't get a fright at the prices: A 15 Keuro DAC with its own power bank can be built here in the forum for < 0.2 Keuro. The chic large heavy housing will be more expensive. And I would recommend to compare the power bank with the power supply of the source. It may well be that the sonic advantage lies in the use of a common power supply. Just try;-)
I mean, you have two paths ahead of you, and you will only take one: Self-build including all the many experiences, which will also never be complete - The addiction to experience, knowledge, understanding, and also to pushing the limits, which you can't buy and can't find in most threads even in this forum, but also with many setbacks and frustrations, or simply buying the supposedly best components you can get for your money;-)
We can only make the wrong decision for you, because the horizons of experience and current needs are different - at moment;-)
The simplest and most unproblematic with the undoubtedly impeccable sound characteristics are the Class D you mentioned!
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But F5 Turbo is still a push pull design... Why that? Would you care to share your thoughts on how F5 Turbo would compare to Modulus 86 if you have any idea about that? The F5 Turbo was attractive for me from the get go. I just thought it was considered less HiFi or whatever. Ofc I need to hear these things, but without building or buying built, I pretty much only have other people's evaluations to go by.
How would you go about constructing the F5 Turbo to bring it's true capabilities out? Right cables of course, but, what else? Which MOSFETs are the best?
In terms of reworking the speakers do you mean crossovers? They are pretty well braced, almost no parallel walls. It's studio 580 from JBL, but the 1500Hz up is handled by JT025Ti1 tweeter as in L82 classic (I may change the Xover point). What do you think about active crossovers? I thought they sounded pretty amazing connected straight to amp. What speakers would you use if it had to be hard tweeter and lets say under 2k?
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Yes, the F5 is a PP. But I chose one of the ones you offered.
The Modulus 86 is even more complex than the Hiraga Le Monstre or Classe A. Even these are not suitable for Hi-Fi, they are more like party and noise machines, but they can do much fun;-) I just got my old Le Monstre out yesterday and connected it up. But I don't want to have to listen to music with these;-)-;
The digital amplifiers are simpler. And these will be easy to build and also play without problems and sound very good, even much better than a Modulus.
But the F5 will probably be much more expensive, because the heat sink and fat power supply unit are significant. But you can learn more from the F5 (my mind). I would build it WITHOUT the circuit board, as you see below, a Hiraga Le Monstre. It has 4 complementary stages. The F5 only has two. Mosfets: Some TO-220 types, they sound cleaner and more lively and to a point compared to larger types. Possibly one more TO-220 may have to work. The JFets are fixed in size. The power resistors, which are doubled, only single, but with the appropriate value, and in TO-220 or TO-126 housings, thin film. Single-core cables from the hardware maket are upper middle class. 0,6 or 0,8 mm2 should suffice. They are excellent for the beginning.
I would have to take a look at the loudspeakers and rework them bit by bit. Important: not too many paths and crossovers that are as simple as possible. And a not too low efficiency - roughly 90 dBm?
But first a tip regarding placement:
Loudspeakers have different imaging sizes and shapes. And most stereo signals are mono. And to ensure that the sound image does not tear apart and that the stage has both width and appropriate depth, the image sizes must also interact - so much for the arguments regarding speaker placement;-)
So: First place the speakers 0.5 meters apart (center to center) and listen. After a while, move them 0.6 meters apart. Listen. And at some point move them 0.7 m apart. This is continued until the sound image tears apart. Then the distance is too great;-) So move them together again until it fits. This arrangement is initially independent of the listening distance. The bass is usually simply adjusted via the distance to the rear wall. I also recommend angling the speakers so that the outer sides are clearly visible at the listening position. Just try;-)
If you want a large sound image, you have to move closer to the speakers instead of moving them apart. If amplifiers or source devices are exchanged, a minimal correction of the speaker placement may be necessary.
