Hahaha, thanks Scott... To sum it up:
Nothing crazy. Goals were a system for music (of a lot of variety, but a lot of rock and pop) and HT, 60/40% or so, with realistic mids/highs and lots of punch down low, plus some real thunder down under 40 hz with a subwoofer (which has not been discussed, I was looking at lilmike's f20 and lilwrecker over on the AVS forum).
So the current favorite for mains is a bi-amped FAST combo consisting of a full range for ~>150 hz and a large woofer for ~<150 hz. Electronic crossover at line level so I can fiddle with the xo point and level adjustments.
Big helper woofer for hopefully big punch, I was looking at inexpensive 18"s. Sealed box so it's punchy rather than boomy (though at the expense of efficiency).
Full range... A10.3s in Dave's MarKen for detail; or something larger like the TB W8-2145, 12lta, 12-250tc, etc in an enclosure of some kind, aperiodic seemed to be the popular vote. All for a ~$500 or so budget (which will probably be stretched slightly for cabinet materials anyway).
Nothing crazy. Goals were a system for music (of a lot of variety, but a lot of rock and pop) and HT, 60/40% or so, with realistic mids/highs and lots of punch down low, plus some real thunder down under 40 hz with a subwoofer (which has not been discussed, I was looking at lilmike's f20 and lilwrecker over on the AVS forum).
So the current favorite for mains is a bi-amped FAST combo consisting of a full range for ~>150 hz and a large woofer for ~<150 hz. Electronic crossover at line level so I can fiddle with the xo point and level adjustments.
Big helper woofer for hopefully big punch, I was looking at inexpensive 18"s. Sealed box so it's punchy rather than boomy (though at the expense of efficiency).
Full range... A10.3s in Dave's MarKen for detail; or something larger like the TB W8-2145, 12lta, 12-250tc, etc in an enclosure of some kind, aperiodic seemed to be the popular vote. All for a ~$500 or so budget (which will probably be stretched slightly for cabinet materials anyway).
scott- unfortunately I don't have the time or alimentary constitution to consume and digest all of the offerings at the smorgasbord that is DIY Audio. FWIW, having taken a quick scan of that thread, it reminds me of a couple of "our" experimental builds, that yielded either "meh" results for me, or in the case of ad hoc DIY systems at fest events, systems from which I couldn't run away FAST enough.
since you asked:
Just following the 14th of Dave's annually hosted DIY events is a good opportunity for personal reflection on my personal impressions.
- I've heard several incarnations of Dave's EmKen for the 12LTA, is just isn't for me. Even with the very large enclosure his modelling suggested, and which was a bitch to build, deliver, and modify onsite, the bottom end wasn't there as expected, and to me it sounded even more colored through the mid to upper midrange than Eminence's published curve (below). I'm just not a fan- even of the modified / tweaked and phase plugged version. To each his own - some folks quite like this driver.
- At this past week's event a JBL small stage monitor using 12"(?) mid-bass woofer in grossly undersized and badly tuned cabinet was used as part of tri-amped system through which several combinations of multi-ways and tweeters were McGyvered together. None of them ever coalesced seamlessly, and as they were played on an outdoor driveway, they were almost consistently overdriven to the point of serious excursion distortion. That of course in itself is not a fault of the system, but certainly of the application.
- In almost the exact same physical location at prior events, large Open Baffle systems using an early version of Eminence based Silver Iris coaxial driver sounded only marginally more tolerable to me than the 12LTA
- In Dave's main inside listening room that is substantially larger than either of my own, the numerous systems over the years that I've most enjoyed were based on complements of smaller drivers . They were often FASTs consisting of "wide-band" units such as Fostex , Mark Audio and probably the occasional TangBand, with the assistance of woofers crossed over anywhere from 200 -350(ish?). And on the rear outdoor deck, with far more subdued SPLs, quite frequently the most relaxing listening and conversations were to be had with small 2-ways or single driver systems.