Don't be alarmed, most compact speakers have a distance of far less than one meter (My compacts are currently 0.6 meters apart)! And the largest floorstanding speakers are rarely more than 1.5 meters apart (My 2 meters tall dipole 1,5 meter apart at moment). You can take these arguments and experiences to a hi-fi store or trade fair, discuss them or just have fun;-) Because they all put the LS somewhere without any arguments. Often at the end of hi-fi shelves or in corners or because it looks nice - which all has nothing to do with audio or hi-fi;-)
The Modulus 86 is even more complex than the Hiraga Le Monstre or Classe A. Even these are not suitable for Hi-Fi, they are more like party and noise machines, but they can do much fun;-) I just got my old Le Monstre out yesterday and connected it up. But I don't want to have to listen to music with these;-)-;
The digital amplifiers are simpler. And these will be easy to build and also play without problems and sound very good, even much better than a Modulus.
But the F5 will probably be much more expensive, because the heat sink and fat power supply unit are significant. But you can learn more from the F5 (my mind). I would build it WITHOUT the circuit board, as you see below, a Hiraga Le Monstre. It has 4 complementary stages. The F5 only has two. Mosfets: Some TO-220 types, they sound cleaner and more lively and to a point compared to larger types. Possibly one more TO-220 may have to work. The JFets are fixed in size. The power resistors, which are doubled, only single, but with the appropriate value, and in TO-220 or TO-126 housings, thin film. Single-core cables from the hardware maket are upper middle class. 0,6 or 0,8 mm2 should suffice. They are excellent for the beginning.
I would have to take a look at the loudspeakers and rework them bit by bit. Important: not too many paths and crossovers that are as simple as possible. And a not too low efficiency - roughly 90 dBm?
But first a tip regarding placement:
Loudspeakers have different imaging sizes and shapes. And most stereo signals are mono. And to ensure that the sound image does not tear apart and that the stage has both width and appropriate depth, the image sizes must also interact - so much for the arguments regarding speaker placement;-)
So: First place the speakers 0.5 meters apart (center to center) and listen. After a while, move them 0.6 meters apart. Listen. And at some point move them 0.7 m apart. This is continued until the sound image tears apart. Then the distance is too great;-) So move them together again until it fits. This arrangement is initially independent of the listening distance. The bass is usually simply adjusted via the distance to the rear wall. I also recommend angling the speakers so that the outer sides are clearly visible at the listening position. Just try;-)
If you want a large sound image, you have to move closer to the speakers instead of moving them apart. If amplifiers or source devices are exchanged, a minimal correction of the speaker placement may be necessary.
Don't be alarmed, most compact speakers have a distance of far less than one meter (My compacts are currently 0.6 meters apart)! And the largest floorstanding speakers are rarely more than 1.5 meters apart (My 2 meters tall dipole 1,5 meter apart at moment). You can take these arguments and experiences to a hi-fi store or trade fair, discuss them or just have fun;-) Because they all put the LS somewhere without any arguments. Often at the end of hi-fi shelves or in corners or because it looks nice - which all has nothing to do with audio or hi-fi;-)
Attachments
![DSCN0463[1].JPG](/community/data/attachments/1246/1246554-51eac776b9818f9ebb9cb4c628f3c165.jpg?hash=UerHdrmBj5)
Thank you for the placement recommendations. I will have to wait before I can test them out, because I have no amplifier at the moment, but I'll come back to it.
F5 indeed seems simple enough to perhaps be quite buildable without the board. Do the traces really make such a big difference? Why the recommendation to build without PCB?
If I missed some great amplifiers that are possibly DIY, what do you recommend outside of my selections? How would they differ sonically or otherwise?
By digital I assume you mean something like NCore 400. Unfortunately it (something like it) didn't quite charm me except in the bass. The highs were also not smudged at all, but not necessarily something that moved me all that much either and as for the mids they were a bit boring even if not necessarily bad.
F5 indeed seems simple enough to perhaps be quite buildable without the board. Do the traces really make such a big difference? Why the recommendation to build without PCB?