- Both in my own home, and at all the possible locations at Dave's, I've heard several OB systems in addition to the Silver Iris, and none ever worked for me. Room placement / acoustics plays a big factor with those types, or large planar dipole or multi-driver / hybrid bipole systems. For at least the last 30yrs, my domestic environments have required compromises in enclosure size / placement that affect my choices, and which others would find unacceptable - I'm fine with that.
The system at home to which I spend most of my active listening is now in fact a multi-channel HT rig, which has been described at length elsewhere. Taking all that into account, I can certainly understand that my observations, impressions and advice will be weighted by the expectations and intended goals of the reader.
Just following the 14th of Dave's annually hosted DIY events is a good opportunity for personal reflection on my personal impressions.
- I've heard several incarnations of Dave's EmKen for the 12LTA, is just isn't for me. Even with the very large enclosure his modelling suggested, and which was a bitch to build, deliver, and modify onsite, the bottom end wasn't there as expected, and to me it sounded even more colored through the mid to upper midrange than Eminence's published curve (below). I'm just not a fan- even of the modified / tweaked and phase plugged version. To each his own - some folks quite like this driver.
- At this past week's event a JBL small stage monitor using 12"(?) mid-bass woofer in grossly undersized and badly tuned cabinet was used as part of tri-amped system through which several combinations of multi-ways and tweeters were McGyvered together. None of them ever coalesced seamlessly, and as they were played on an outdoor driveway, they were almost consistently overdriven to the point of serious excursion distortion. That of course in itself is not a fault of the system, but certainly of the application.
- In almost the exact same physical location at prior events, large Open Baffle systems using an early version of Eminence based Silver Iris coaxial driver sounded only marginally more tolerable to me than the 12LTA
- In Dave's main inside listening room that is substantially larger than either of my own, the numerous systems over the years that I've most enjoyed were based on complements of smaller drivers . They were often FASTs consisting of "wide-band" units such as Fostex , Mark Audio and probably the occasional TangBand, with the assistance of woofers crossed over anywhere from 200 -350(ish?). And on the rear outdoor deck, with far more subdued SPLs, quite frequently the most relaxing listening and conversations were to be had with small 2-ways or single driver systems.
- Both in my own home, and at all the possible locations at Dave's, I've heard several OB systems in addition to the Silver Iris, and none ever worked for me. Room placement / acoustics plays a big factor with those types, or large planar dipole or multi-driver / hybrid bipole systems. For at least the last 30yrs, my domestic environments have required compromises in enclosure size / placement that affect my choices, and which others would find unacceptable - I'm fine with that.
The system at home to which I spend most of my active listening is now in fact a multi-channel HT rig, which has been described at length elsewhere. Taking all that into account, I can certainly understand that my observations, impressions and advice will be weighted by the expectations and intended goals of the reader.
Thank you, appreciate the honest reviews.
I'm not sure my ears would be sensitive enough to find the 12lta offensive.. I might even like it.
Jesse
I'm not sure my ears would be sensitive enough to find the 12lta offensive.. I might even like it.
I had assumed this to be a pun, that you disliked the "FAST" systems you heard.
But it seemed from your last post that these were in fact the systems you enjoyed the most?
Jesse
No, he was referring to sytems of all types he did not care for. So far we have been hitting close to 100% with FASTs we have built, Chris currently has A7 MOAP/A12pWeN MTM ML-TL FASTs as his main speakers.
dave
Got things set up today after finally getting an active XO, a DBX 234, and there's a problem...
The two separate AV receivers seem to be doing their thing just fine, but the dbx 234 does not seem to be working correctly. I'm using TRS mono jacks to RCA adapters on the ins/outs, the rear buttons are all configured correctly (for 2 way stereo), and I started out with all the gain knobs at zero. The right high freq channel seems to work as expected. The left and right low freq channels play, but seem to have an awful lot of HF sound in them still, considering the 24 db/oct xo. The low freq channels sound the same, regardless of where the xo point is set, and the individual gain knobs also have no effect (though the input gain knob does work). The left high freq channel is dead.
Any way I could have messed something up? Tried swapping cables, they are good. Tried swapping amps, all channels work. So it is narrowed down to the dbx... I thought these things were bulletproof for PA work on the road?
The Dbx was a used special off ebay.. beginning the return or claims process now :-\
Jesse
The two separate AV receivers seem to be doing their thing just fine, but the dbx 234 does not seem to be working correctly. I'm using TRS mono jacks to RCA adapters on the ins/outs, the rear buttons are all configured correctly (for 2 way stereo), and I started out with all the gain knobs at zero. The right high freq channel seems to work as expected. The left and right low freq channels play, but seem to have an awful lot of HF sound in them still, considering the 24 db/oct xo. The low freq channels sound the same, regardless of where the xo point is set, and the individual gain knobs also have no effect (though the input gain knob does work). The left high freq channel is dead.
Any way I could have messed something up? Tried swapping cables, they are good. Tried swapping amps, all channels work. So it is narrowed down to the dbx... I thought these things were bulletproof for PA work on the road?
The Dbx was a used special off ebay.. beginning the return or claims process now :-\
Jesse
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Looked more into some of the newer "biamp" capable receivers, like the recommended Onkyo 818... but they all seem to output only full range sound to all channels, no internal 24db built in crossovers. So that's all rather pointless if you don't have passive xo in your speakers. I'm sticking with active xo, so I've ordered the cx3210 electronic xo and have yet another receiver on the way to try.
Good point there for anyone trying to do something similar - the yammy receivers that have the multi-channel inputs on the back (many of them) will accept a signal loop back into the receiver, but then the surround dsp is automatically turned off... So that's a bummer, since I'd like to keep 5.1 surround as well. The trick then, is to get receivers with both a pre-out section and "main in" section, as this is where the signal loop needs to go back in. Only the top of the range yamahas have this feature apparently, and I don't see it on any of their current models. FYI, ymmv.
Jesse
Good point there for anyone trying to do something similar - the yammy receivers that have the multi-channel inputs on the back (many of them) will accept a signal loop back into the receiver, but then the surround dsp is automatically turned off... So that's a bummer, since I'd like to keep 5.1 surround as well. The trick then, is to get receivers with both a pre-out section and "main in" section, as this is where the signal loop needs to go back in. Only the top of the range yamahas have this feature apparently, and I don't see it on any of their current models. FYI, ymmv.
Jesse
Nice unit, as clean as you could want. I use one to drive an old 4 channel receiver.
A bit tricky to set up and you have to avoid pressing the wrong buttons on the back. Unless you trust the pretty silk-screened knob dial plates, you need to do set-up using REW. If you do so, gorgeous precise curves.
Having said that, makes no sense to me to get the CX3210 when for just a bit more you could get their amazing DSP, DCX2496.
B.
Thanks Ben, I would like to try REW at some point - for now it will probably just be dialed in "to-taste"... And how good that actually sounds will probably dictate how soon I get serious about using REW. The DCX2496 does look neat, though that's a lot more to learn/remember/keep track of...
and, "for just a bit more" are dangerous words indeed... For "just a bit more" I could have gotten higher end woofers, higher end full range drivers, birch ply, separate "real" amps, the DCX, or done expensive passive components for XO, and on and on...
A budget is a tough thing to stick to.
and, "for just a bit more" are dangerous words indeed... For "just a bit more" I could have gotten higher end woofers, higher end full range drivers, birch ply, separate "real" amps, the DCX, or done expensive passive components for XO, and on and on...
A budget is a tough thing to stick to.
Which needs all its analog bits changed out if you aren’t just using the digital parts.
dave
new CX2310 solved my issue, must have been a bad DBX xo.
CX2310 is not built to anywhere near the same standard as the older DBX, though both were made overseas.. the CX is more like a "walmart" version, less professional, less heavy duty.. but should hopefully work fine here.