If I missed some great amplifiers that are possibly DIY, what do you recommend outside of my selections? How would they differ sonically or otherwise?
By digital I assume you mean something like NCore 400. Unfortunately it (something like it) didn't quite charm me except in the bass. The highs were also not smudged at all, but not necessarily something that moved me all that much either and as for the mids they were a bit boring even if not necessarily bad.
Didn't quite understand this sentence.
Interesting! I'll have to look it up what would be possible replacements. But it seems like people are already using high current ones for the configuration where they are in parallel. When you say thin film I assume you mean resistors, but do you mean every single resistor?
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In addition to your sound experience with the digital amps, unsuitable speakers and source devices and other factors may also come into consideration. I'm sure I could help these little things to sound very good: first of all, avoid plug contacts and screw contacts. Avoid double mono power supplies.
I have had large digital amplifiers on the table. Their PCB layout was so bad, e.g. the ground was designed as a surface, one side of the PCB, and then feedthroughs everywhere: It just sounded cloudy and unstable. But this is already the case with small digital devices, if DAC or amp. The developers didn't understand current and signal and definition. Small devices can be reworked, but large ones are not worth the effort.
In a setup without a circuit board, you are almost forced to use a current-conscious setup. You can't do much wrong, then the smaller number of soldered connections (nobody would connect his devices with solder), shorter ways, then much less corners and edges and loops, then less material that resonates, modulates the current with material resonances - we can tune devices by means of material resonances;-) Boards have nothing to do in audio. A tip: if amplifiers need boards because they are too complex, then they are too complex: NO chance for a single clean tone;-) (Except smd and digital and high power)
TO-220 are not as stable as larger e.g. TO-247 (e.g. above mentioned IRFP 240, 9240), it takes one or two more TO-220.
Resistors, as example: https://www.conrad.de/de/o/leistungswiderstaende-0241366.html?tfo_ATT_NUM_ELECTRICAL_RATING=20 W
I really do not want to recommend an amplifier. For example, I heard some amplifiers with a friend and we both had identical sound assessments. However, he preferred the grayer, flatter, more distorted, more subdued sound.
I strongly advise you to make all the experiences yourself. And I honestly advise you to start somewhere else. There is a great device: PA-940, a "cheap" PA amplifier;-) But it has a lot going for it. A battle of materials, lots of steam, very simple construction. Even without a reworking, it beats everything that has rank and name in the analog PP power amplifier sector, regardless of price. And if you modify it bit by bit, you learn a lot and the sound gets better and better. The thing costs around 100 euros second-hand and is available under various labels. First of all, replace C7 with a 10 or 100 uF cap. And then remove the current limiter (some parts, I would advise;-) Dream amp! The most would cry, if they would know,-)
I have had large digital amplifiers on the table. Their PCB layout was so bad, e.g. the ground was designed as a surface, one side of the PCB, and then feedthroughs everywhere: It just sounded cloudy and unstable. But this is already the case with small digital devices, if DAC or amp. The developers didn't understand current and signal and definition. Small devices can be reworked, but large ones are not worth the effort.
In a setup without a circuit board, you are almost forced to use a current-conscious setup. You can't do much wrong, then the smaller number of soldered connections (nobody would connect his devices with solder), shorter ways, then much less corners and edges and loops, then less material that resonates, modulates the current with material resonances - we can tune devices by means of material resonances;-) Boards have nothing to do in audio. A tip: if amplifiers need boards because they are too complex, then they are too complex: NO chance for a single clean tone;-) (Except smd and digital and high power)
TO-220 are not as stable as larger e.g. TO-247 (e.g. above mentioned IRFP 240, 9240), it takes one or two more TO-220.
Resistors, as example: https://www.conrad.de/de/o/leistungswiderstaende-0241366.html?tfo_ATT_NUM_ELECTRICAL_RATING=20 W
I really do not want to recommend an amplifier. For example, I heard some amplifiers with a friend and we both had identical sound assessments. However, he preferred the grayer, flatter, more distorted, more subdued sound.