** One great thing about it is that the side rack brackets unscrew right off, so it fits in a standard stereo console!
I ended up looking more at recievers and have yet another Yammy on the way... Trying to sort out how to have the XO in place interrupting the signal, for front left and right in stereo, but also to only affect the front l/r channels in 5.1 surround modes. Next thought is to cut into the primary receiver's loop at the main in coupler, but then run RCAs out of the multi-channel output, into the external decoder multichannel input of the 2nd receiver... so the 2nd receiver is effectively slaved to the first. Only the preamp on the 1st is used then, obviously.
CX2310 is not built to anywhere near the same standard as the older DBX, though both were made overseas.. the CX is more like a "walmart" version, less professional, less heavy duty.. but should hopefully work fine here.
** One great thing about it is that the side rack brackets unscrew right off, so it fits in a standard stereo console!
I ended up looking more at recievers and have yet another Yammy on the way... Trying to sort out how to have the XO in place interrupting the signal, for front left and right in stereo, but also to only affect the front l/r channels in 5.1 surround modes. Next thought is to cut into the primary receiver's loop at the main in coupler, but then run RCAs out of the multi-channel output, into the external decoder multichannel input of the 2nd receiver... so the 2nd receiver is effectively slaved to the first. Only the preamp on the 1st is used then, obviously.
Well, using external decoder inputs still has that receivers preamp in the loop, so that's not going to work... You'd have to adjust the volume on the 2nd receiver constantly to match the first, although at least the surround channels would all be correct and in sync.
So i may just have to break the loop at the coupler between main preout and main in on both receivers... That will work great in stereo, and in surround I just need both receivers in the same surround mode, probably just prologic.
Alternatively, might be able to use an AV switch in the loop. Have both main signal and l/r front signals coming into the switch, and have the output of that go thru the xo, and then out to the respective amps... whew, that got complicated...
Edit:
Might just be able to use the l/r front preout on the 1st receiver and run that thru the xo.. except then there's no way to route that signal back into the 1st receiver.. hmm.
So i may just have to break the loop at the coupler between main preout and main in on both receivers... That will work great in stereo, and in surround I just need both receivers in the same surround mode, probably just prologic.
Alternatively, might be able to use an AV switch in the loop. Have both main signal and l/r front signals coming into the switch, and have the output of that go thru the xo, and then out to the respective amps... whew, that got complicated...
Edit:
Might just be able to use the l/r front preout on the 1st receiver and run that thru the xo.. except then there's no way to route that signal back into the 1st receiver.. hmm.
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Thinking about it more, there might not be a way to have both stereo and surround bi-amped this way unless i modify the primary receiver... basically need to break the circuit to the left and right amps and add the xo/eq loop there.
Was really not wanting to perform any surgery... :/
Am i missing anything?
Was really not wanting to perform any surgery... :/
Am i missing anything?
The secondary receiver is an RX-V795a, here is the block diagram in the service manual:
Yamaha RX-V795a Service Manual (Page 41 of 70)
Maybe I could slave the 795 to the primary receiver by using the preamp outputs on the primary and connecting those to the 6 channel external decoder inputs on the second amp. Then either jumper across the volume control contacts so its out of the circuit, or just crank it to the max and then unplug the motor so that it's only manually adjustable? The active xo would then be only in the l/r main channels. Hmm, except then there's still no way to get the xo output signal back into the primary receiver... !
Yamaha RX-V795a Service Manual (Page 41 of 70)
Maybe I could slave the 795 to the primary receiver by using the preamp outputs on the primary and connecting those to the 6 channel external decoder inputs on the second amp. Then either jumper across the volume control contacts so its out of the circuit, or just crank it to the max and then unplug the motor so that it's only manually adjustable? The active xo would then be only in the l/r main channels. Hmm, except then there's still no way to get the xo output signal back into the primary receiver... !
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