I strongly advise you to make all the experiences yourself. And I honestly advise you to start somewhere else. There is a great device: PA-940, a "cheap" PA amplifier;-) But it has a lot going for it. A battle of materials, lots of steam, very simple construction. Even without a reworking, it beats everything that has rank and name in the analog PP power amplifier sector, regardless of price. And if you modify it bit by bit, you learn a lot and the sound gets better and better. The thing costs around 100 euros second-hand and is available under various labels. First of all, replace C7 with a 10 or 100 uF cap. And then remove the current limiter (some parts, I would advise;-) Dream amp! The most would cry, if they would know,-)
It may very well be that your TO-220 mosfets give better sound than lateral types in the simplest of circuits, I don't discard that possibility.
But I am personally looking for circuits that are a bit more elaborated, more refined, with more feedback generally. The lateral mosfets shine in these circuits, allowing more feedback without losing stability.
Take it from Erno Borbely, not me:
Didden: These were the Hitachi lateral MOSFET
Borbely: Yes, for me these sound the best of all MOSFET types. At low bias they sound kind of soft, and come very close to tubes. They have relatively low Gm but the negative tempco is a plus. Vertical types such as the Toshibas have higher Gm but a positive tempco, which makes it more difficult to stabilize the quiescent conditions. They can sound quite good as well, especially in the bass department, although for full-range I would always prefer the Hitachis.
https://audioxpress.com/assets/upload/files/The Borbely AnnalsAX012_019.pdf
Something like that would work? https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anze...lifier-pa-940-verstaerker/2589584258-172-4578
You definitely have me intrigued! If this is what you're referring to, I'm buying it on Monday or tomorrow, it cost me nothing and I don't have an amp to begin with. I'll replace anything worth replacing if I'm capable of hearing the potential as you say there is!
Very well preserved here 400W https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/better-pa-940-amplifier-vollverstaerker/2740192463-172-8130
There's also 480 and 600W it appears. Should I go for a fatter power supply or they're all the same?
There's also 480 and 600W it appears. Should I go for a fatter power supply or they're all the same?
;-)
Just buy and look;-) After the parcel carrier will have somehow dragged the thing up the stairs;-) Power supply is inside;-)) They all are the same.
Some would have measured 2 x 250 watts, but I think that's nonsense. And it's not necessary: the audible "effect" of "power" comes from cleanness. It is nonsense to build a 200 watt power amplifier, and with low internal resistance, with the aim of "pushing" a clean bass tone into the speakers. It sounds bad because the effort required for looking measurable 200 watts cannot produce a single clean tone. So unclean sound is forced into the speakers only;-) But even the Le Monstre with its "8 watts" cannot produce a clean sound. This is due to the two separately amplified half-waves, which are also amplified by... well, all this has already been written somewhere above;-)
Just buy and look;-) After the parcel carrier will have somehow dragged the thing up the stairs;-) Power supply is inside;-)) They all are the same.
Some would have measured 2 x 250 watts, but I think that's nonsense. And it's not necessary: the audible "effect" of "power" comes from cleanness. It is nonsense to build a 200 watt power amplifier, and with low internal resistance, with the aim of "pushing" a clean bass tone into the speakers. It sounds bad because the effort required for looking measurable 200 watts cannot produce a single clean tone. So unclean sound is forced into the speakers only;-) But even the Le Monstre with its "8 watts" cannot produce a clean sound. This is due to the two separately amplified half-waves, which are also amplified by... well, all this has already been written somewhere above;-)
I have bought a Hitachi Power amp. SJ50, SK135 inside. A terrible sound, but that's due to the complexity. I didn't want to do that to anyone: I threw everything out and put in a JLH.
I have these and other Hitachi MosFets lying around. Not suitable for audio. It's a myth because nobody knows how to compare components with each other. And what causes their sound.
A myth like Krell or Levinson or something else. Even railroad signal switchgears or elevators sound terrible with it;-)-;
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